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Hornets have been healthy all season long. If the Lakers had half the health Hornets had then they'd be 3-4 games better off atleast. Kobe has kept thisteam afloat while Andrew and Pau and Trevor have been out.
**OFFICIAL NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER (MVP) THREAD**
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by darthska,
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I'm not really a Hornets/CP3 fan, but dude deserves it over KB24. He's done what Kobe has done and has less experience in the L compared to Kobe. Ilike Kobe but he hasn't wowed me this year as much as CP3 has done. Maybe next year Kobe.
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Not really.
He's basically having the same season he had last season.
Mind you, Kobe is having a solid season, but, that's the illusion that a lot of people are seeing. They think Kobe is playing a big part in why the Lakersare so succesful, ie, stepping up his game/keeping his team afloat.
The truth is, when you look at the stats, it's nearly identical from last season.
Do stats tell everything?
Of course not, as, the Lakers wouldn't be anywhere without Kobe.
But, just don't get duped into the line of thinking as, the reason why the Lakers are where they are is because Kobe is stepping up his game in the midstof this Lakers run.
He's being Kobe. It's his teammates who's been keeping this team afloat dealing with all these injuries.
You compare that to CP3, and it's no coincidence looking at his numbers, and then looking at where his team is in the standings. It's also nocoincidence that Tyson Chandler is averaging the most points in his career, the same season, this season, while CP3 is putting up MVP type numbers. It'salso no coincidence that Peja is shooting his best from behind the arc the same season, this season, CP3 is tearing it up. Finally, it's no coincidencethat David West is an All-Star, this season.
It's all because of CP3.
Kobe makes the game easier for his teammates.
CP3 makes his teammates beter.
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^I don't really want to argue between Kobe and CP3 because to be honest, either are just as worthy.
However you didn't answer my statement. I was simply saying if the Lakers had half the health the Hornets have had all season then they'd be 3-4better. But that's if's and but's. Clearly it's the hear and now. Kobe has been playing with a torn pinky and lost teammates along the way.Sure, Pau came along and made us a much better team, however he's been out for 9 games. Had he played those we'd win those games last week, no doubt!
Chris Paul is having an MVP season and I couldn't complain if he did win it. However no one can agrue against the fact they've been lucky this seasonwith the health of this roster. Perhaps making up from last seasons injuries that decimated the hornets.
However you didn't answer my statement. I was simply saying if the Lakers had half the health the Hornets have had all season then they'd be 3-4better. But that's if's and but's. Clearly it's the hear and now. Kobe has been playing with a torn pinky and lost teammates along the way.Sure, Pau came along and made us a much better team, however he's been out for 9 games. Had he played those we'd win those games last week, no doubt!
Chris Paul is having an MVP season and I couldn't complain if he did win it. However no one can agrue against the fact they've been lucky this seasonwith the health of this roster. Perhaps making up from last seasons injuries that decimated the hornets.
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I don't get the notion that Kobe isn't making his teammates better but everyone else is. I mean it just makes no sense. Let's look in the case ofCP3 and Kobe. Both have the same teammates for the most part....both of their teams jumped to the top of the West. CP3 gets credit for making his team betterbut Kobe...oh his teammates just stepped up not him?
Then let's notforget that the Hornets probably make the playoffs next year without injuries. The Lakers meanwhile have had an injury to pretty much every important piece totheir puzzle yet have been in the top 4 pretty much all year. Also one of these players is playing with a mangled finger on his shooting hand. Some people haveforgotten because his play is just as high as if he was at 100%. That will also factor in. So while I can see why CP3 would get it...I have a hard timebelieving that Kobe isn't the MVP. It has nothing to do with my fanhood either. Just the way I see it....if he doesn't get it, it's because people(writers) are still harboring feelings from an incident almost 5 years ago.
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Most of what Ric Bucher says is garbage (although he was right about Drew being out way longer than anticipated), but here's his take on the MVP race:
1
Abbreviation Nation: MVP Credentials Defined
By Ric Bucher
ESPN The Magazine
(Archive)
Ask people who have a vote who their choice for the NBA's 2008 Most Valuable Player is. Their eyes dart, they pull back as if circling their personalwagons and their expressions look as if someone just asked, "You paid what for that?"
The first answer will be, "Uhhh, I haven't decided yet." Or maybe the slightly more urbane: "I won't know until the end of theseason."
Maneuver around this grand cop-out by asking who it would be right now. Expect to hear that it's between two or three names. Be persistent. "Top ofthe list?" you ask. "If you had to pick right now?" (The "right now" qualifier has an extraordinarily calming effect.)
Whatever name is given, simply repeat it, slowly, as if it had never occurred to you that this choice was even a serious candidate.
Because the best part comes next: the explanation why this player deserves to be MVP.
