* Offiical NBA Off-Season Thread: I'll give one of my damn kidney's for these Melo rumors to stop *

[proshares]

I'm tired of this Bosh/Gasol/Dirk/Duncan debate. I don't know why I keep entertaining it.

 

[CP1708]

Ugh, please no more Mike Rice pics.  I shoulda punched old dude when I saw him.  lol

Friend of mine said Wheels is actually alright though.  Said that Wheels told him he was paid by the Blazers, so he had to back them 100% no matter what.  I don't agree with that really, kinda like how Steve Stone and Chip Caray got fired in 04 for calling out the Cubs, I like that better, but at least I can understand why Wheels acts the way he does. 



I dunno Pro, I kinda like the PF convo.  4 guys, different distinct styles for them, it's interesting to an extent. 

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by CP1708

So I'm mindin my own damn business yesterday, I'm at work, just let me get thru my day whatever whatever, and I turn around, boom, some dude in my face.  "The hell do you want?" 
"You see the Blazer game last night?"

"You see Wes Mathews, he looked pretty good."
*sigh*

Dude walks away........one problem, 'nother fool right behind him. 
"You see the Blazers last night?"

Jesus.  So I look around, people started comin up to me left and right, looked like a damn line at a kissing booth.  @#$% outta here you idiots. 

Time to go home, jump in the car, yup, radio is all ablaze.  "Lamarcus Aldrige has turned the corner"  "Wes Mathews was sensational last night, that's what this team needs"  Rudy Fernandez is playin hard, hittin shots......" 

So I get fed up, start callin folks, "hey great, Wes Mathews is the deal huh, where he startin at, 2-guard?" 
"Uhhh, what?" 
"Oh yeah, Roy, so he startin at the small forward spot then?"
"Welllllll....."
"On, no, Batum is there.  Ok, so Wes Mathews is the key, and he sits the bench, makin 34 million dollars, ok great"  "Next subject, Rudy, how many points he have last night?"
"15"
"How many 3's he hit?"
"5"
"aaaahhhhh, ok, that tells me all I need then, Rudy didn't cross the 3 point line all night, he won't go to the bucket in the first preseason game of the year, against the Clippers no less, then he ain't goin to the bucket in the playoffs, you're done"

And you people on NT think I make this garbage up. 

   These @#$%^%$#@#$% were in the middle of a playoff no hitter, they have the #3 ranked college football team in the country, and they were wall to wall phone call after phone call, can't get no damn work done at work because of them, Blazers talk after ONE GOD DAMN PRESEASON GAME VS THE CLIPPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Give me a damn break.  Then I find this, from Rudy's agent........

First of all, I don't think anybody has the right to make fun or joking about a human being wishes and desires, and nobody can evaluate how fine or how sad a human being is being far from home, friends and culture. Nobody can blame any little thing about Rudy practice and attitude. He has been playing in every practice that he could.

He apologize to the staff and to the owner if anything he said hurted them during the summer... Also, as he said, is not getting used to the NBA system, he likes the European style of game better.

In my personal opinion, NBA and the Union have to find new rules that adjust the relationships between NBA franchise and the rest of the world.

Ya see, Rudy, misses mommy.  He wants to go home.  Oh, and the NBA is too hard for him, he gets hit if he crosses the 3 point line, Rudy no likey. 

The entertainment I get from these morons is top notch.  But sometimes I just wish they would get a clue.  Then you guys wouldn't call me a damn hater so much, like it's my fault they come up with this stupid stuff.  I honestly, on my life, had a dude ask me if I thought they Blazers could win the championship this year.  He was dead serious.  And when I laughed in his face, he had hurt feelings or something.  These people just do not understand.  They have no idea.  They probably don't even know who the Heat got this year. 

  I wish ya'll could come hang out with me here for a day and just watch the people, then maybe you would see. 

End rant. 


JA, later on I'll comment on what you said about Sheed.  I agreed with you for the most part.  He coulda been one special player imo.  I'll get to it in a while. 

I usually cringe when this guy goes into Portland hate mode but

CP comes through he's now batting .100

As far as the Dirk thing, I didn't get a chance to respond yesterday but I never said Pau or anyone is better than Dirk. It's simply a preference, and it's one of those rare cases where the "worse" player will get you further. I'm not trying to convince anyone who's better I'm just explaining why I'd choose Pau over him. Plus we're in agreement that Dirk isn't worlds better than Pau, so with that assumption the fact that Pau is a better interior player, defender, rebounder and passer gives him the edge.

