Another Religious Thread: If God is All-good, All-powerful, and All-knowing...

[heavinsent15]

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

So you guys still say that god is ALL-GOOD, even thought he lets innocent people die when HE HAS THE POWER to save them.

He has the power to do anything and is all good at the same time. Is God really the one to blame? All the evil in the world that exists today isour fault yet we point fingers at Him. He has the power but then He would be hindering our free will if He stopped the innocent man from dying. When therobber has the free will to shoot the man is it his fault or God's? God is perfect in every way, shape, and form and He leaves our actions up to us. Hedidn't choose not to save us but He can't. If He intervened then the free will thing is out the window and He wouldn't be perfect anymore.

Do I believe that I'm a good person even if I didn't save the person? Sure I would. Allowing that person to die is a major wrongdoing on my part butI'm sure I'd be overcome with guilt after the incident. Who's to blame me for having such a great fear? (which is probably the primary reason whyI wouldn't save the man)

Last question I can't even think of an answer because that actually baffles me sometimes but in the end my faith stays strong and I'll leave everythingup to Him.

 

[tupac jordan]

Is bible god pathetically insecure?
Why does he need our worship? Imagine knowing a person who feels a need to be worshiped by an ant colony in his back yard.

Moreover, imagine this person vowing to burn the ants for eternity if they don't worship him in just the right way.

Would you think him an insane sadist?

Can people really be threatened into loving such a god?

 

[thebachellor]

Internet atheists for the loss.

Come talk when you're willing to voice your opinion in public, like real philosophers and non-believers.

I only know about 4 non-believers of various types (agnostics, atheists, etc) IRL... yet NT is filled to the brim with "us".

Posers.

 

[joe camel smooth]

also.....don't the vast amount of religions and the differences between them make you question them?

there are the monotheistic modern religions, sure, but there are a whole slew, many of them from ancient times, with multiple gods who control the wind, sea,etc.

it seems that these religions are humankind's way of explaining the unknown........apollo towing the sun around in his chariot, god creating light anddark, etc.

as well as assuaging our fears........the existential fear of the unknown that comes with death and the afterlife......whether we are judged by god and chosenfor heaven or hell, or cross the river stix, etc.

and maybe even governing society's behavior, or at least providing another method of enforcing good behavior, wih the punishment being spiritual instead oflegal.......whether this means being damned to hell, or being reincarnated, etc.

i don't know......i mean i hope that there is a "god" of some sorts, or at least some afterlife. but i see no evidence for it

 

[DeadsetAce]

im not sold on religion...but i respect those that are. i get why you practice and why you believe...i just don't share the same view.

 

[agentarenas]

Originally Posted by JOE CAMEL SMOOTH

also.....don't the vast amount of religions and the differences between them make you question them?

there are the monotheistic modern religions, sure, but there are a whole slew, many of them from ancient times, with multiple gods who control the wind, sea, etc.

it seems that these religions are humankind's way of explaining the unknown........apollo towing the sun around in his chariot, god creating light and dark, etc.

as well as assuaging our fears........the existential fear of the unknown that comes with death and the afterlife......whether we are judged by god and chosen for heaven or hell, or cross the river stix, etc.

and maybe even governing society's behavior, or at least providing another method of enforcing good behavior, wih the punishment being spiritual instead of legal.......whether this means being damned to hell, or being reincarnated, etc.

i don't know......i mean i hope that there is a "god" of some sorts, or at least some afterlife. but i see no evidence for it

Have you read Genealogy of Morals by Friedrich Nietzsche? I personally disagreed with it all but it was a very interesting read nonetheless. Youshould look into it.

 

[joe camel smooth]

Originally Posted by AgentArenas

Originally Posted by JOE CAMEL SMOOTH

also.....don't the vast amount of religions and the differences between them make you question them?

there are the monotheistic modern religions, sure, but there are a whole slew, many of them from ancient times, with multiple gods who control the wind, sea, etc.

it seems that these religions are humankind's way of explaining the unknown........apollo towing the sun around in his chariot, god creating light and dark, etc.

as well as assuaging our fears........the existential fear of the unknown that comes with death and the afterlife......whether we are judged by god and chosen for heaven or hell, or cross the river stix, etc.

and maybe even governing society's behavior, or at least providing another method of enforcing good behavior, wih the punishment being spiritual instead of legal.......whether this means being damned to hell, or being reincarnated, etc.

i don't know......i mean i hope that there is a "god" of some sorts, or at least some afterlife. but i see no evidence for it

Have you read Genealogy of Morals by Friedrich Nietzsche? I personally disagreed with it all but it was a very interesting read nonetheless. You should look into it.

no ive read some of this other stuff though.....interesting stuff but existentialism depresses the %@%% outta me in anything other than smallinfrequent doses.

