***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[sfc415]

yah but this is why the problem. is so difficult to solve.

Progressive media and cultural institutions that regular people associate with the democratic party do promote it. and dems don't distance themselves from it.

LatinX is a good case study for this

- people start using it in hyper progressive online spaces
- Journalists who come from these spaces start using it in print, podcasts and tv.
- artists, television writers, media creators who are all progressives so they start using it in cultural productions. now you see it in movies and tv.
- politician staffers who are all progressive tell their candidate they need to use it.

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and then all of a sudden you have politicians saying Latinx.


and it turns out Latino voters HATE it.

Then the question is why it doesn’t work the other way around.

On paper, the Republican Party has a lot of values people can support, but over the past decade I’ve constantly been spammed with YouTube links of people crying about a 1 second lesbian kiss in Buzz Lightyear or having a black stormtrooper as proof of society being doomed, and people like Trump openly echo those sentiments.

If I were a Republican, I’d be embarrassed of being associated with those people as well. The truth is those types of beliefs are the dominant beliefs in this country, and IMO there’s no changing that. You just have to accept it and live with it or move to a different country if you have the means.

My wife’s gay brother refuses to go back to Indonesia because no matter how much activism and calls for equality take place by a chunk of the population, a homosexual East Asian will always be heavily discriminated against in that country.

We have to accept that this country will always be more like those types of countries and not like the Nordic/Western European countries Democrats idolize.

 

[mplsdunk]

Democrats just need to get back to the basics.

It’s not the governments job to tell us all to be nice to each other.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Then the question is why it doesn’t work the other way around.

On paper, the Republican Party has a lot of values people can support, but over the past decade I’ve constantly been spammed with YouTube links of people crying about a 1 second lesbian kiss in Buzz Lightyear or having a black stormtrooper as proof of society being doomed, and people like Trump openly echo those sentiments.

If I were a Republican, I’d be embarrassed of being associated with those people as well. The truth is those types of beliefs are the dominant beliefs in this country, and IMO there’s no changing that. You just have to accept it and live with it or move to a different country.

because of education polarization.

normal media institutions and cultural institutions are uniformly college educated progressive.

hype conservative content is ghettoized,


so normal people are for more likely to be exposed to Dems cultural overreach than Republicans. The guy who is crying about the black stormtrooper, mostly is serving a conservative audience.

but you can't escape Dem cultural stuff. because IT IS the culture.


Republicans face backlash when they implement laws, "don't say gay" or bathroom bans.

 

[1995]

Ready to leave the Bernie "Panacea" Sanders era in the past

 

[Magic33]

We were all young men once. be honest, if you weren't a politically ideological person...

do you really think you'd vibe with progressivism culturally?

doesn't mean you'd become MAGA. but like be serious for a sec.


the party of policing language, sensitivity, trigger warnings, and microaggressions and declared pronouns,

like is there any group of young men in the history of the planet where a majority would be into that?

imo democrats have been getting their vites despite that, and then inflation came along and finally the dam broke.

but the other side does the exact same. They just fake outrage and whine and play victim better.

 

[rolaholic]

For everyone who foolishly thought they're only gonna go after 'illegals/undocumented immigrants'...

 

[osh kosh bosh]

black people don't like this, latinos don't like it, NOBODY LIKES THIS ****.

if progressive cultural politics loses you black and latino people. something HAS TO CHANGE.

 

[sfc415]

We have to accept the truth behind “We are the silent majority.” Even growing up in the most liberal parts of the country, I’m sure most of us have faced racism and discrimination decades before Trump became president.

You are not going to be able to convince a 70%+ white and heavily Christian country to become open towards minorities, homosexuals, etc. as a whole. You can try your best, vote, and occasionally get a good Democrat president once in a while, but hoping for a consistent outcome based on promoting equality is foolish IMO. You will never be equal; just make your money and retire to somewhere more peaceful where people will at least leave you alone even if they don’t like you.

 

[Coupé It]

Was looking at the Northeast states.

