ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION - What's your position NT?

[thegoldenchild]

Originally Posted by likethematrix

you guys are missing the entire point so ima make it brief.

Illegal immigrants should not be kicked out just for being illegal.
they should be kicked out due to the negative effect on the economy that used to have structure.

alot of you in support of illegal immigrants keep spewing this nonsense about "they do jobs americans dont want to do."
that is only half true.
the full quote should be: "They do jobs americans wont do FOR THE PRICE THAT AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT WILL DO IT FOR."

emphasis on "Price"

lets use mexico and mexican immigrants as the model.

one US Dollar is equal to how man Pesos?

if youre coming from a place where you had no money and need money just to eat for the night to survive, you will accept ANY payment for a job offered.
Humans, by nature, seek to gain the most for the least amount.
so they turn from licensed, bonded, and american Landscapers/painter/field hands/gardeners/seamstresses/car washers.
they charge way too much. they have overhead costs, health care plans, corporate taxes, workers insurance.
it would be impossible for them to charge less than their bottom line costs.
so they charge $50+ to mow your lawn, trim your hedges, and take care of your plants.

BUT............

there are these guys who will do it for $20.
they have ok tools at best, just a regular truck, no real base of operations, pretty much nothing but themselves and their truck and tools.


which one do you pick america?
$20 bucks.

now Tim down the street heard that you only pay $20 dollars. He's gotta get that deal too. the 30 he saves can go towards his vintage car he's restoring.
Tim is good friends with bill and jeff and tom and jerry.
they all gotta get this deal too.

america the land of the free landscaping has just lost an entire block and $300 monthly. he cannot make it any more. he's gotta fire a few friends.
he's gotta get rid of the store front.

We dont really speak english too well nor care to landscaping just made $100 between 3 people. time for tecate.


NOW MULTIPLY THIS BY 3/5 NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE US.
and change landscaping to picking fruit or washing cars....


you cant be this blind to ignore these facts.

THESE ARE UNDENIABLE FACTS.

and how can you blindly believe MSNBC's facts and figures and not take mines into account?
cause they are on tv?

sorry brah.. i stopped reading after "Illegal immigrants should not be kicked out just for being illegal." your whole post doesnt mean anything after you said that

then why are they called illegal immigrants? because they are in the country when they arent even allowed. whats the point of having a system when it's not even used... i think you should go to bed

 

[anotherprodigy]

It is less a race issue as it is a class divide. You are living too close to the issue to be able to objectively see how problematic illegal immigration is to the American society. But, I am sure you would if a greater flood of illegal immigration cuts the price of labor in half and your family no longer can subsist and exist in society. Do you think it would be acceptable if I told every family in India to just cross the border because they are struggling and everybody else is doing it. No, you do not believe that is acceptable because your family is already in America and that is where your interests lie (mine would be the same if I had family here under the same conditions).

Finally, I do not see a direct correlation between unjust laws repressing solely African-American's civil rights and laws that are extended to every inhabitant inside America's circumference. African-Americans were arrested for being black citizens. Illegal immigrants are arrested for wanting to be citizens but not wanting to follow the proper procedure. Blacks were civilly disobedient as American citizens. Illegal immigrants are foreign criminals (albeit for good reason). The two segments are exclusive and not synonymous. Blacks were forbade certain rights because of race. Illegal immigrants are permitted to immigrate as long as they follow the same guidelines as everyone else. One is blatant discrimination and oppression, while the latter sounds more like equality.

You choose the greener pastures then you must accept the dry patches like the rest of us. How is that asking too much, being unfair, or a racist?

 

[anotherprodigy]

It is less a race issue as it is a class divide. You are living too close to the issue to be able to objectively see how problematic illegal immigration is to the American society. But, I am sure you would if a greater flood of illegal immigration cuts the price of labor in half and your family no longer can subsist and exist in society. Do you think it would be acceptable if I told every family in India to just cross the border because they are struggling and everybody else is doing it. No, you do not believe that is acceptable because your family is already in America and that is where your interests lie (mine would be the same if I had family here under the same conditions).

Finally, I do not see a direct correlation between unjust laws repressing solely African-American's civil rights and laws that are extended to every inhabitant inside America's circumference. African-Americans were arrested for being black citizens. Illegal immigrants are arrested for wanting to be citizens but not wanting to follow the proper procedure. Blacks were civilly disobedient as American citizens. Illegal immigrants are foreign criminals (albeit for good reason). The two segments are exclusive and not synonymous. Blacks were forbade certain rights because of race. Illegal immigrants are permitted to immigrate as long as they follow the same guidelines as everyone else. One is blatant discrimination and oppression, while the latter sounds more like equality.