All of this free entertainment is brought to you by the NBA, which has never bothered to define precisely what MVP means. This seeming lack of clarity isactually a shrewd move by the NBA because it ensures that arguments on the airwaves, in front of cameras and around kegs and copiers can and will be made.It's arguably just another way of inculcating the league even deeper into our social fabric.
I raised this same point once before, several seasons ago. I raise it again now because this year's race is so varied that the result will probably saymore about the voters and their particular prejudices than the merit of the actual winner himself.
Besides, at least a dozen players have been mentioned at one time or another this season as MVP candidates, but there are only five spots on an officialballot. As a second free gift, here's my breakdown of the various types of MVPs we have -- so that if and when one of them wins, you'll already knowwhy.
MEP (Most Excellent Player): Kobe Bryant, Lakers. No one in theleague has disputed that Kobe is the best player for at least the past four years, but that hasn't been enough for him to finish higher than third inoverall voting. Ever. This reality suggests that how a player is perceived is more important than how he plays.
MEPFESFNHWB (Most Excellent Player Finally Earning Sympathy For Never Having Won Before): Bryant, Lakers. Also known in some quarters asthe Karl Malone MVP Category. Bryant's sympathy account has ballooned even morethis year because of two reasons: one, he has played (and played unbelievably well) the last several months with a torn tendon in the little finger of hisshooting hand, and two, after complaining that the team should've traded some of their young talent for Jason Kidd last spring, Bryant gladly made room for those same young players to blossom whenthey stepped up their games.
MVPOATWTBRITWC (Most Valuable Player On A Team With The Best Record In The Western Conference): Chris Paul, Hornets. That's the explanation I've heard most often from those who aretempted to put Paul at the top of their ballots -- as in, Kobe gets it unless the Hornets finish with the best record. Then, the thinking goes, Paul simplyshouldn't be denied. When someone suggested I make that my criteria, I even nodded in agreement. Hey, why not? It's a safe, easily defensibleposition.
Paul has done everything you could ask an MVP to do. But then I considered how the best-record logic enabled Amare Stoudemire to win rookie of the year over Yao Ming. What a travesty that was, considering their respective importance to their teamsthat year. Then I checked how many injuries and other personnel problems the Hornets have had to deal with this season: almost none. Then I looked at the kindof years Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler and DavidWest are having: great, nearly injury-free years.
Without a doubt Paul deserves a certain amount of credit for all that, but the fact remains the Hornets' starting lineup has been nearly intact theentire season -- unlike just about every other MVP candidate's team in the West. I'm not saying Paul shouldn't be this year's MVP; I'msaying the Hornets' record vs. the Lakers, or anybody else, shouldn't be the single deciding factor.
MNGPASLYFHFP (Most Naturally Gifted Player Amazingly Still Light Years From His Full Potential): LeBron James, Cavaliers. For years, James has been thrown into this conversation primarilybecause of his historically impressive stats. That's fine for those who don't actually watch games and know how those stats were accumulated.
While I was previously slow to put him on my ballot, he clearly belongs in the thick of the conversation now -- but not because he's putting up numbersthat only a handful of players have. Look, if you have a power forward's body, a point guard's handle and more offensive freedom than anyone else inthe league, you're going to have eye-popping numbers. Lebron's stats are excellent, but he's in the MVP race because he's using his talent towin games, whether he's making stops on last possessions or attacking the rim until someone closes down his air space. No moreI-passed-it-because-Donyell-was-open alibis. That's fine for the first 47 minutes. MVPs who can get to within eight feet of the basket anytime they chooseand have LeBron's strength and body control put the responsibility on themselves, period. And he has done so quite often this year.
MHPAOTTWTBR (Most High-Profile Acquisition On The Team With The Best Record): Kevin Garnett, Celtics. Garnett is both blessed and cursed by the same qualifications thatPaul is. Sure, Garnett has brought a hard-hat intensity, blue-collar work ethic and regular-guy unselfishness that no doubt helped restore this proudfranchise's luster, but he wasn't the only new chair at the table.
Ray Allen was newly acquired, too, and he's no slouch when it comes to talentor professionalism. Tom Thibodeau, the team's defensive assistant coach, has to get some credit for the Celtics leading the league in his department. (Anex-coach described him as the best assistant Doc Rivers has ever had.) But if there's an overlooked element in the Celtics' rise, it's Paul Pierce 2.0, a never-before-seen, highly efficient version.
MVPOTTWTBR (Most Valuable Player On The Team With The Best Record): Pierce, Celtics. Pierce's play -- not Garnett's-- willdetermine if Boston can follow up the best regular-season record by winning a championship. As demonstrated in the two games with Phoenix -- Pierce stunk asthe Celtics lost the first game and starred as they romped in the second -- if he makes an effort on D and correctly exploits his ability to attract adouble-team on O, Pierce is Boston's biggest difference maker.