I could see how others would be enamored with the big scoring numbers and the fireworks from deep, but if I could go with a big man who could score from mid-range and in the paint and have high IQ and defend the paint? I'm going with the latter.

Let's get a few things straight:
-We're not talking about the distant past, we're talking today right?
-If we are talking history then-- Pau never had what Dirk has had while he was in Memphis albiet Pau was soft as wet tissue paper he still did manage to take that sorry Memphis team to 2 or 3 50 win seasons
-After being molested by Boston in 2008 I think it's apparent the man put in work to condition his body for playoff basketball. He's basically like a center now who has an efficient mid-range game.
-Pau had never touched a weight in his life before coming to LA

Bottom line: Pau has transformed himself into a guy who can do battle with anyone in the most clutch situations, even without another big man beside him [Bynum has been limited the past three playoff runs with that bum knee of his]. Dirk may be the better player/Batman whatever but I would take Pau over him in a heartbeat. And I wouldn't be surprised if you put Pau on Dallas the past 4 years and come out with at least the same result as Dirk has: first round exit 3 of the past 4 years.

 

[pmatic]

Well Duncan is a center these days, so we can take him out of the convo.

 

[proshares]

Originally Posted by CP1708

I dunno Pro, I kinda like the PF convo.  4 guys, different distinct styles for them, it's interesting to an extent. 

I feel like I argued that !*!+ all summer man, I'm worn out

.  Some people are just completely stuck in their opinions that they refuse to even entertain any outside thoughts on the discussion.

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by Proshares

Originally Posted by CP1708

I dunno Pro, I kinda like the PF convo.  4 guys, different distinct styles for them, it's interesting to an extent. 

I feel like I argued that !*!+ all summer man, I'm worn out

.  Some people are just completely stuck in their opinions that they refuse to even entertain any outside thoughts on the discussion.

What was your opinion, I'm just curious. I missed out on that convo during the summer, and then when I posted something everyone just went into internet mode with the 'OMGZ I won't even respond to how stupid that is'. Was my fault since I didn't fully flesh out my point, but I'd like to hear a calm argument not from any Dallas fans who apparently like sitting at home after the first round.

 

[proshares]

Right now out of those 4 PF's, I'd rank em 1a Bosh 1b Dirk 3 Gasol 4 Duncan. Not as a whole just if I had to rank the top PF's where we stand today. Not saying there's that much separating 4 from 1 just my general opinion on the matter. I guess 5 would be Amare because the Knick fan in me won't let him slip out of the top 5

 

[N41D]

Pau is a better defender?

They both suck, so who cares. Better rebounder? Even if he is, it's not by any real margin.

Better passer? Meh... Dirk has an entire offense run ENTIRELY through him and has for a decade now. Consistently one of the better offensive teams in basketball despite not ever having a #2 that could take pressure off him. Dirk has made a career out of finding open guys out of double and triple teams, so whatever.

If you swapped Pau and Dirk Dallas gets the same results? Do you really not think that works just the same for the Lakers, too? It's easy to say Pau is better now because he's not being run off the ball with double teams hardly ever. You can't leave Bynum. You can't leave Kobe. You can't leave Ron or LO or Fisher for 3... It's an entirely different dynamic that Pau is working out of now...


If you haven't paid attention, Dirk isn't the hover around the three-point line big he was in 2002... He plays almost exclusively from the charity stripe in now... Plays face-up basketball from the high-post and the blocks. No, he's not a traditional big but he's not the guy he was in 2002 either. For a guy that hovers the perimeter and doesn't work inside, what does it say that he's shooting 200+ more free throws than Pau last year?

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Bosh is the other guy I'd take ahead of Dirk. Once again it's just styles. Once you start comparing the cream of the crop styles come into play.

Also Dirk better get out of the first round this year as long as they stay healthy

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Pau is a better defender?

They both suck, so who cares. Better rebounder? Even if he is, it's not by any real margin.

Better passer? Meh... Dirk has an entire offense run ENTIRELY through him and has for a decade now. Consistently one of the better offensive teams in basketball despite not ever having a #2 that could take pressure off him. Dirk has made a career out of finding open guys out of double and triple teams, so whatever.