 

[agentarenas]

Originally Posted by JOE CAMEL SMOOTH

Originally Posted by AgentArenas

Originally Posted by JOE CAMEL SMOOTH

also.....don't the vast amount of religions and the differences between them make you question them?

there are the monotheistic modern religions, sure, but there are a whole slew, many of them from ancient times, with multiple gods who control the wind, sea, etc.

it seems that these religions are humankind's way of explaining the unknown........apollo towing the sun around in his chariot, god creating light and dark, etc.

as well as assuaging our fears........the existential fear of the unknown that comes with death and the afterlife......whether we are judged by god and chosen for heaven or hell, or cross the river stix, etc.

and maybe even governing society's behavior, or at least providing another method of enforcing good behavior, wih the punishment being spiritual instead of legal.......whether this means being damned to hell, or being reincarnated, etc.

i don't know......i mean i hope that there is a "god" of some sorts, or at least some afterlife. but i see no evidence for it

Have you read Genealogy of Morals by Friedrich Nietzsche? I personally disagreed with it all but it was a very interesting read nonetheless. You should look into it.

no ive read some of this other stuff though.....interesting stuff but existentialism depresses the %@%% outta me in anything other than small infrequent doses.

Yeah I get you. I think Genealogy was a little differentthan his other stuff though. Towards the end he basically asserts that mankind has destroyed its ability to simply act - the way an animal does, and throughthat mankind basically uses asceticism and religion as some sort of hope to relieve the pain of its own "sins" which aren't sins at all.

Lighthearted, fun stuff

 

[galvelocity]

only part i have an issue with is the burden of proof part.

not that it's not a valid point, but to me.....this seems religion is the sort of thing you need to provide, if not proof, at least some compelling evidence for.
I agree entirely. I in no way mean any offense, and this analogy is kind of convoluted, but it will work for the purposes of my explanation.Basically the evidence for religion and the evidence for magic is pretty similar. What religious people call 'miracles' I could just as easily insistare acts of magic. But if I did so, everyone would ask if I was mentally unstable, even though religious people have no more proof for their claim than I do.Let's say both I and a religious person just had a loved one recover from a terminal illness against all odds:

Religious individual: "It's a miracle! A physical manifestation of a higher power!"
Me: "It's magic! Wizards are real! Totally knew it all along!"

Everyone else: "Galvelocity, sober up, that obviously doesn't make any sense. Everyone knows magic isn't real because you can't prove it is.Religious individual, that's really nice for you. It's totally a miracle because you can't prove it's not."

And I don't mean to make fun or belittle anyone's faith, because believing in miracles can be a wonderful thing, especially in times of trial. I justthink it's a double standard that if someone gave shoutouts to Gandalf when cool, unexplainable stuff happened, people would think it's stupid whenthere's just as much proof for that as there is for religion.

Also obviously not asking that we worship Gandalf. Just tryin to keep the thread conversational and light-hearted. *dons kevlar vest and prepares for shots tobe fired*

And to you, sir:

Internet atheists for the loss.

Come talk when you're willing to voice your opinion in public, like real philosophers and non-believers.

I only know about 4 non-believers of various types (agnostics, atheists, etc) IRL... yet NT is filled to the brim with "us".

Posers.
I was raised catholic and went to catholic school my entire life, so I'm very well educated in that facet of religion. When religion ingeneral stopped adding up for me, I was about 16, though I had stopped believing in God years earlier. I have spent the five years since studying theworld's religions as well as collections of atheist literature to educate myself on the subject so that I could have a valid opinion, and I'm as devoutan atheist as ever. Before you call us out as being lower than you in some way because our views on being atheist are different from yours, I suggest you stopand consider how you're confirming the reputation atheists have for being elitist, pretentious a-holes, and pipe the eff down.

 

[its that dude]

If it's not my responsibility to save them, then why should i be held accountable for their demise--especially when they could have very well done something to negate their tragic fate.

I don't see how my "good-ness" would be in jeopardy, or questionable.

That said, why should God be held accountable for the evil ways of men, when we (men) are very much capable of good, but choose to practice otherwise. Check the nature of your fellow man before you decide to question that of God.