MSIPOATWTMVP (Most Statistically Impressive Player On A Team With Two Most Valuable Players): Amare Stoudemire, Suns. Since microfracturesurgery robbed him of the ability to simply crush dunks on anyone in his path, Stoudemire has expanded his game impressively. His statistical boost since Shaqarrived in Phoenix speaks to two things: the Big Diesel (a former MVP) is making him better, and Steve Nash (another former MVP) is finding a way to utilize a starkly different front line.But then that's what real MVPs do.
MVPVNJCI (Most Valuable Player Voters Now Just Completely Ignore): TimDuncan, Spurs. The search to find someone else to credit for the Spurs' monotonous success is almost comical. Both Tony Parker and ManuGinobili have been thrown into the MVP conversation, while Duncan continues to anchor the defense and consistently deliver on offense despite being thefocus of every team's defensive game plan.
MIPITWMTAGOV (Most Indispensable Player If There Were More Tattooed and Gun-Owning Voters): Stephen Jackson, Warriors. Baron Davis was my edgy pick for MVP before the season started and is having one of the bestyears of his career, but so is Jackson. While the Warriors wouldn't have a chance at the postseason without either one of them, a case can be made thatJackson is the more vital cog in the way the Warriors play because of his ability to defend any kind of forward -- small or power -- you put in front of himand his pick-and-roll passing. His role in the Palace brawl will never be forgotten as long as he still looks like a thug, but he deserves considerationstrictly on basketball terms.
So who are the five names on my ballot? As of right now? Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett. In that order.
In pencil.
Ric Bucher covers the NBA for ESPN The Magazine
1
Abbreviation Nation: MVP Credentials Defined
By Ric Bucher
ESPN The Magazine
(Archive)
Ask people who have a vote who their choice for the NBA's 2008 Most Valuable Player is. Their eyes dart, they pull back as if circling their personalwagons and their expressions look as if someone just asked, "You paid what for that?"
The first answer will be, "Uhhh, I haven't decided yet." Or maybe the slightly more urbane: "I won't know until the end of theseason."
Maneuver around this grand cop-out by asking who it would be right now. Expect to hear that it's between two or three names. Be persistent. "Top ofthe list?" you ask. "If you had to pick right now?" (The "right now" qualifier has an extraordinarily calming effect.)
Whatever name is given, simply repeat it, slowly, as if it had never occurred to you that this choice was even a serious candidate.
Because the best part comes next: the explanation why this player deserves to be MVP.
All of this free entertainment is brought to you by the NBA, which has never bothered to define precisely what MVP means. This seeming lack of clarity isactually a shrewd move by the NBA because it ensures that arguments on the airwaves, in front of cameras and around kegs and copiers can and will be made.It's arguably just another way of inculcating the league even deeper into our social fabric.
I raised this same point once before, several seasons ago. I raise it again now because this year's race is so varied that the result will probably saymore about the voters and their particular prejudices than the merit of the actual winner himself.
Besides, at least a dozen players have been mentioned at one time or another this season as MVP candidates, but there are only five spots on an officialballot. As a second free gift, here's my breakdown of the various types of MVPs we have -- so that if and when one of them wins, you'll already knowwhy.
MEP (Most Excellent Player): Kobe Bryant, Lakers. No one in theleague has disputed that Kobe is the best player for at least the past four years, but that hasn't been enough for him to finish higher than third inoverall voting. Ever. This reality suggests that how a player is perceived is more important than how he plays.
MEPFESFNHWB (Most Excellent Player Finally Earning Sympathy For Never Having Won Before): Bryant, Lakers. Also known in some quarters asthe Karl Malone MVP Category. Bryant's sympathy account has ballooned even morethis year because of two reasons: one, he has played (and played unbelievably well) the last several months with a torn tendon in the little finger of hisshooting hand, and two, after complaining that the team should've traded some of their young talent for Jason Kidd last spring, Bryant gladly made room for those same young players to blossom whenthey stepped up their games.
MVPOATWTBRITWC (Most Valuable Player On A Team With The Best Record In The Western Conference): Chris Paul, Hornets. That's the explanation I've heard most often from those who aretempted to put Paul at the top of their ballots -- as in, Kobe gets it unless the Hornets finish with the best record. Then, the thinking goes, Paul simplyshouldn't be denied. When someone suggested I make that my criteria, I even nodded in agreement. Hey, why not? It's a safe, easily defensibleposition.
Paul has done everything you could ask an MVP to do. But then I considered how the best-record logic enabled Amare Stoudemire to win rookie of the year over Yao Ming. What a travesty that was, considering their respective importance to their teamsthat year. Then I checked how many injuries and other personnel problems the Hornets have had to deal with this season: almost none. Then I looked at the kindof years Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler and DavidWest are having: great, nearly injury-free years.
