- Jul 20, 2009
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One is you enemy Bernie, one is your natural ally.
My biggest fear with dude sometimes is that he thinks taking over the Democratic party is somehow "winning" in the grand scheme of things.
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One is you enemy Bernie, one is your natural ally.
My biggest fear with dude sometimes is that he thinks taking over the Democratic party is somehow "winning" in the grand scheme of things.
- Jul 15, 2018
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Even beyond the Hubris of this.....
The last 30...... sorry...... 29 years of his career has been based on running to the left of mainstream Dems. This is what he does. To him there isn’t a difference, which is also why the party doesn’t mess with him.
on another note.....
- Jul 20, 2009
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I have a different theory. I just think Bernie is a self serving dude. He is part of the Dem establishment, the Dems protected his seat in the House, handpicked him for the Senate. He helped make the rules for the primary. He is part of their leadership in the Senate. Joe Biden and Harry Reid are very good friends of his. He is part of the establishment.
He keeps using the term "establishment" as a diss because it fans the flames of negative partisanship within the progressive base against the party.
-Oh yeah, Warren got a better handle on the situation than Bernie. His stance on the filibuster has been weird. From being against dropping it, to floating some asinine idea that the Dems can ignore the filibuster rules at will, to now being somewhat for it. If someone tells me that they don't need to drop the filibuster to pass something like M4A, but instead a 'political revolution" will deliver the win, I know they as either bull****ing me or asleep at the wheel.
- Feb 21, 2006
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I’d just like to point out that any form of governance that lacks effective mechanisms of democratic accountability is problematic, and this is not an exclusive feature of “populist” governments. In fact, it’s more commonly a feature of neoliberal, capital-friendly, anti-populist governments, including outright dictatorships. Some leftist-oriented governments fall under this as well but this is not a feature of left populism now exclusive to it.
I would also point out that cult of personality dynamics can happen with leaders of any political persuasion. The fervor around Obama in 2008 was no less fanatical than that around Bernie or Trump today. Same thing with how Reagan has been canonized by certain segments of society. So, again, let’s not prop up populism as some kind of unique boogeyman here. I’m not saying that was you all’s intent, but that’s how it came off to me at least.
I would also point out that cult of personality dynamics can happen with leaders of any political persuasion. The fervor around Obama in 2008 was no less fanatical than that around Bernie or Trump today. Same thing with how Reagan has been canonized by certain segments of society. So, again, let’s not prop up populism as some kind of unique boogeyman here. I’m not saying that was you all’s intent, but that’s how it came off to me at least.
- Feb 21, 2006
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Bernie’s position on the filibuster is probably the one area where I seriously have no idea what dude is thinking 
- Jun 28, 2004
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Donald Trump is the opposite of a populist.
He literally lost the popular vote, despite the fact that there is voter suppression in a number of States. His base of support was not poor whites it was small to medium sized business owners and retired engineers and doctors and lawyers.
A typical trump voter was the same as a typical Romney voter, a modestly affluent retirees with wealth tied up in their McMansion and their retirement accounts. They are, in. Marxist terminology, the petite bourgeoisie.
When Trump got into office, he was protected by a GOP House and Senate which had the support of the a minority of voters. He passed a tax law that cuts taxes for the very wealthy. He also appointed far right judges in order to frustrate popular will.
A more counter majoritarian politician and set of allies you will not find.
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- Jul 15, 2018
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To be fair just because it happened with Obama and Reagan doesn’t justify it. Also I am not saying that Bernie would run a populist government he’s just running on that campaign. Lastly, I bet if you asked Obama did he have any regrets about his presidency, right after Garland, and his failed attempt to remake the DNC. He would probably say his “Change you can believe in” campaign went against his moderate left of middle (but not very left) presidency. Then again would Obama have been elected in 2008 as a moderate black man..... probably not. Also “Change you can believe in” was much, much more modest than talking about taking out the establishment. Hell I don’t think Reagan being elected saying that in 1980, and Obama wouldn’t have won that way either.
If anything my real critique of campaign populism is it over promises and blinds people to candidates real flaws and plays on their resentment towards others.
- Jul 20, 2009
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Debating the mechanics of M4A is one things.
But Bernie plan to actually pass the thing ranges from delusional to asinine.
My "take him serious not literal" framework doesn't even help me make sense of it.
But Bernie plan to actually pass the thing ranges from delusional to asinine.
My "take him serious not literal" framework doesn't even help me make sense of it.