So you would say you're still good after letting someone die when you had the power to save them? My scenario is just one of many. Throw Zik's naturaldisasters in and I don't see how people can say God is Good? I was just giving an example that was easy to put yourself into.

I didn't say that God should be held accountable. I'm just saying that I don't think he's all good, and how can anyone else say he's allgood.

Honestly there's a saying for this or lil story or w/e it's called.

A man asked GOD why did he let evil things happen to the innocent and GOD simply replied "Why did you?"

Those two horrible events in mankind's history you bring up could've been stopped by GOD but it also could've been stopped by ppl as well. All it takes for evil to prosper is for "good" men to do nothing.

Think about how the world would be if GOD bailed us out every time we were gonna wipe out a good amount of our own kind due to evil intentions or even curiosity. We'd be babies relying on our Superman to stop us and we'd be incredibly reckless.

Now if you bring up natural disasters I can see where you're coming from a lil more.


the story "why did god let evil things happen" when it should be why DOES god let evil things happen. Like you said, he's all knowing, but evilthings will still happen. He can then stop the evil things, but he chooses not to. How can one say that God is ALL-GOOD?

and I imagine a life without evil and/or sin would be like heaven? and let's throw in natural disasters for fun.

He has the power to do anything and is all good at the same time. Is God really the one to blame? All the evil in the world that exists today is our fault yet we point fingers at Him. He has the power but then He would be hindering our free will if He stopped the innocent man from dying. When the robber has the free will to shoot the man is it his fault or God's? God is perfect in every way, shape, and form and He leaves our actions up to us. He didn't choose not to save us but He can't. If He intervened then the free will thing is out the window and He wouldn't be perfect anymore.

Do I believe that I'm a good person even if I didn't save the person? Sure I would. Allowing that person to die is a major wrongdoing on my part but I'm sure I'd be overcome with guilt after the incident. Who's to blame me for having such a great fear? (which is probably the primary reason why I wouldn't save the man)

Last question I can't even think of an answer because that actually baffles me sometimes but in the end my faith stays strong and I'll leave everything up to Him.


So you'd say that God is not all-good right?

Internet atheists for the loss.

Come talk when you're willing to voice your opinion in public, like real philosophers and non-believers.

I only know about 4 non-believers of various types (agnostics, atheists, etc) IRL... yet NT is filled to the brim with "us".

Posers.

Where do you live? I'm in LA, plenty of us out here. along with the religious ****oos as well..

and I have voiced my opinion off of the internet

you think I'm Dr. Jekyll and Hyde or something?

and how the hell did you know that I'm an atheist? I'm just asking how people can still say god is all-good.

stop assuming things.

Assumer.



I'm NOT ASKING WHOSE FAULT IS IT THAT INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE..but how you can still say GOD IS ALL-GOOD when he has the POWER TO SAVE THEM?

 

[shaunhillftw49]

On the subject of Free Will, a good book is How We Decide by Jonah Lehrer

 

[jimmy blanco1983]

God is all knowing and The Almighty. He is a loving and merciful God, but that does not mean that He will not use His wrath. It is the same scenario as a childdisobeying their parents. The parent must discipline the child, so that the kid knows hes messed up. There are consequences. Most of the time it results in awhooping, but in these times you might get Social Services called on you.......SMH. Even though the parent had to spank the child, it doesn't change thelove for the child. Now on the flip side, many people wonder why do bad things happen to innocent people. It is a shame, but that is life. If everyday was agood day it would be hard for many people to appreciate the actual good days. For example, you can look at the story of Job from the Bible. Job is described asperfect and upright man in very good health. He was faithful to God and was very blessed. He had a large beautiful family and was very wealthy. Satan tooknotice to Job and his blessings and tested God. The devil claimed that the only reason that Job was faithful and just was due to the fact Job was basically"living the good life." God knew that was not the case so He allowed the Devil to take Job's wealth, children, and physical health. Satan wastempting Job to curse God's name and claim God was unjust. Job remained faithful and for that he was blessed with waaaaay more than he originally had andlived to be 140 years old.

As the old cliche goes, "The Lord works in mysterious ways." Sometimes God wants to see your heart. It's easy to be faithful when times are good,but what about when times are bad? Imagine a sports team winning a bunch of championships and then going to the bottom of their league years later. Are yougoing to be a fair-weather fan? You gotta take the good with the bad, so that you can really appreciate the good.

So, that is just one way to look at things. We as humans have no way to understand why everythings happens, but we are blessed enough to have the Bible toguide us in our lives.