God damn Trump got so many more votes than before.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

We have to accept the truth behind “We are the silent majority.” Even growing up in the most liberal parts of the country, I’m sure most of us have faced racism and discrimination decades before Trump became president.

You are not going to be able to convince a 70%+ white and heavily Christian country to become open towards minorities, homosexuals, etc. as a whole. You can try your best, vote, and occasionally get a good Democrat president once in a while, but hoping for a consistent outcome is foolish IMO.

I totally disagree,
people don't want discrimination, people like freedom and equality.

you just HAVE to keep it simple.


There is no majority that wants to discriminate against trans people or gay people.

but trans women in sports,? secretly gender transitioning children in schools? forcing people to say latinx to degender a language? Declaring pronouns? They/them?

this is where you lose people.


Democrats should always be the fairness, equality, anti discrimination party.

the just have to keep it simple.

 

[Beans]

Something not talked about enough is the corporate greed in this country. No tariff, no drilling is going to force these companies to lower their prices, now that they’ve already seen you are willing to pay 250 for Jordan 1s. There is too much priority placed on their success over the success of our citizens. How many bailouts do we have to endure to ensure they stay afloat but let someone offer to pay off student loans and ppl lose their minds. We have this inherent loyalty to their success as if it doesn’t go against fair market..

 

[Armada]

Then the question is why it doesn’t work the other way around.

On paper, the Republican Party has a lot of values people can support, but over the past decade I’ve constantly been spammed with YouTube links of people crying about a 1 second lesbian kiss in Buzz Lightyear or having a black stormtrooper as proof of society being doomed, and people like Trump openly echo those sentiments.

If I were a Republican, I’d be embarrassed of being associated with those people as well. The truth is those types of beliefs are the dominant beliefs in this country, and IMO there’s no changing that. You just have to accept it and live with it or move to a different country if you have the means.

My wife’s gay brother refuses to go back to Indonesia because no matter how much activism and calls for equality take place by a chunk of the population, a homosexual East Asian will always be heavily discriminated against in that country.

We have to accept that this country will always be more like those types of countries and not like the Nordic/Western European countries Democrats idolize.

This honestly speaks to my biggest concern with the idea of this is. I’m not ok with letting the right dominate the “culture war” like they’ve been doing cause all it’s doing is pushing is further away from progress and makes it easier to leave people behind from even getting the simple stuff they need. And I don’t trust certain decision makers on the left to talk less about marginalized groups in a way without forgetting them and kicking them off the bus all together let alone putting them at the back of the bus because that’s what they always do.

But I do admit it is a good point and a good idea to stop letting “activists” who spend way too much time online influence the conversation because of for no other reason people can’t control themselves and hyper focus on them even if it’s a small group. I talk about this a lot with my friends who get so annoyed by a “twitter all men are bozos and should be sent to gulags feminists” like why are you getting so worked up by someone who is just a chronically online weirdo it leads to you questioning the ideas of the women’s right movement in general and becoming apathetic to it?

But maybe there is a way to protect and not forget about marginalized groups by talking about them in ways average people can relate to by just keeping it general “they want job access and health care access just like any of us” you can still do all the other stuff one to one and protect more specific things behind the scenes but in public and out loud just keep it simple.

 

[1995]

I totally disagree,
people don't want discrimination, people like freedom and equality.

you just HAVE to keep it simple.


There is no majority that wants to discriminate against trans people or gay people.

but trans women in sports,? secretly gender transitioning children in schools? forcing people to say latinx to degender a language? Declaring pronouns? They/them?

this is where you lose people.


Democrats should always be the fairness, equality, anti discrimination party.

the just have to keep it simple.

What is this about?

 

[sfc415]

I totally disagree,
people don't want discrimination, people like freedom and equality.

you just HAVE to keep it simple.


There is no majority that wants to discriminate against trans people or gay people.

but trans women in sports,? secretly gender transitioning children in schools? forcing people to say latinx to degender a language? Declaring pronouns? They/them?

this is where you lose people.


Democrats should always be the fairness, equality, anti discrimination party.

the just have to keep it simple.

Extreme discrimination against those groups existed far before any of that. Maybe because you lived in a more peaceful society than ours at the time, but that’s not the reality most of us faced growing up in the US AT ALL.

