***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

I feel like you should follow your own advice when one of us doesn't agree with your critiques. Btw those quotes were from this comment, I didn't splice together a straw man.



Read that first paragraph and tell me it's not contradictory

It is not contradictory.

 

[youngogjosh]

Liz started to dip in polls after she proposed a plan to seriously pay for M4A. Her embrace of M4A tanked her, not the opposite.

Liz has a better chance of passing stuff because she is wants to drop the filibuster, Bernie doesn't. So really it has nothing to do with how they talk, or even how well they grasp the policy issue.

The healthcare plan that will pass if Dems have the majority will look more like Biden's, no matter who is president. This whole start way left and you will get more from the deal doesn't really work in practice. What the last vote in will tolerate, that is what you get. If M4A advocates what to get there, they should start answering the serious question surrounding it, build public support, and advocate for plans that can help us back into single payer.

That first point makes no sense. If Bernie has explicitly told people in plain terms that their taxes will go up as a result of M4A (in it's purest state) being passed then surely he shouldn't be front runner as result of explaining how the plan would impact people financially. Liz tanked because she started veering to the right of Bernie.

Liz's plan to eliminate the filibuster while agreeable is still a plan that's subject to feelings and politics of the house and senate. It matters little if she can't get it through.

For your last point, Trump is literally building an early medieval era obstacle to keep migrants out. If that's not starting extreme and getting that extreme idk what is.....

 

[youngogjosh]

It is not contradictory.

I'm sorry you lack basic reading comprehension

 

[RustyShackleford]

That first point makes no sense. If Bernie has explicitly told people in plain terms that their taxes will go up as a result of M4A (in it's purest state) being passed then surely he shouldn't be front runner as result of explaining how the plan would impact people financially. Liz tanked because she started veering to the right of Bernie.

Liz's plan to eliminate the filibuster while agreeable is still a plan that's subject to feelings and politics of the house and senate. It matters little if she can't get it through.

For your last point, Trump is literally building an early medieval era obstacle to keep migrants out. If that's not starting extreme and getting that extreme idk what is.....

-Warren's move right on M4A was proposing a phase in, which Bernie's plan has too btw. Warren's plan to fund M4A, while unworkable, was still in theory more progressive than Bernie plan. But Sanders has no serious plan to fund it. He listed taxes that might help fund it but they come short. The gap has to be filled by middle class tax increase and Sanders will not put a number on the increase, not would put out a serious analysis people can sink their teeth into. Bernie not getting literal about his plan, that's why he can run on it unharmed. Warren got literal, and it exposed the fact M4A is unworkable right now.

-Sure, enough Dems have to agree with it. But I am certain more Senators are in favor of dropping the filibuster than they are of Bernie's asinine plan to ignore the parliamentarian when we feel like it. I doubt he would be able to a one vote for that in the Senate.

-Trump is not building a serious border wall. He got funding to add barriers that are nowhere near what he promised.

It is literally impossible to build the wall Trump proposed, I believe the administration admitted large parts of the border still not have a barrier.

If Bernie's healthcare plan is as success as Trump's border wall plan, it will serve as symbol to his followers, but in practice he well short of his target. But just like it, whatever we get will probably be funded through deficit spending.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I'm sorry you lack basic reading comprehension

I would jab back, but I will let you have this one my dude.

Still, I don't see the contradiction. He is talking about Benrie being a career politician, part of the establishment, that is what makes him similar to others. Then dude said his policy positions on some issue might be different, but that doesn't change the fact he is establishment, a career politician, an insider. So I think my reading comprehension is just fine, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. superblytrife was my summary of your argument on the mark, or is dude right that my reading comprehension needs improvement?

Centrist in the same time period Bernie has been in office, in the Democratic Party, have had some wild policy position that are out of step with the majority of the party, and you Bernie dudes still would consider them establishment.

Also some issues Bernie has been out of step on with the majority of the party, he has been to the right of the party.

 

[junglejim]

That first point makes no sense. If Bernie has explicitly told people in plain terms that their taxes will go up as a result of M4A (in it's purest state) being passed then surely he shouldn't be front runner as result of explaining how the plan would impact people financially

Thats the thing though. Every time Bernie is asked how he is going to pay for M4A he completely dodges the question and says that he will make the rich pay their fair share which is completely disingenuous because the taxes he is proposing will only pay for about $2T of the estimated $25T plan. His plans to pay for it is to raise the highest marginal rates to 52%, raise the payroll tax by 7.5% for employers, establish a wealth tax, AND have people pay a 4% premium on income over 29k. Despite all this his plan would still add well over $1.5T in deficit over a 10 year window and likely double the national deficit so it’s going to need 60 votes in the senate to pass which will never, ever happen.

Not to mention Sanders he lied multiple times during these debates saying there will be no premiums for M4A when his couple page summary to pay for it clearly shows premiums of 4% which is what Pete started attacking last debate.