Without a doubt Paul deserves a certain amount of credit for all that, but the fact remains the Hornets' starting lineup has been nearly intact theentire season -- unlike just about every other MVP candidate's team in the West. I'm not saying Paul shouldn't be this year's MVP; I'msaying the Hornets' record vs. the Lakers, or anybody else, shouldn't be the single deciding factor.
MNGPASLYFHFP (Most Naturally Gifted Player Amazingly Still Light Years From His Full Potential): LeBron James, Cavaliers. For years, James has been thrown into this conversation primarilybecause of his historically impressive stats. That's fine for those who don't actually watch games and know how those stats were accumulated.
While I was previously slow to put him on my ballot, he clearly belongs in the thick of the conversation now -- but not because he's putting up numbersthat only a handful of players have. Look, if you have a power forward's body, a point guard's handle and more offensive freedom than anyone else inthe league, you're going to have eye-popping numbers. Lebron's stats are excellent, but he's in the MVP race because he's using his talent towin games, whether he's making stops on last possessions or attacking the rim until someone closes down his air space. No moreI-passed-it-because-Donyell-was-open alibis. That's fine for the first 47 minutes. MVPs who can get to within eight feet of the basket anytime they chooseand have LeBron's strength and body control put the responsibility on themselves, period. And he has done so quite often this year.
MHPAOTTWTBR (Most High-Profile Acquisition On The Team With The Best Record): Kevin Garnett, Celtics. Garnett is both blessed and cursed by the same qualifications thatPaul is. Sure, Garnett has brought a hard-hat intensity, blue-collar work ethic and regular-guy unselfishness that no doubt helped restore this proudfranchise's luster, but he wasn't the only new chair at the table.
Ray Allen was newly acquired, too, and he's no slouch when it comes to talentor professionalism. Tom Thibodeau, the team's defensive assistant coach, has to get some credit for the Celtics leading the league in his department. (Anex-coach described him as the best assistant Doc Rivers has ever had.) But if there's an overlooked element in the Celtics' rise, it's Paul Pierce 2.0, a never-before-seen, highly efficient version.
MVPOTTWTBR (Most Valuable Player On The Team With The Best Record): Pierce, Celtics. Pierce's play -- not Garnett's-- willdetermine if Boston can follow up the best regular-season record by winning a championship. As demonstrated in the two games with Phoenix -- Pierce stunk asthe Celtics lost the first game and starred as they romped in the second -- if he makes an effort on D and correctly exploits his ability to attract adouble-team on O, Pierce is Boston's biggest difference maker.
MSIPOATWTMVP (Most Statistically Impressive Player On A Team With Two Most Valuable Players): Amare Stoudemire, Suns. Since microfracturesurgery robbed him of the ability to simply crush dunks on anyone in his path, Stoudemire has expanded his game impressively. His statistical boost since Shaqarrived in Phoenix speaks to two things: the Big Diesel (a former MVP) is making him better, and Steve Nash (another former MVP) is finding a way to utilize a starkly different front line.But then that's what real MVPs do.
MVPVNJCI (Most Valuable Player Voters Now Just Completely Ignore): TimDuncan, Spurs. The search to find someone else to credit for the Spurs' monotonous success is almost comical. Both Tony Parker and ManuGinobili have been thrown into the MVP conversation, while Duncan continues to anchor the defense and consistently deliver on offense despite being thefocus of every team's defensive game plan.
MIPITWMTAGOV (Most Indispensable Player If There Were More Tattooed and Gun-Owning Voters): Stephen Jackson, Warriors. Baron Davis was my edgy pick for MVP before the season started and is having one of the bestyears of his career, but so is Jackson. While the Warriors wouldn't have a chance at the postseason without either one of them, a case can be made thatJackson is the more vital cog in the way the Warriors play because of his ability to defend any kind of forward -- small or power -- you put in front of himand his pick-and-roll passing. His role in the Palace brawl will never be forgotten as long as he still looks like a thug, but he deserves considerationstrictly on basketball terms.
So who are the five names on my ballot? As of right now? Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett. In that order.
In pencil.
Ric Bucher covers the NBA for ESPN The Magazine
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I don't get the notion that Kobe isn't making his teammates better but everyone else is. I mean it just makes no sense. Let's look in the case of CP3 and Kobe. Both have the same teammates for the most part....both of their teams jumped to the top of the West. CP3 gets credit for making his team better but Kobe...oh his teammates just stepped up not him?Then let's not forget that the Hornets probably make the playoffs next year without injuries. The Lakers meanwhile have had an injury to pretty much every important piece to their puzzle yet have been in the top 4 pretty much all year. Also one of these players is playing with a mangled finger on his shooting hand. Some people have forgotten because his play is just as high as if he was at 100%. That will also factor in. So while I can see why CP3 would get it...I have a hard time believing that Kobe isn't the MVP. It has nothing to do with my fanhood either. Just the way I see it....if he doesn't get it, it's because people (writers) are still harboring feelings from an incident almost 5 years ago.