If you swapped Pau and Dirk Dallas gets the same results? Do you really not think that works just the same for the Lakers, too? It's easy to say Pau is better now because he's not being run off the ball with double teams hardly ever. You can't leave Bynum. You can't leave Kobe. You can't leave Ron or LO or Fisher for 3... It's an entirely different dynamic that Pau is working out of now...


If you haven't paid attention, Dirk isn't the hover around the three-point line big he was in 2002... He plays almost exclusively from the charity stripe in now... Plays face-up basketball from the high-post and the blocks. No, he's not a traditional big but he's not the guy he was in 2002 either. For a guy that hovers the perimeter and doesn't work inside, what does it say that he's shooting 200+ more free throws than Pau last year?

Watching the playoffs the last two years, Pau playing without Andrew, yeah Pau is a much better defender than Dirk these days.

Rebounding I give the edge to Pau as well, not even based off stats. If you look who's constantly in the mix and in better position, it's going to be Pau.

He hovers on the perimeter, not just the three-point line

Don't want my big guy doing that to that extent.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Consistently one of the better offensive teams in basketball despite not ever having a #2 that could take pressure off him.

Steve Nash, Devin Harris, and Jason Kidd as his point guards have helped him out with a "top offensive team" 

Dallas has had a lot of offensive weapons over the years.  Nick, Finley, Jamison, Stack, Terry, the 3 PG's I named, lotta offensive talent this decade. 

Not saying one way or the other, just on the offensive team the past decade was what I was speaking on. 

 

[N41D]

I'll give you Nash... But Devin Harris, really? Kidd sucks. Dribble up, pass to Dirk, stand on the three point line and shoot an open look. Even when the guy gets in the paint, he dribbles through the middle of the paint and under the rim and back out the baseline.. He SUCKS on that end of the court.

Dallas has not had a legitimate #2 guy since Nash left, and for obvious reasons those two were never gonna work under Nellie. Van Exel and Terry are fine as 3s or 4s, but neither was ever consistent here. Finley was on the downside by the time they finally got this thing rolling.. Stackhouse was fine for a year or so, but he lost his legs and fell in love with shooting jumpers, which he was never good at here. Howard was the same way. Once they stopped penetrating they were worthless.

The problem is they've never gotten the right mix of guys... Lots of solid starters, but never another star (which you MUST have) and never a good mix of guys around Dirk... Volume shooters like Van Exel, Terry, and Stackhouse don't work.

Everybody thought Caron could be that guy, but even he looks like it's about 3 years too late for Cuban.


And free-throw line in = perimeter hovering? Got it.

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Yes hovering, as in he doesn't have any sort of post presence.

 

[N41D]

He plays almost exclusively in the high post and on the blocks now... I guess it depends on how you define post presence... If it's as simple to you as "Oh well he doesn't play with his back to the basket" then fine... But I disagree.

 

[pmatic]

When you have the best mid-range game in the NBA, I don't think you need a low post game quite as much (though it would be nice to have). Dirk's mid-range sets up everything for him, from just catching-shooting to pump faking-driving to the hoop.

And if you think about it, Pau should be considered a center these days too. He plays his most meaningful minutes at that position (and I think overall a majority of his minutes from from that position).

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by PMatic


When you have the best mid-range game in the NBA, I don't think you need a low post game quite as much (though it would be nice to have). Dirk's mid-range sets up everything for him, from just catching-shooting to pump faking-driving to the hoop.

And if you think about it, Pau should be considered a center these days too. He plays his most meaningful minutes at that position (and I think overall a majority of his minutes from from that position).

I don't like that argument though P, just because if he did have a low post game, he probably would have taken his team further in the recent years.

The proof is in the pudding.

Like I said, what excuses does he have this year if they don't advance? He can put up all these shiny numbers but it better translate this year because his team is looking pretty nice on paper.

 

[N41D]

The team looks nice on paper? It's the EXACT SAME team they've had for like the last 5 years...

They just flat out aren't that good. Suggesting them not advancing is on him is ******ed. Not sure what more you want from him than what he's done the last 3 years in the playoffs.

 

[pmatic]

Originally Posted by ex carrabba fan

Originally Posted by PMatic


When you have the best mid-range game in the NBA, I don't think you need a low post game quite as much (though it would be nice to have). Dirk's mid-range sets up everything for him, from just catching-shooting to pump faking-driving to the hoop.

And if you think about it, Pau should be considered a center these days too. He plays his most meaningful minutes at that position (and I think overall a majority of his minutes from from that position).