You choose the greener pastures then you must accept the dry patches like the rest of us. How is that asking too much, being unfair, or a racist?

 

[tkthafm]

I view it as a natural side effect to all the US marauding and meddling across the world. Pundits will over hype the problems caused by immigrants, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not very high up on the list in terms of problems we face. I have nothing but respect for those who come here to work hard legally or not. That said, I do believe a sovereign nation should have control over its borders and who it grants citizenship/residence to. Will the US ever get serious about things and commit to actual reform from the top down ? I doubt it. Demographics are rapidly changing here in the US and global power is shifting into new hands.

I ain't even mad.

 

[tkthafm]

I view it as a natural side effect to all the US marauding and meddling across the world. Pundits will over hype the problems caused by immigrants, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not very high up on the list in terms of problems we face. I have nothing but respect for those who come here to work hard legally or not. That said, I do believe a sovereign nation should have control over its borders and who it grants citizenship/residence to. Will the US ever get serious about things and commit to actual reform from the top down ? I doubt it. Demographics are rapidly changing here in the US and global power is shifting into new hands.

I ain't even mad.

 

[anotherprodigy]

Originally Posted by Nike Jordan

The fact that people think 3% of the population is ruining America is high comedy.

  The fact that you do not realize that 3% (or low minority) of the population controls most of the resources and power in America is high comedy.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

I view it as a natural side effect to all the US marauding and meddling across the world. Pundits will over hype the problems caused by immigrants, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not very high up on the list in terms of problems we face. I have nothing but respect for those who come here to work hard legally or not. That said, I do believe a sovereign nation should have control over its borders and who it grants citizenship/residence to. Will the US ever get serious about things and commit to actual reform from the top down ? I doubt it. Demographics are rapidly changing here in the US and global power is shifting into new hands.

I ain't even mad.

it doesnt even have anything to do with border control anymore. all you need to do is buy a plane ticket, come with a tourist visa and just get lost. how can they ever track you or find you? they cant. there is nothing the US can do about it. In my opinion they should just remove all of the immigration laws, and let everyone come in who wants to, as long as they abide by the rules and pay their taxes. half of the country's money comes from illegals, and it will also force lazy !$# people to work, because if they wont take that garbageman job, the illegals will, means no money for the citizen cause he doesnt want the job.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

I view it as a natural side effect to all the US marauding and meddling across the world. Pundits will over hype the problems caused by immigrants, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not very high up on the list in terms of problems we face. I have nothing but respect for those who come here to work hard legally or not. That said, I do believe a sovereign nation should have control over its borders and who it grants citizenship/residence to. Will the US ever get serious about things and commit to actual reform from the top down ? I doubt it. Demographics are rapidly changing here in the US and global power is shifting into new hands.

I ain't even mad.

it doesnt even have anything to do with border control anymore. all you need to do is buy a plane ticket, come with a tourist visa and just get lost. how can they ever track you or find you? they cant. there is nothing the US can do about it. In my opinion they should just remove all of the immigration laws, and let everyone come in who wants to, as long as they abide by the rules and pay their taxes. half of the country's money comes from illegals, and it will also force lazy !$# people to work, because if they wont take that garbageman job, the illegals will, means no money for the citizen cause he doesnt want the job.

 

[anotherprodigy]

Originally Posted by Nike Jordan

The fact that people think 3% of the population is ruining America is high comedy.

  The fact that you do not realize that 3% (or low minority) of the population controls most of the resources and power in America is high comedy.

 

[wren32]

Get rid of them now. They are a financial burden to the U.S. I am all for legal immigration because that's how majority of us got here. But there is a right way to do things. At least 95% of all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. More and more come here daily and it's only getting worse for us. We need to crack down on this problem ASAP.

 

[wren32]

Get rid of them now. They are a financial burden to the U.S. I am all for legal immigration because that's how majority of us got here. But there is a right way to do things. At least 95% of all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. More and more come here daily and it's only getting worse for us. We need to crack down on this problem ASAP.

 

[thentguy]

illegal not suppose to be here plan and simple go back

 

[thentguy]

illegal not suppose to be here plan and simple go back

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Originally Posted by tkthafm

I view it as a natural side effect to all the US marauding and meddling across the world. Pundits will over hype the problems caused by immigrants, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not very high up on the list in terms of problems we face. I have nothing but respect for those who come here to work hard legally or not. That said, I do believe a sovereign nation should have control over its borders and who it grants citizenship/residence to. Will the US ever get serious about things and commit to actual reform from the top down ? I doubt it. Demographics are rapidly changing here in the US and global power is shifting into new hands.