Then You factor in the fact that people are likely going to have to give up their insurance plans for M4A and you are left with a pie in the sky proposal that is certainly never going to pass and even if it does, it will likely be ruled unconstitutional in the courts if it forces people to be on it like Obamacare.

couple that with the fact that Bernie is maybe the least efficient congressman in the senate in terms of getting bills passed and you are left with a plan that is virtually certain to be unworkable and will not pass.

Realistically we will probably end up with some optional M4A proposal that Pete is proposing with premium payments and dumbed down coverages, but y’all Bernie fans don’t want to hear that.

Here is his full proposal if you want to read it. Some of the stuff in here is outdated though because they just taxed off shore profits in 2017 to help pay for the tax cuts

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file

Even with this he is still going to be about $10T shy of having a workable budget that they could potentially pass with 50 votes in the senate

 

[Wargames]

Donald Trump is the opposite of a populist.

He literally lost the popular vote, despite the fact that there is voter suppression in a number of States. His base of support was not poor whites it was small to medium sized business owners and retired engineers and doctors and lawyers.

A typical trump voter was the same as a typical Romney voter, a modestly affluent retirees with wealth tied up in their McMansion and their retirement accounts. They are, in. Marxist terminology, the petite bourgeoisie.

When Trump got into office, he was protected by a GOP House and Senate which had the support of the a minority of voters. He passed a tax law that cuts taxes for the very wealthy. He also appointed far right judges in order to frustrate popular will.

A more counter majoritarian politician and set of allies you will not find.

You are right, and I clarified later that Trump ran on populism (though partisan) and republicans cheat like they breathe air. “Clean the swamp” was populist in its approach. At the time he was saying the establishment was corrupt and as an outsider he would fix things. His whole campaign was drenched in over promises too that even then everyone was like this is BS. The Wall, the Muslim ban (that the SC is trash for allowing even a watered down version of), beating China, bringing back jobs in dead sectors. Every candidate makes promises, but a populist candidate promises stuff that is way out of their control

It’s another conversation but I don’t think the republicans have the number of voters needed to win a national election without some sort of suppression. Age/demographic is not on their side and they are being stubborn about adapting to that and may never do it cause they keep getting away with cheating.

 

[gry60]

He's going to be the acting DNI, and he has no intelligence experience. He's also a Trump yes-man.

The heart of a nation's geopolitical influence is its intelligence services, not it's military.

America, what is you doing baby?

 

[rolaholic]

Man really think's he's a king

 

[AEA18]

Muddying the waters early.

 

[superblytrife]

RustyShackleford Spot on.

I could’ve worded it better I’m sure, but yeah, you got the gist of it. I guess I don’t get how that’s hard to see, unless one just doesn’t want to see it.

 

[rolaholic]

His net favorability among the group most likely to support him, moderate dems, fell by 30 points

 

[storm2006]

His net favorability among the group most likely to support him, moderate dems, fell by 30 points

At least he was +2 with conservatives

 

[deleted]

 

[dacomeup]

At least he was +2 with conservatives

Only makes sense for a guy who couldn’t defend his racist and sexist actions to rise in popularity with Republicans.

Man really think's he's a king

How can Bolton’s information be lies and classified information, simultaneously?

 

[storm2006]

Congratulations on the new album aepps20 !!! I look forward to features from whywesteppin , Belgium , dwalk31 , ninjahood and the rest of the Coal Gang. You all have finally arrived comrade

 

[hipstermike]

How are government subsidies not socialism?

 

[plansb]

How are government subsidies not socialism?

Because the tariffs are paying the subsidies.

 

[gry60]

Da LibeRAL MedIA tho

 

[whywesteppin]

Congratulations on the new album aepps20 !!! I look forward to features from whywesteppin , Belgium , dwalk31 , ninjahood and the rest of the Coal Gang. You all have finally arrived comrade

so proud of this.

we're already working on the follow-up album: "We're all black in the the coal mines"

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I agree with osh kosh bosh . Pete and Lizzy are the only two serious candidates left that really grasp want kind of bind we are in.

I suspect Bernie understands this, in fact i GOTTA believe Bernie knows this, but his political branding and style prevents him from saying it.

 

[gry60]

Congratulations on the new album aepps20 !!! I look forward to features from whywesteppin , Belgium , dwalk31 , ninjahood and the rest of the Coal Gang. You all have finally arrived comrade

Conservative values like cheating on your s.o, running brothels, hating gays, robbing folks, serving drugs, hating the government, and destroying minority communities?

I think we already got that covered

 

[Wargames]

I suspect Bernie understands this, in fact i GOTTA believe Bernie knows this, but his political branding and style prevents him from saying it.

How so. I don’t get why he would not support getting rid of the filibuster based on his “Revolution” branding

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Bernie's supporters read way too deeply into his political branding.


Bernie's haters read way too deeply into his political branding.


Bernie is a normal politician with a unique political brand and style.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

How so. I don’t get why he would not support getting rid of the filibuster based on his “Revolution” branding

Bernie's rhetorical style is based using every issue as a framing device to identify how the corporate elite are screwing working people

and putting it in terms non political heads can understand and viscerally feel.



talking about parliamentary procedure, and senate rules aint fit within that...