All great players make their teammates better in a sense, Kobe included.
The thing with CHRIS PAUL though is, you'd really have to watch the Hornets play in order to 'get it.'
Wanna know the real reason why Tyson Chandler is averaging the most points in his career this year?
It's not because he all of a sudden developed an outside shot. Or some go to post move. It's because off the pick and roll, this dude CP3 breaks down the defense and alley oops it to him. CP3 sets up all these dudes. That game winner against Cleveland the other week? CP3 collapsing the defense and kicking it back to a wide open David West. Peja's been in this league how many years now? This Hornets team is not better than the Kings team he was on with that bench mob, CWebb, Divac, yet, THIS year dude is going to end up shooting the best 3pt % in his career. Why? Because CP3 breaks down defenses which results in wide open looks for Peja.
Again, I'm a big Kobe fan. I think he's the best in the game. He deserved the MVP a couple of seasons in the past couple of years, but when looking at it THIS year, I can't give him the nod over CP3.
The emergence of Bynum, Farmar, and Sasha.
How has Kobe made these dudes better?
What part did Kobe play?
Like I said with Chandler, if you watched the Hornets play, you'd know WHY he's averaging a career high this year. It's contingent on CP3 setting dude up.
I'm not saying that CP3 all of a sudden made these dudes around him better out of thin air. David West, Peja, and Tyson all have game, whether CP3 is there or not.
But you take a step back and really look at the make up of both teams, the stats both Kobe and CP3 are putting up, and the stats their teammates are putting up, and you will see that CP3 is having the bigger impact on his team than Kobe.
AGAIN, Kobe is that dude, but in the bigger picture, KOBE IS KOBE, while CP3 has STEPPED UP his game.
The numbers don't lie.
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So franchise what you're saying is that assists= making teammates better and that because that Kobe isn't averaging a lot of assists, his teammates arejust sepping up their game?
Well take a look at this:
[table][tr][td]Year[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]DEF[/td] [td]RPG[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]SPG[/td] [td]BPG[/td] [td]TO[/td] [td]PF[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][/table]
David West's stats
06-07 NOK 52 52 36.5 0.476 0.320 0.824 2.4 5.7 8.2 2.2 0.8 0.7 1.88 2.80 18.3
07-08 NOH 66 66 37.7 0.477 0.273 0.840 2.4 6.6 9.0 2.3 0.8 1.3 2.21 2.80 20.4
Tyson Chandler's stats
06-07 NOK 73 73 34.6 0.624 0.000 0.527 4.4 8.0 12.4 0.9 0.5 1.8 1.73 3.30 9.5
07-08 NOH 69 69 35.4 0.606 0.000 0.599 4.2 7.9 12.1 1.0 0.6 1.1 1.77 3.10 11.7
Peja's stats
06-07 NOK 13 13 32.7 0.423 0.405 0.816 0.8 3.3 4.2 0.8 0.6 0.3 1.46 2.20 17.8
07-08 NOH 67 67 34.9 0.444 0.459 0.925 0.8 3.4 4.3 1.3 0.8 0.1 0.84 1.60 16.3
Since you keep saying stats don't lie well David West and Tyson Chandler are avg. 2 more pts per game than they did last year and similar numbers allaround pretty much. The major difference as you can see in what I've highlighted is their games played, outside of Chandler, West and Peja especiallyplayed way less games than they have up to this point this year. And Peja's points are actually down. I know CP3 is having a awesome season, but to saythat New Orleans success is pretty much ONLY because of him is not entirely true. I really think it has as much to do with New Orleans being healthy thisseason as it does with CP3 elevating his game, which he clearly has. I mean they were only 3 games out of the playoffs last year (39-43) and behind the Lakers(42-20) with all the injuries, so to say that no one expected them to make the playoffs or succeed.
I mean when you have 2 of your 3 top players out for big chunks of the season, you are bound to struggle. Oh wait, not in the Lakers case I guess, last yearand this year they were ravaged by injuries and this year specifically to 2 of their 3 best players, yet are only a game back of 1st place in the West. Do youreally think that Kobe isn't a major factor in why that is happening, I mean there is no way that Kobe could be creating for his teammates as well anddoing whatever he can to will them to wins could he?