I ain't even mad.

it doesnt even have anything to do with border control anymore. all you need to do is buy a plane ticket, come with a tourist visa and just get lost. how can they ever track you or find you? they cant. there is nothing the US can do about it. In my opinion they should just remove all of the immigration laws, and let everyone come in who wants to, as long as they abide by the rules and pay their taxes. half of the country's money comes from illegals, and it will also force lazy !$# people to work, because if they wont take that garbageman job, the illegals will, means no money for the citizen cause he doesnt want the job.

Do you have data on how large the % of immigrants who overstay visas is vs those who get in without a visa in the first place ? Just curious.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Originally Posted by tkthafm

I view it as a natural side effect to all the US marauding and meddling across the world. Pundits will over hype the problems caused by immigrants, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not very high up on the list in terms of problems we face. I have nothing but respect for those who come here to work hard legally or not. That said, I do believe a sovereign nation should have control over its borders and who it grants citizenship/residence to. Will the US ever get serious about things and commit to actual reform from the top down ? I doubt it. Demographics are rapidly changing here in the US and global power is shifting into new hands.

I ain't even mad.

it doesnt even have anything to do with border control anymore. all you need to do is buy a plane ticket, come with a tourist visa and just get lost. how can they ever track you or find you? they cant. there is nothing the US can do about it. In my opinion they should just remove all of the immigration laws, and let everyone come in who wants to, as long as they abide by the rules and pay their taxes. half of the country's money comes from illegals, and it will also force lazy !$# people to work, because if they wont take that garbageman job, the illegals will, means no money for the citizen cause he doesnt want the job.

Do you have data on how large the % of immigrants who overstay visas is vs those who get in without a visa in the first place ? Just curious.

 

[laker4lifeman]

Originally Posted by wren32

Get rid of them now. They are a financial burden to the U.S. I am all for legal immigration because that's how majority of us got here. But there is a right way to do things. At least 95% of all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. More and more come here daily and it's only getting worse for us. We need to crack down on this problem ASAP.

I'm not even mexican

 

[laker4lifeman]

Originally Posted by wren32

Get rid of them now. They are a financial burden to the U.S. I am all for legal immigration because that's how majority of us got here. But there is a right way to do things. At least 95% of all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. More and more come here daily and it's only getting worse for us. We need to crack down on this problem ASAP.

I'm not even mexican

 

[8tothe24]

Originally Posted by laker4lifeman

Originally Posted by wren32

Get rid of them now. They are a financial burden to the U.S. I am all for legal immigration because that's how majority of us got here. But there is a right way to do things. At least 95% of all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. More and more come here daily and it's only getting worse for us. We need to crack down on this problem ASAP.

I'm not even mexican

Correct number is 62%... still a drastically large number.

 

[8tothe24]

Originally Posted by laker4lifeman

Originally Posted by wren32

Get rid of them now. They are a financial burden to the U.S. I am all for legal immigration because that's how majority of us got here. But there is a right way to do things. At least 95% of all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. More and more come here daily and it's only getting worse for us. We need to crack down on this problem ASAP.

I'm not even mexican

Correct number is 62%... still a drastically large number.

 

[xzstrikaxz]

@Therealprodigy You missed my point a little. I am NOT comparing african american struggles with equality to those of immigrants, I am comparing the fact that just like immigration law , there were laws and "procedures" that were to be followed, that did not make them RIGHT. I disagree with me being to close to be objective, I am American but understand i am a product of illegal immigration. Perhaps you are not close enough to the subject to understand the other side, I see both. If you read what I wrote, I stated DISAGREE with cheap labor but the laws in place arent made to fix that problem. Outsourcing is a bigger problem, we should address both. I also previously stated that I think we should protect the borders, which means I do not encourage people to continue to come in because then it would create real problems. I do am asking for what is FAIR, too many people speak on legal processes as if they understood them, they would realize how ignorant it is to simply say "do it the legal way". Many cannot afford the legal way, many do not know the legal way, and the people who are here do not want to risk being deported by filing a legal application. We should be seeking immigration reform that encourages the legal process. The reality is that not everyone could be here, but those who have made it here and made this place theyre home should have a real opportunity to continue to live here (X amount of years, clean record, community service, ect. ). What I am arguing for is the people who are here for years, work hard, and are good citizens. Maybe the law has a label for people like me, Ive been here since a baby, this is the country I call home, next year ill be a citizen , but that doesnt mean im any different. The law and federal "labels", do not make an American. BTW do not feel like I am attacking you, I just respect your debate unlike many of these ignorant posters who should just be ignored.