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superblytrife
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- Mar 20, 2002
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I hate this Bernie. It bugs me so much that his entire career is based on being a part of the “establishment” since he’s literally a career politician. Yet somehow he has convinced his followers that just b/c he’s an independent, he’s not like the other guys. Sure, his stances on some issues are vastly different, but he’s not some outsider like he would have us believe.
Also, we get it already brah. You can stop beating that drum now—you’re in the lead! This type of stuff adds nothing to the ultimate goal of securing the White House, IMO.
- Feb 21, 2006
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Bruh, you're basically just describing politics
. Candidates run on "inspiring" platitudes and "transformative" policies and/or ways of "doing politics."What Obama was selling people—a new day in Washington predicated on an unprecedented ability to come together under a common political vision—was no more modest than what Bernie is talking about. It was actually even less realistic and even more pie-in-the-sky. It was more of an over-promise than Medicare for All is. Which is actually counterintuitive since Obama ran as a moderate—he was selling himself, not his political program, as the transformative feature of his campaign. That's actually a lot more cult-of-personality-ish than Bernie's approach (though not Trump) and without any possibility of a programmatic payoff.
- Jul 20, 2009
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Bruh, you're basically just describing politics
What Obama was selling people—a new day in Washington predicated on an unprecedented ability to come together under a common political vision—was no more modest than what Bernie is talking about. It was actually even less realistic and even more pie-in-the-sky. It was more of an over-promise than Medicare for All is. Which is actually counterintuitive since Obama ran as a moderate—he was selling himself, not his political program, as the transformative feature of his campaign. That's actually a lot more cult-of-personality-ish than Bernie's approach (though not Trump) and without any possibility of a programmatic payoff.
You realize that same **** that tripped up Obama, gonna trip up Bernie. And Bernie got no serious plan how to handle it, beyond doing exactly what Obama did after 2014.
You can call Obama a moderate all you want. He was still well left of every Congress he ever had to deal with, House and Senate, when when the Dems had control. That didn't help at all.
In fact I would argue that Bernie is more pie in the sky. Because he expects a political revolution to convince Mitch McConnell to do the right thing in 2021 vs. Obama in 2009 thinking 1-2 GOP moderates in the GOP would actually try to govern. In addition to that Bernie expects the same Dem establishment he bashes so much, to show him Trump-GOP level loyalty to him.
Until leftist candidates can find a way to win consistently in swing districts and red states, and quick, Bern not passing anything close to his platform.
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- Jul 20, 2009
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I agree with
osh kosh bosh
. Pete and Lizzy are the only two serious candidates left that really grasp want kind of bind we are in.
osh kosh bosh
. Pete and Lizzy are the only two serious candidates left that really grasp want kind of bind we are in.
Nike Jordan
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- Jun 27, 2002
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It's poppin' at the Tom Steyer rally!
- Mar 30, 2007
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- Feb 21, 2006
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Bernie's program is predicated on a mass movement of people demanding a transformative political program from their elected officials and getting those unwilling to cooperate out the paint. Obama's program was predicated on his force of personality being transformative enough to bring policymakers together for a common political program. You can say that Bernie's plan is going to fail—I highly doubt things play out according to the best case scenario he and his supporters would like to see—but I don't think it's because he doesn't grasp what kind of bind we're in. In fact, he's the only one of the Democratic candidates who grasps the bind we're in. Warren can articulate all the thoughtful plans she wants, but without a massive bottom-up political shift in this country, those plans mean exactly nothing.
- Jul 20, 2009
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Your read on Obama is so weird given the fact that one of the main complaint about him is that he didn't try to schmooze with Congress people. He expected them to act in good faith and negotiate with him where there was common ground. Sure that was naive but this read you have on Obama seems out of step with that he actually did. Biden is the one that bit the hill and did the smiling and handshaking. To pass Obamacare, which he barely got through, and got damaged in the media, he held rallies to whip up support so and ask people to put enough pressure on the centrist and Blue Dogs so it could get through.
Hell Obama's victory and his inauguration speech was about needing a movement of people. One of my biggest criticism of Obama is that after 2008 he had an extensive grassroots infrastructure that he could have continued to build and become a major political force, and he just let it crumble.
So yeah, I'm not buying this argument that Obama just sold himself as some sort of magical negro.