Well take a look at this:
[table][tr][td]Year[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]DEF[/td] [td]RPG[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]SPG[/td] [td]BPG[/td] [td]TO[/td] [td]PF[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][/table]
David West's stats
06-07 NOK 52 52 36.5 0.476 0.320 0.824 2.4 5.7 8.2 2.2 0.8 0.7 1.88 2.80 18.3
07-08 NOH 66 66 37.7 0.477 0.273 0.840 2.4 6.6 9.0 2.3 0.8 1.3 2.21 2.80 20.4
Tyson Chandler's stats
06-07 NOK 73 73 34.6 0.624 0.000 0.527 4.4 8.0 12.4 0.9 0.5 1.8 1.73 3.30 9.5
07-08 NOH 69 69 35.4 0.606 0.000 0.599 4.2 7.9 12.1 1.0 0.6 1.1 1.77 3.10 11.7
Peja's stats
06-07 NOK 13 13 32.7 0.423 0.405 0.816 0.8 3.3 4.2 0.8 0.6 0.3 1.46 2.20 17.8
07-08 NOH 67 67 34.9 0.444 0.459 0.925 0.8 3.4 4.3 1.3 0.8 0.1 0.84 1.60 16.3
Since you keep saying stats don't lie well David West and Tyson Chandler are avg. 2 more pts per game than they did last year and similar numbers allaround pretty much. The major difference as you can see in what I've highlighted is their games played, outside of Chandler, West and Peja especiallyplayed way less games than they have up to this point this year. And Peja's points are actually down. I know CP3 is having a awesome season, but to saythat New Orleans success is pretty much ONLY because of him is not entirely true. I really think it has as much to do with New Orleans being healthy thisseason as it does with CP3 elevating his game, which he clearly has. I mean they were only 3 games out of the playoffs last year (39-43) and behind the Lakers(42-20) with all the injuries, so to say that no one expected them to make the playoffs or succeed.
I mean when you have 2 of your 3 top players out for big chunks of the season, you are bound to struggle. Oh wait, not in the Lakers case I guess, last yearand this year they were ravaged by injuries and this year specifically to 2 of their 3 best players, yet are only a game back of 1st place in the West. Do youreally think that Kobe isn't a major factor in why that is happening, I mean there is no way that Kobe could be creating for his teammates as well anddoing whatever he can to will them to wins could he?
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It's a lost cause because according to you the Lakers have so much more talent than the Hornets do. Forget than Bynum has only played 35 games out of 74and Pau 14 out of 74 for the Lakers and you're saying that Fisher+Odom+Turiaf, etc. are better than West+Peja+Chandler (for the entire season) + Pargoetc.? And if you watch the Lakers at the beginning of the season, Kobe was setting Bynum up A LOT ala CP3/Chandler and he also integrated Pau into the offensewithout any real adjustment period.
And I know you said team success at the very end of your argument, but your main focus is that Kobe's stats aren't better than the past years so heshouldn't be MVP. Well he HAD the best stats the past two years but what kept him from getting MVP was that the Lakers were a mediocre team. And now thatthe Lakers are an elite team this year, and as you said he has similar stats, WHAT WOULD keep him from getting it this year if the argument was that prettymuch the only reason he didn't get it b/c the Lakers were bad last yr? Whether you like it or not, the award has been tied to team success as evidenced byat least the past 7 winners. Stats/numbers don't mean everything like you continue to try and hammer home without your team winning. And last I checkedboth the Lakers and Hornets are doing a lot of winning and I guess by your standards 29 pts, 6 reb, 5 assists aren't good enough just because he's Kobeand he has had better seasons.
And I know you said team success at the very end of your argument, but your main focus is that Kobe's stats aren't better than the past years so heshouldn't be MVP. Well he HAD the best stats the past two years but what kept him from getting MVP was that the Lakers were a mediocre team. And now thatthe Lakers are an elite team this year, and as you said he has similar stats, WHAT WOULD keep him from getting it this year if the argument was that prettymuch the only reason he didn't get it b/c the Lakers were bad last yr? Whether you like it or not, the award has been tied to team success as evidenced byat least the past 7 winners. Stats/numbers don't mean everything like you continue to try and hammer home without your team winning. And last I checkedboth the Lakers and Hornets are doing a lot of winning and I guess by your standards 29 pts, 6 reb, 5 assists aren't good enough just because he's Kobeand he has had better seasons.
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on some things.
What I AM saying though is:
CP3 is the frontrunner. As of this minute.
Because his numbers back it up AND his team is backing it up.
Kobe is a VERY close second though.
It's a two man race in my book.
IF the Lakers finish AHEAD of CP3/Hornets, I would vote to give it to Kobe.
BUT, if the Hornets finish HIGHER than the Lakers, and taking EVERYTHING into account, I just don't see how one would give the nod to Kobe over CP3.
I can dig the, Kobe's never won it even though he put up great stats because his team wasn't that good, so, now that he's putting up good stats andhis team is doing good, he should get it.
I could dig that arguement.
I can't dig the whole, well, here you go, Lakers are contending, let's give it to Kobe automatically, because if he doesn't get it this year,there's never going to be a time to give it to him.
Or, Lakers are in contention out West because Kobe has stepped up his game this year.
Basically in my eyes, whoever finshes higher should get it. Just my opinion.
What I AM saying though is:
CP3 is the frontrunner. As of this minute.
Because his numbers back it up AND his team is backing it up.
Kobe is a VERY close second though.
It's a two man race in my book.