 

[torgriffith]

Well the problem seems to be your interpretation of the word , or what people say about Him. To say He is all good is not to say that is His sole attribute.All things is just is just one of the many forms God encompasses. Once you understand polarity as a law of the universe, one can see the duality of said andlike events.

 

[prostaffer]

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Scenario:

Someone is being robbed at gunpoint. Robber says, "Give me the money or I'll kill you."

There you are standing behind the robber with a gun. You have the power to stop him. He doesn't know you're there. But yet, you choose not to stop the robber. The person being robbed doesn't give up their money. The robbers shoots them and kills them.

Can you really say that you are still a good person after letting that person die, even though you deliberately chose not to save them? I definitely can't.

Can you say you're still good?


So how can a Christian say God is all-good when God has the power to stop evil, but purposely chooses not to stop it?

Furthermore, if you were raised without being taught that God is all-good, would you really say that God is all-good after growing up and seeing the kinds of things happen in this world?

god doesn't say he's good.

also humans have a thing called free-will. look it up. we bring everything upon ourselves.

 

[galvelocity]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Scenario:

Someone is being robbed at gunpoint. Robber says, "Give me the money or I'll kill you."

There you are standing behind the robber with a gun. You have the power to stop him. He doesn't know you're there. But yet, you choose not to stop the robber. The person being robbed doesn't give up their money. The robbers shoots them and kills them.

Can you really say that you are still a good person after letting that person die, even though you deliberately chose not to save them? I definitely can't.

Can you say you're still good?


So how can a Christian say God is all-good when God has the power to stop evil, but purposely chooses not to stop it?

Furthermore, if you were raised without being taught that God is all-good, would you really say that God is all-good after growing up and seeing the kinds of things happen in this world?

god doesn't say he's good.

also humans have a thing called free-will. look it up. we bring everything upon ourselves.

The whole "worship me" thing has "I'm better than you" connotations, I think. If all people in the entire human race(including people like Mother Theresa and Ghandi) are inferior enough that we're supposed to bow down to Him, He's saying He's a pretty awesomedude, IMO.

 

[darthska]

These arguments go nowhere because of two things: stubbornness and narrow-mindedness.

For the record, I mean from any and all sides.

People ask questions already believing what they want to believe, and people answer questions with no intention of learning anything new from the personthey're trying to 'fix' or 'convert'.

Go to a math tutor thoroughly convinced that 2+ 2 = filet mignon and carry with you a complete unwillingness to understand how that perspective is wrong, andyou'll get as far with him as you would anyone else asking questions about God with an already established, thorough conviction that they are completelyunwilling to have shaken or compromised.

 

[dathbgboy]

Here we go w/ a thread trying to force ur beliefs on other ppl or to get pats on the back. Do u really sit around and think of different scenarios to disproveGod? If so then u need to write a book. Man has free will. Everything that is going to happen has been forseen. The Lord has a plan for everyone, but it is upto man to follow the plan the Lord has laid out for him/her. It's like ur parents savin up for u to go to Harvard. That's there plan for u, however, uhave free will to choose Yale.

 

[galvelocity]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

These arguments go nowhere because of two things: stubbornness and narrow-mindedness.

For the record, I mean from any and all sides.

People ask questions already believing what they want to believe, and people answer questions with no intention of learning anything new from the person they're trying to 'fix' or 'convert'.

Go to a math tutor thoroughly convinced that 2+ 2 = filet mignon and carry with you a complete unwillingness to understand how that perspective is wrong, and you'll get as far with him as you would anyone else asking questions about God with an already established, thorough conviction that they are completely unwilling to have shaken or compromised.

What if you're like me and went from devoutly religious to devoutly atheist after taking the time to educate yourself the best way you knewhow? Obviously I was open-minded or I would still be religious. And obviously I wouldn't still be reading about religion to learn about it if I was justgoing to say it was stupid in a blanket statement.

I do get your point though

And FTR I'm not trying to 'fix' anyone, I just genuinely enjoy religious debate because the answers of those with opposite ideologies to mine giveme a lot to think about and puzzle over.

 

[swoboydehteezy]

Originally Posted by kix4kix

Free will is a bunch of BS.

This.

If we didn't choose the environment into which we would be born/raised, and every decision we make is based off of information from our past, how could wehave free will?

In a sense, every decision that we "make" has already been made for us. We are slaves to circumstance.

 

[wwsindicate]

Darwin.

 

[vsano]

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

How about this scenario. If the person being robbed really valued their life, why didn't they just hand over the money.

Why is the life of the potential victim your responsibility as the bystander?


...

Let's just say some people are stupid.