All those topics you mentioned started popping up in early-mid 2010s?

I was born in 1989. I remember racist attacks and homophobic insults being commonplace since I was in kindergarten, even in the most liberal area of the entire country. Gay and transgender people being murdered was common news back then.

I went to a majority white high school and university where racism wasn’t openly accepted by staff but wasn’t uncommon at all among the student population either.

I’ve grown up knowing the majority of white people in this country are racist, violent, or at best apathetic towards minorities. It’s the reality of this country, and people need to remember that before talking about this is not my America.

 

[biggie62]

For everyone who foolishly thought they're only gonna go after 'illegals/undocumented immigrants'...

Thankfully I’m a white naturalized citizen. If I was not I’d def be more worried.

Question becomes what do they do to those naturalized who gave up their other citizenship? Those countries will not take them back or that occurs in pretty sure.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

Democrats just need to get back to the basics.

It’s not the governments job to tell us all to be nice to each other.

This is really it. Most white dudes I know mostly roll their eyes at the Trans stuff. But they are all completely convinced that they have the toughest path towards success. They hate this stuff in the workplace.

They *hate* programs that try to identify and promote talent among women and minorities. That view it as fundamentally unfair and non-meritocratic. Like every white dude I know - even the “liberals” - have an example of someone who got where they are “because they are…”

So if you want white men (and their wives) back in the leftist fold, you’re going to have to accept that we’ve seen the high water mark for gender and racial equality. They get annoyed by a black little mermaid, but they are moved to action when they think someone is getting what they deserve.

At this point, I think that it’s probably the right trade. The political left needs to stop defending these programs, stop talking about wage gaps, stop doing anything that angers white people. Because, in the end, there are way more of them and they can achieve whatever outcomes they want democratically. The Civil Rights era is completely over. Hopefully, we have enough people in the right places that we can continue to progress silently through informal networks. Because if we don’t voluntarily remove those programs, “centrist” whites are going to caucus with their Stormfront style racist brethren to do it anyways.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

What is this about?

there is this idea that if a child in a school says they are trans
wants to be called by a different name and pronouns
and doesn't want to tell their parents.

the school should facilitate this transition and hide it from the parents.


many progressives defend this idea. in fact people on NT defended this idea when it came up.


it is pure political poison.

 

[1995]

How the ACLU Will Fight Four More Years of Trump

During the first Donald Trump administration, the ACLU fought his unlawful policies more than 400 times. We’re even more prepared now.

www.aclu.org

 

[Armada]

black people don't like this, latinos don't like it, NOBODY LIKES THIS ****.

if progressive cultural politics loses you black and latino people. something HAS TO CHANGE.

This the part of this convo that does bother me. Maybe I’m too focused on the framing of this but I hate the framing. It’s not that identity politics don’t work it’s that identity politics that aren’t white identity politics struggle to make ground because white identity politics dominate the conversation in this country and always has. White identity politics in this country has never had a problem working.

 

[nonnative]

I had this exact training

But every corporate job has these trainings yearly. Let’s keep it , if we had normal people before us working at this companies you wouldn’t need to have these trainings. But people do dumb **** so they are created for that reason alone. That’s the thing people forget.

So many people miss this point. I have to do plenty of those types of things in my job and I don't like them and I get why people don't like them.

But people conflating these with being "woke" or because of people pushing a progressive agenda have it completely wrong. These are corporations covering their own ****** from potential lawsuits so that when Billy Bob in middle management decides to throw a "Fried chicken and watermelon cookout", they can say "We gave you the training" before firing him.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This the part of this convo that does bother me. Maybe I’m too focused on the framing of this but I hate the framing. It’s not that identity politics don’t work it’s that identity politics that aren’t white identity politics struggle to make ground because white identity politics dominate the conversation in this country and always has. White identity politics in this country has never had a problem working.

Dems have gone all in on progressive minority identity politics, and they are losing minority votes.
every election they lose more minority votes.

you can dismiss donald trump as white identity politics working
but he did try to appeal to black voters, he did tried to appeal to latinos.

and he assembled a multi racial working class coalition. it worked.