IF the Lakers finish AHEAD of CP3/Hornets, I would vote to give it to Kobe.
BUT, if the Hornets finish HIGHER than the Lakers, and taking EVERYTHING into account, I just don't see how one would give the nod to Kobe over CP3.
I can dig the, Kobe's never won it even though he put up great stats because his team wasn't that good, so, now that he's putting up good stats andhis team is doing good, he should get it.
I could dig that arguement.
I can't dig the whole, well, here you go, Lakers are contending, let's give it to Kobe automatically, because if he doesn't get it this year,there's never going to be a time to give it to him.
Or, Lakers are in contention out West because Kobe has stepped up his game this year.
Basically in my eyes, whoever finshes higher should get it. Just my opinion.
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What do you mean by Kobe hasn't stepped his game up? He isn't scoring as many points so he hasn't stepped his game up? Pretty much everyone inbasketball circles has commented on how much better Kobe has played this season because he has integrated and trusted his teammates like never before on thefloor, in the locker room, and off the court. Even though that last one has little to do with on court performance, it is a HUGE factor in his case because ofthe whole fiasco this summer with his trade demands and comments. He could have came out with the "It's all about me" attitude and just tried toget his and destroyed this season for the Lakers, but he didn't.
He is playing team ball and making his teammates better, despite you believing he isn't. Dude is playing with a serious injury to his shooting hand, buthasn't dropped off a bit from when he was fully healthy. I don't agree with the "due" argument either, but people are taking this whoeverfinishes higher a little too far. If the Lakers finish a 1/2 game ahead of the Hornets, then all of a sudden CP3 doesn't get the MVP or vice versa withKobe. Their total body of work over the season and the amount of adversity they've each faced should be a factor as well, I mean use common sense.
Actually I'd rather not him win it so he can go off in the playoffs, cause I know he'd be extra mad. But Kobe is equally deserving of the MVP as CP3 isright now.
He is playing team ball and making his teammates better, despite you believing he isn't. Dude is playing with a serious injury to his shooting hand, buthasn't dropped off a bit from when he was fully healthy. I don't agree with the "due" argument either, but people are taking this whoeverfinishes higher a little too far. If the Lakers finish a 1/2 game ahead of the Hornets, then all of a sudden CP3 doesn't get the MVP or vice versa withKobe. Their total body of work over the season and the amount of adversity they've each faced should be a factor as well, I mean use common sense.
Actually I'd rather not him win it so he can go off in the playoffs, cause I know he'd be extra mad. But Kobe is equally deserving of the MVP as CP3 isright now.
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Franchise your hate for Kobe is showing....
Kobe doesnt make his teammates better?
He only makes the game easier for them?
Hillarious
I think you are still pissed off at the lakers knocking the rockets out a couple years back...
That has to be the reason because the reasons you are giving that Kobe shouldnt be mvp is hillarious...
Michael Jordan's game wasnt like Chris Paul or Lebron James yet he made his teammates better.
How?
By making the game easier for them.
Kobe doesnt make his teammates better?
He only makes the game easier for them?
Hillarious
I think you are still pissed off at the lakers knocking the rockets out a couple years back...
That has to be the reason because the reasons you are giving that Kobe shouldnt be mvp is hillarious...
Michael Jordan's game wasnt like Chris Paul or Lebron James yet he made his teammates better.
How?
By making the game easier for them.
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what a useless stat.
How do you figure? Defense is useless now?
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No defense isn't useless. But that stat is. Reminds me of a lot of Hollinger's "stats" and numbers. Who exactly is KG guarding? How long ishe guarding them? It's just too many factors to be taken seriously. I mean of course KG guarding Eddy Curry, Samuel Dalembert, etc. is going yield him tohave better defensive #s because they aren't that good. Or let me put it another way, there aren't as many superstar caliber big men as there areswingmen in the NBA.
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I don't understand. Are you saying because there aren't as many superstar big men, as swingmen, his defense of them is not as important?
Kobe scored 53 points the other night, and lost to the Grizzlies. Why? Because the Lakers couldn't guard the paint. No superstar big men on Memphis but ifyou can't stop them someone like Darko can get easy baskets. He scored 20, and the Grizzlies had 60 points in the paint from so called scrubs.
The fact that KG is a superstar big man, by your theory might make him even more valuable because they are more rare.
Kobe scored 53 points the other night, and lost to the Grizzlies. Why? Because the Lakers couldn't guard the paint. No superstar big men on Memphis but ifyou can't stop them someone like Darko can get easy baskets. He scored 20, and the Grizzlies had 60 points in the paint from so called scrubs.
The fact that KG is a superstar big man, by your theory might make him even more valuable because they are more rare.