I'm not saying its our responsibilty to stop them. I'm asking if you can still say you're a good person, after letting that person die when you could have saved them.

same question goes for God. How can people say he's all-good when things like this happen.

Tough question... The devil really makes things confusing & he plays well with our free will... But right now I don't know what are theappropriate words to say, though, I still hold firmly in this so called " faith"...

 

[violet24]

the existence of free will allows for the possibility of evil.

for instance, the holocaust. humanity has to accept some of the blame. hitler was voted into office. countless countries shut their doors to the jews fleeinggermany. the allied forces refused to bomb auschwitz. when hitler began his terror campaign, other nations did nothing to help. sometimes, evil exists becausepeople allow it to.

even now. children are dying in countries from lack of food and medical attention. the genocide in darfur is ravaging the people of sudan. food is being thrownout every night, when thousands of homeless people are starving in our own streets. God gave us one another. we have to care and help those less fortunate.with free will comes the option of choosing - you can choose to contribute to humanity positively, in the same way that you can choose to kill, and thus impactthe world in a negative manner.

i don't know why God lets such devastation occurs. the closest i can come up with is i think that God's thoughts are not our thoughts.we're not able to see the big picture. my psychology professor explained it in this way - just like a dog can't fully comprehend its master, the samewith humans and God. i think that makes sense. because of the holocaust, anti semitism is being eradicated from the church. israel was established. people havebecome aware.

i think a lot of religion has to do with where you were brought up - the middle east, the US, asia .. whether you're buddhist, christian, muslim, jewish,etc., we're all searching for the same thing - to find the creator and to venerate him. all faiths are a testament to something we cannotunderstand, something to which we are responsible for. we're responsible to a higher truth, to each other, and to ourselves. in the end, i don't knowif it matters what representation of "God", "Yawhew", "Allah", etc. we are devout to. i think he is one and the same.

as for blind faith in God - i think that's a common misconception. the book of hebrews defines faith as the "substance of things hoped for" andthe "evidence of sight unseen." however, god gave us a brain and encourages to think. proverbs is brimming with sentences telling us to increase ourknowledge and wisdom. paul told timothy to keep studying and learning (II timothy 2:15). faith is a decision to trust. BLIND faith is when you believesomething without being given rational or tangible reasons to keep your faith, yet trust anyway. that's not what the truly religious do.

"you will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."

as for proof that God exists .. c.s. lewis has written some phenomenal books concerning religion. he was an atheist for awhile, then converted. "surprisedby joy" is a really nice read. also, anselm's ontological argument, found in the second chapter of his proslogion. then there is the power of prayer,the obtainment of a miracle through the divine intercession of our lord, mary, and the saints .. the world itself.

oh, and i'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, so please don't take it that way.

 

[darthska]

Galvelocity:

---

23ska909red02:

---

These arguments go nowhere because of two things: stubbornness and narrow-mindedness.

For the record, I mean from any and all sides.

People ask questions already believing what they want to believe, and people answer questions with no intention of learning anything new from the person they're trying to 'fix' or 'convert'.

Go to a math tutor thoroughly convinced that 2+ 2 = filet mignon and carry with you a complete unwillingness to understand how that perspective is wrong, and you'll get as far with him as you would anyone else asking questions about God with an already established, thorough conviction that they are completely unwilling to have shaken or compromised.
What if you're like me and went from devoutly religious to devoutly atheist after taking the time to educate yourself the best way you knew how? Obviously I was open-minded or I would still be religious. And obviously I wouldn't still be reading about religion to learn about it if I was just going to say it was stupid in a blanket statement.
My closest friend right now fits that description. Got a ton of respect for dude.

I don't call myself a Christian, because I don't want the negative stigma associated with today's Christians attached to me, but I do believe thereis a God, and I try to live according to that belief. I wasn't raised according to the way I believe, and I can definitely respect anyone who has developedtheir own belief system, even if the belief system they subscribe to is completely different than mine.

 

[mrgrapes85]

If god stopped the robber, how would he know he's doing wrong? How would anyone know that they're doing wrong, anytime something bad were to happen, wewould just know that god would stop it, doesn't make any sense?

 

[onhollowedground821]

I could go into and give a long answer like I do everytime I hear this in real life, But this is NT and that is a waste of typing for nobody to read so here ismy boy Lecrae breaking it down..........If you dont wanna hear the whole song just listen to the last 1:15........we say why doessnt God stop bad things, butwe dont ask what "bad" things are wrong/bad to him not our idea of bad