 

[rolaholic]

I really don't see how these influencers on the left have any pull at all with the actual party enough to be made out to be this boogeyman and discussed like they actually have real sway on Dems

They set the agenda and discourse on the right but that hasn't ever been the case for the centre-left. Party insiders and leadership set the partys course.

Would love to see actual proof of the national or even state level democratic party insisting on 'latinx', forced sex changes, forcing pronouns and all the other alarmist fear mongering from the right. Feels like the same tired culture war propaganda where they use extreme outliers to paint the other side with a broad 'extremist' brush which they aim at the lowest common denominator.

Your chronically online 'pink haired weirdo' or twitch streamer isn't calling ANY shots at the policy level or at any stage of electoral politics . How they're being held more responsible for a losing campaign that ran completely counter to their preferred positions than the revolving door of failed consultants and strategists who push losing strategies and still stick around in the party orbit is weird

Feels much more like personal grievances rather than anything rooted in the Democratic parties campaign choices in real life...

 

[osh kosh bosh]

These are corporations covering their own ****** from potential lawsuits so that when Billy Bob in middle management decides to throw a "Fried chicken and watermelon cookout", they can say "We gave you the training" before firing him.

i agree its corporations covering their ***.

but who are they covering their *** in fear of?
Progressive cultural elites.


people I think accurately look at this as cynical bs to appeal to the sensibilities of a college educated class.

 

[elpablo21]

This is really it. Most white dudes I know mostly roll their eyes at the Trans stuff. But they are all completely convinced that they have the toughest path towards success. They hate this stuff in the workplace.

They *hate* programs that try to identify and promote talent among women and minorities. That view it as fundamentally unfair and non-meritocratic. Like every white dude I know - even the “liberals” - have an example of someone who got where they are “because they are…”

So if you want white men (and their wives) back in the leftist fold, you’re going to have to accept that we’ve seen the high water mark for gender and racial equality. They get annoyed by a black little mermaid, but they are moved to action when they think someone is getting what they deserve.

At this point, I think that it’s probably the right trade. The political left needs to stop defending these programs, stop talking about wage gaps, stop doing anything that angers white people. Because, in the end, there are way more of them and they can achieve whatever outcomes they want democratically. The Civil Rights era is completely over. Hopefully, we have enough people in the right places that we can continue to progress silently through informal networks. Because if we don’t voluntarily remove those programs, “centrist” whites are going to caucus with their Stormfront style racist brethren to do it anyways.

DNC 2028: Bend the knee to the fragility of white men.

Hey if it works it works I guess

 

[rolaholic]

This is really it. Most white dudes I know mostly roll their eyes at the Trans stuff. But they are all completely convinced that they have the toughest path towards success. They hate this stuff in the workplace.

They *hate* programs that try to identify and promote talent among women and minorities. That view it as fundamentally unfair and non-meritocratic. Like every white dude I know - even the “liberals” - have an example of someone who got where they are “because they are…”

So if you want white men (and their wives) back in the leftist fold, you’re going to have to accept that we’ve seen the high water mark for gender and racial equality. They get annoyed by a black little mermaid, but they are moved to action when they think someone is getting what they deserve.

At this point, I think that it’s probably the right trade. The political left needs to stop defending these programs, stop talking about wage gaps, stop doing anything that angers white people. Because, in the end, there are way more of them and they can achieve whatever outcomes they want democratically. The Civil Rights era is completely over. Hopefully, we have enough people in the right places that we can continue to progress silently through informal networks. Because if we don’t voluntarily remove those programs, “centrist” whites are going to caucus with their Stormfront style racist brethren to do it anyways.

At this stage, what kind of country do people wanna live in if this is a takeaway?

If this was heeded to, the country would've never gotten through slavery honestly let alone Jim Crow if the fear of angering white people was peoples primary motivating factor politically

Sounds awfully defeatist for non-whites, basically 'accept nihilism because nothing can ever get better because of white people'. Don't think that's a winning outlook or strategy long term