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no I'm saying that there aren't as many good/great offensive bigmen in the NBA as there are swingmen? That's all. I mean based on who they areplaying CP3, Bron, Kobe have to guard usually the other team's best player (9/10) that's a swingman. I mean I could count on one hand the number of bigmen who are the best players on their teams (Dwight, Yao, Duncan, maybe Amare, and Al Jefferson). So I was just saying the caliber of the opposition that theswingmen guard overall is better (T-Mac, AI, Melo, VC, Nash, D-Will, etc.)
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Here are a little more definitive numbers. These are numbers of the elite PF's in the game, that KG guards.
Antawn Jamison
season average (sa)- 22 ppg, 44% fgp
Against KG (AKG)- 13 ppg, 31% fgp
Chris Bosh
SA - 22 ppg, 50% fgp
AKG- 20 ppg, 45% fgp
Zach Randolph
SA - 18 ppg, 46% fgp
AKG- 14 ppg, 32% fgp
Rasheed Wallace
SA - 13 ppg, 44%
AKG- 16 ppg, 40%
Carlos Boozer
SA- 22ppg 55%
AKG- 18 ppg, 52%
LaMarcus Aldridge
SA- 18 ppg, 49%
AKG-15 ppg, 48%
Dirk Nowitzki
SA - 24 ppg, 48%
AKG- 22 ppg, 40%
Tim Duncan
SA - 20 ppg, 50%
AKG- 16 ppg, 50%
Amare Stoudemire
SA- 25 ppg, 59%
AKG- 30 ppg, 54%
The Elite PF's are averaging 20.5 PPG and have are shooting 49.5% from the field
Against KG they are averaging 17 PPG and are only shooting 43% from the field.
Very solid numbers. Factor in that he's anchoring the best defensive team, with players not necessarily considered great defenders in front of him, andI'd say that is a worthy facet for an MVP canidate.
Antawn Jamison
season average (sa)- 22 ppg, 44% fgp
Against KG (AKG)- 13 ppg, 31% fgp
Chris Bosh
SA - 22 ppg, 50% fgp
AKG- 20 ppg, 45% fgp
Zach Randolph
SA - 18 ppg, 46% fgp
AKG- 14 ppg, 32% fgp
Rasheed Wallace
SA - 13 ppg, 44%
AKG- 16 ppg, 40%
Carlos Boozer
SA- 22ppg 55%
AKG- 18 ppg, 52%
LaMarcus Aldridge
SA- 18 ppg, 49%
AKG-15 ppg, 48%
Dirk Nowitzki
SA - 24 ppg, 48%
AKG- 22 ppg, 40%
Tim Duncan
SA - 20 ppg, 50%
AKG- 16 ppg, 50%
Amare Stoudemire
SA- 25 ppg, 59%
AKG- 30 ppg, 54%
The Elite PF's are averaging 20.5 PPG and have are shooting 49.5% from the field
Against KG they are averaging 17 PPG and are only shooting 43% from the field.
Very solid numbers. Factor in that he's anchoring the best defensive team, with players not necessarily considered great defenders in front of him, andI'd say that is a worthy facet for an MVP canidate.
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im just curious,
can you attribute the emergence of guys like sasha vujajic, farmar, walton, ronny turiaf to kobe making his teammates better?
edit*
i didn't even see noble's post, but that's what i was basically trying to get at.
can you attribute the emergence of guys like sasha vujajic, farmar, walton, ronny turiaf to kobe making his teammates better?
edit*
i didn't even see noble's post, but that's what i was basically trying to get at.
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Originally Posted by denni5themenace
im just curious,
can you attribute the emergence of guys like sasha vujajic, farmar, walton, ronny turiaf to kobe making his teammates better?
edit*
i didn't even see noble's post, but that's what i was basically trying to get at.
according to franchise, no. it is soley a product of them just stepping up their game and kobe has nothing to do with their improvement.
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Originally Posted by NobleKane
Franchise your hate for Kobe is showing....
Kobe doesnt make his teammates better?
He only makes the game easier for them?
Hillarious
Michael Jordan's game wasnt like Chris Paul or Lebron James yet he made his teammates better.
How?
By making the game easier for them.
Exactly. I mean that's my whole point Kobe is OBVIOUSLY making the game a whole lot easier for his teammates but that doesn't equate to making thembetter? If they stepped up so much, how do they do when Kobe isn't in the game or when he isn't passing them the ball(Memphis game)? Pretty darnterrible. Matter of fact the last two games are PERFECT examples of how he is making his teammates better. He just made the game so much easier and look howthey respond. Every time this man does something there arises some reasoning as to how he has nothing to do with it. It's sad because he WILL go down as atthe very least the #2 SG in history and top 10 EVER. Let's just say for the sake of argument that they 3 peat. Then the excuse will be "well he hadGasol and Bynum". It never stops and years like this when he should be a favorite make it painfully obvious. Not to say that CP3 shouldn't get somelooks or he isn't close or that Kobe is "due" but dang we are witnessing history and we refuse to enjoy it. Really sad.
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