 

[xzstrikaxz]

@Therealprodigy You missed my point a little. I am NOT comparing african american struggles with equality to those of immigrants, I am comparing the fact that just like immigration law , there were laws and "procedures" that were to be followed, that did not make them RIGHT. I disagree with me being to close to be objective, I am American but understand i am a product of illegal immigration. Perhaps you are not close enough to the subject to understand the other side, I see both. If you read what I wrote, I stated DISAGREE with cheap labor but the laws in place arent made to fix that problem. Outsourcing is a bigger problem, we should address both. I also previously stated that I think we should protect the borders, which means I do not encourage people to continue to come in because then it would create real problems. I do am asking for what is FAIR, too many people speak on legal processes as if they understood them, they would realize how ignorant it is to simply say "do it the legal way". Many cannot afford the legal way, many do not know the legal way, and the people who are here do not want to risk being deported by filing a legal application. We should be seeking immigration reform that encourages the legal process. The reality is that not everyone could be here, but those who have made it here and made this place theyre home should have a real opportunity to continue to live here (X amount of years, clean record, community service, ect. ). What I am arguing for is the people who are here for years, work hard, and are good citizens. Maybe the law has a label for people like me, Ive been here since a baby, this is the country I call home, next year ill be a citizen , but that doesnt mean im any different. The law and federal "labels", do not make an American. BTW do not feel like I am attacking you, I just respect your debate unlike many of these ignorant posters who should just be ignored.

 

[anotherprodigy]

Trust me, I can respect your outlook on the situation. I definitely distorted that comparison a bit. However, you should always remember that is the risk you take when you make comparisons. Instead of focusing on your intentions of the comparison, people will go through great lengths to disprove it by stating its an apples to oranges comparison. I try to refrain from comparing after experiencing that scenario time and time again (and now I'm the culprit

).

Also, as I've said multiple times, I really think I'd have the identical perspective as you if I grew up in that situation. However, I was curious to see if you could step out of your situation and into one of our shoes and see how you'd might feel. I think this is how we will come up with a solution... as a collective I really think you tried and I respect that. I'm in a similar situation when I think about urban crime, specifically drug-dealing. People seem to look at it in a simplified and one-dimensional way as the do immigration. I have friends who have gotten themselves into the system as early as 12yrs old. Many would blame their parents. But, many of us came from single parent homes, both black and white. A single and struggling mother can not control the actions of her child while she is working a second-shift. You may say, what about the father. The kid makes the decision, but in many ways they are victims of their circumstances and environment. I feel like I slipped through the cracks of cement.

 

[anotherprodigy]

Trust me, I can respect your outlook on the situation. I definitely distorted that comparison a bit. However, you should always remember that is the risk you take when you make comparisons. Instead of focusing on your intentions of the comparison, people will go through great lengths to disprove it by stating its an apples to oranges comparison. I try to refrain from comparing after experiencing that scenario time and time again (and now I'm the culprit

).

Also, as I've said multiple times, I really think I'd have the identical perspective as you if I grew up in that situation. However, I was curious to see if you could step out of your situation and into one of our shoes and see how you'd might feel. I think this is how we will come up with a solution... as a collective I really think you tried and I respect that. I'm in a similar situation when I think about urban crime, specifically drug-dealing. People seem to look at it in a simplified and one-dimensional way as the do immigration. I have friends who have gotten themselves into the system as early as 12yrs old. Many would blame their parents. But, many of us came from single parent homes, both black and white. A single and struggling mother can not control the actions of her child while she is working a second-shift. You may say, what about the father. The kid makes the decision, but in many ways they are victims of their circumstances and environment. I feel like I slipped through the cracks of cement.

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by anotherprodigy

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

@ all the closet racists in here.

  You're going to derail this discussion. Now, people will spend more time claiming to be "melting pots of friendship!!"  Pointless, since most of the people in here haven't said anything remotely racist.

your kidding right? most of the people against illegal immigrants have racists undertones. homeboy said he went in a store and asked an illegal where something was and dude didnt understand him....how did he know he was illegal??? did he have a shirt on that said he was illegal? come on now...

you might aswell substitute mexican in place of illegal immigrant because thats basically what this thread is about.

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by anotherprodigy

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

@ all the closet racists in here.

  You're going to derail this discussion. Now, people will spend more time claiming to be "melting pots of friendship!!"  Pointless, since most of the people in here haven't said anything remotely racist.

your kidding right? most of the people against illegal immigrants have racists undertones. homeboy said he went in a store and asked an illegal where something was and dude didnt understand him....how did he know he was illegal??? did he have a shirt on that said he was illegal? come on now...

you might aswell substitute mexican in place of illegal immigrant because thats basically what this thread is about.