I don't like that argument though P, just because if he did have a low post game, he probably would have taken his team further in the recent years.

The proof is in the pudding.

Like I said, what excuses does he have this year if they don't advance? He can put up all these shiny numbers but it better translate this year because his team is looking pretty nice on paper.

If were giving reasons why the Mavs haven't won a championship with Dirk, I would say being poorly constructed would be the first reason why. Sure Dirk has his flaws, but the team's flaws over the years were bigger contributors as to why they haven't won (no legitimate second star, lack of size, lack of athleticism, bad coaching, etc).
  

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

The team looks nice on paper? It's the EXACT SAME team they've had for like the last 5 years...

They just flat out aren't that good. Suggesting them not advancing is on him is ******ed. Not sure what more you want from him than what he's done the last 3 years in the playoffs.

Chandler's been on their team for the past 5 years?

Not to mention you get Haywood/Butler more time to build chemistry.

I don't know what I want, I'm just stating the facts

dude hasn't really done much in the playoffs, and his team has been more than decent. Winning that many regular season games for that many years tells me Dirk is a top talent but it doesn't translate when it comes to the post season.

Do you really expect not to advance this season?

 

[CP1708]

Devin was nasty for a minute though. 


Dirk mid range game is SOLID.  Thing of beauty.  But like I said with him and Pau, when it's crunch time, you HAVE to get buckets inside.  Since I had him in mind earlier, Lamarcus can hit those 15-17 foot jumpers over and over and over, he has a real nice shot, but when the game is on the line, you can't rely on Roy taking a tough fallaway 21 footer to get you thru.  It rarely ever works.  So, in that case, Lamarcus should go down, inside, and get that bucket for them.  Guess what?  He can't do it.  Know who can?  Tim Duncan.  His mid range is not bad at all.  Really not bad.  We all know the bank shots and all that, but from 13-14-15 feet, he's solid.  But when that shot isn't falling, or he has a helluva tough defender on him, he goes to the block and gets that bucket. 

Dirk can't do that over and over.  As JA said, the one year he did it was 06 vs the Spurs and they finally overcame the Spurs. 

And like I said before, will Bosh be able to go down there late in the postseason?  Sooner or later they will come to a came where they just don't have the shots falling, the D is tight, whatever, they will have to get a bucket down low, will Bosh be able to handle that?  I'm interested to see his game this year.  He COULD really just coast along all season outside knowing Wade and Bron will take care of the heavylifting and that could hurt him late.  ORRRR, the Heat force him to stay down low all season and make him be that post presence you have to have.

 

[N41D]

Look at the roster makeup and tell me anything is really all that different...

I don't expect anything from them and haven't for a couple of years... After the Lakers and MAYBE Oklahoma City, everybody is bunched really tightly... The Mavericks will win a lot of regular season games because they can play 10 guys to keep people fresh and one superstar can carry you through the regular season. When the postseason rolls around and the style of basketball changes, they're not built for it because they don't have anybody else that can create their own shot on a consistent basis besides Dirk.

EVERYBODY stands around and plays off what Dirk can create. Literally 90% of the time that's him taking a ball at the free throw line or on the blocks, facing up, and finding where the double-team is coming from... NBA coaches aren't dumb. You double Dirk with a point guard and leave Terry or Kidd open, neither of them can get in the paint so they shoot a three and you take your chances there... Sometimes they're hot and they're gonna burn you. More often, though, they're inconsistent and shoot themselves into a hole because they can't put it on the deck and get anywhere.

It's not hard to neutralize one superstar in the NBA and beat them. Dirk scoring 27 a game shooting 50+% from the field only gets you so far. At some point, someone else has to step up. The Mavs haven't had that ever, I don't think. Not even when they made the Finals. They were the best of a bunch of really average basketball teams in the West that year.

 

[bigmike23]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Pau is a better defender?

They both suck, so who cares. Better rebounder? Even if he is, it's not by any real margin.

gasol sucks on D?? he is a great help defender and can handle is own 1 on 1. Dirk cant do ANYTHING on D
  

 

[N41D]

Gasol is not a good man-on-man defensive player...

The Lakers team scheme like the Spurs do defensively. Pressure the perimeter and funnel guys into Gasol and Bynum. All they have to do is rotate correctly and not give up easy looks...

 

[steve cash]

 

[bigmike23]

so with the celtics doing all this prank and clowning around @@$% i guess we can count them out come playoff time.................