Yeah Bernie's plan sound cool, and I agree we do need a civil awakening in America, but where is the movement gonna come from exactly? It certainly doesn't seem it will be born out of his presidency. He is gonna win with one of the lowest support since Mondale. And if he wins it won't be with the same blowout Obama had. So his plan hinges on him motivating mass amounts of people, where are they exactly? Not to mention like always, a ton of people probably think Bernie is a Benevolent Santa, just like they did with Obama and will get disillusioned when he can't deliver.
Bernie's plan to actually try pass stuff like M4A is not through a mass movement of people. It is to jam in through reconciliation before the CBO can score it, probably without public trials, while completely breaking the Senate rules, and expecting centrist to back the play. Which is completely asinine.
At least Warren and even Pete who realized that it we don't change the rules of the game, nothing really gets done, and nothing sticks
Yeah, there is no way given the facts at hand I'm I buying Bernie got a better grasp on things than Warren. Outside of legislative and electoral politics, Warren clearly got a better grasp of economics too. So downplay all her plans all you want, talking about visions all you want, at least I know she is serious and competent.
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aepps20
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- Feb 8, 2004
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When we hit da Libs with da conservative haymaker they were dazed and confused.
- Jan 19, 2017
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Guess we're going back to the nonsense Bernie bashing since Liz had a good night @ the debates
"Bernie's an insider" "Sure, his policies are different" "He's an independent" "But, he's still apart of the establishment"
"Bernie's an insider" "Sure, his policies are different" "He's an independent" "But, he's still apart of the establishment"
- Mar 30, 2007
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- Jul 20, 2009
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No one is bashing Bernie. People are making legit criticisms of him.Guess we're going back to the nonsense Bernie bashing since Liz had a good night @ the debates
"Bernie's an insider" "Sure, his policies are different" "He's an independent" "But, he's still apart of the establishment"
Y'all Bernie supporters in here need to stop being so reactionary when people dear say anything that is short of praise regarding ole boy.
I mean you are combing the supposed comments two different people made to act like we are contradicting ourselves.
- Jan 19, 2017
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Also, I'm tired of narrative that because Liz talks well on certain issues that she somehow has a better chance of getting things done. At this point, we know that she's not fully behind M4A and it's a big reason why she started to bomb last fall. She's trying to straddle this line of being progressive but not too progressive and being moderate but too moderate.
Lastly, I don't expect a president to be super well versed in all subjects, the idea or the "vision" is equally as important as the machinations that make the idea work. Even if he can't get M4A through in it's most pure form, I bet he can't get most of the way there. It's better to bat for a home run and get a bunt to 3rd than it is to bat for a bunt and get a foul.
Lastly, I don't expect a president to be super well versed in all subjects, the idea or the "vision" is equally as important as the machinations that make the idea work. Even if he can't get M4A through in it's most pure form, I bet he can't get most of the way there. It's better to bat for a home run and get a bunt to 3rd than it is to bat for a bunt and get a foul.
superblytrife
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- Mar 20, 2002
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Guess we're going back to the nonsense Bernie bashing since Liz had a good night @ the debates
"Bernie's an insider" "Sure, his policies are different" "He's an independent" "But, he's still apart of the establishment"
Lawd you're a sensitive one.
I see an overarching theme here.....
- Jan 19, 2017
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I feel like you should follow your own advice when one of us doesn't agree with your critiques. Btw those quotes were from this comment, I didn't splice together a straw man.
Read that first paragraph and tell me it's not contradictory
- Jul 20, 2009
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Liz started to dip in polls after she proposed a plan to seriously pay for M4A. Which was stupid because M4A as proposed by Bernie, it unworkable, especially if you want to not raise income taxes on the middle class. Her embrace of M4A help tank her, not the opposite.
Any Dem will be in a incredibly tough spot. Liz has a better chance of passing stuff because she is wants to drop the filibuster, Bernie doesn't. So really it has nothing to do with how they talk, or even how well they grasp the policy issue. There is a major roadblock for both of them even with Democratic majorities in the House and Senate. Warren knows what needs to be done in that situation, Sanders on the other hand is talking political gibberish with using reconciliation and ignoring Senate rules brazenly.
The healthcare plan that will pass if Dems have the majority will look more like Biden's, no matter who is president. This whole start way left and you will get more from the deal doesn't really work in practice. What the last vote in will tolerate, that is what you get. So we need to get that marginal vote to be as progressive as possible. If M4A advocates what to get there, they should start answering the serious question surrounding it, build public support, and advocate for plans that can help us back into single payer. Oh yeah, start winning in red districts and States regularly.
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