Anfernee Hardaway or Tracy McGrady Vol. #1 in Orlando

[DCAllAfrican]

1. You say that you don't remember Penny's defense but you say he was better on the defensive end than TMAC? Ok

2. You have yet to give a concrete non-emotional based reason why Penny was nicer.

3. You ARE penalizing TMAC for not playing in the same era as Penny. He can't help when he was born. So to even say, "Because Q played in R era, he must be better than S that played in T era." No it doesn't work like that. You base people on what they did in THEIR era.

I really believe you all are allowing Penny's pop-culture popularity cloud your judgement.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by bob4rmmarketing

Let's throw out this "no help" line. He didn't have another dominate player to play with, but it's not like it's 1 on 5. You have role players that play their roles, everyone is not going to be an All-Star. 

Listen to you man. Think about what you are saying. A team with one dominant player and the rest role players should still excel because the role players play their roles? I mean they are still playing BETTER teams, why SHOULD they win?

TMAC became the number 1 option only after Grant Hill was shelved with that ankle injury.  As good as he was, there's no reason, in the playoffs, that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game. You had the Jordan himself saying that he was comfortable passing the torch to Penny Hardaway. 
So what @ why he became the #1 option. He was the #1 option. As good as HE was there is no reason that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game? As if it was his fault right? Look above, HIM..................the rest of his team. It was not his fault his team lost that serious. I do not understand why we can't get past this point.

Bringing up Jordan means what in this conversation?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by bob4rmmarketing

Let's throw out this "no help" line. He didn't have another dominate player to play with, but it's not like it's 1 on 5. You have role players that play their roles, everyone is not going to be an All-Star. 

Listen to you man. Think about what you are saying. A team with one dominant player and the rest role players should still excel because the role players play their roles? I mean they are still playing BETTER teams, why SHOULD they win?

TMAC became the number 1 option only after Grant Hill was shelved with that ankle injury.  As good as he was, there's no reason, in the playoffs, that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game. You had the Jordan himself saying that he was comfortable passing the torch to Penny Hardaway. 
So what @ why he became the #1 option. He was the #1 option. As good as HE was there is no reason that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game? As if it was his fault right? Look above, HIM..................the rest of his team. It was not his fault his team lost that serious. I do not understand why we can't get past this point.

Bringing up Jordan means what in this conversation?

 

[thepointgod]

lettuce be reality.  Penny is my favorite athlete in all of sports, but tmac is definitely a better player.  I'd rather have Penny on my team, and I'll figure out ways to justify it (e.g. Penny is a better team player; Penny would've been better if he hadn't gotten injured; Penny went to the Finals)), but you're kidding yourself if you think Anfernee > Tracy.

 

[thepointgod]

lettuce be reality.  Penny is my favorite athlete in all of sports, but tmac is definitely a better player.  I'd rather have Penny on my team, and I'll figure out ways to justify it (e.g. Penny is a better team player; Penny would've been better if he hadn't gotten injured; Penny went to the Finals)), but you're kidding yourself if you think Anfernee > Tracy.

 

[bob4rmmarketing]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

1. You say that you don't remember Penny's defense but you say he was better on the defensive end than TMAC? Ok

2. You have yet to give a concrete non-emotional based reason why Penny was nicer.

3. You ARE penalizing TMAC for not playing in the same era as Penny. He can't help when he was born. So to even say, "Because Q played in R era, he must be better than S that played in T era." No it doesn't work like that. You base people on what they did in THEIR era.

I really believe you all are allowing Penny's pop-culture popularity cloud your judgement.

1. No. I did not say I don't remember Penny's defense. I said he was a better defender than T-Mac. Then I went on to say: I'm not going to remember for defense, but for putting a ball in the hoop. Let me correct. "I'm not going to remember T-MAC for HIS defense, but for his offense."
2. Concrete as in statistics? If one is to look soley at stats, of course you're going to conclude that T-Mac is a better player. But I'm not basing my whole decision on stats alone. I'm looking at what you have done individually AND what you've done for your team. Penny had deep playoff runs, made it to the Finals, Olympic Gold Medalists. Dude was a winner. Is that still being emotional?

3. Let me stab at this again...if I'm basing this on what players do in "THEIR" era...what has he (T-Mac) done?  I'm saying that Penny was successful against way stiffer competition, and T-Mac was unsuccessful against lesser competition. 

My judgement is clear. Just because it differs from yours, doesnt make mine clouded.

 

[bob4rmmarketing]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

1. You say that you don't remember Penny's defense but you say he was better on the defensive end than TMAC? Ok

2. You have yet to give a concrete non-emotional based reason why Penny was nicer.

3. You ARE penalizing TMAC for not playing in the same era as Penny. He can't help when he was born. So to even say, "Because Q played in R era, he must be better than S that played in T era." No it doesn't work like that. You base people on what they did in THEIR era.

I really believe you all are allowing Penny's pop-culture popularity cloud your judgement.

1. No. I did not say I don't remember Penny's defense. I said he was a better defender than T-Mac. Then I went on to say: I'm not going to remember for defense, but for putting a ball in the hoop. Let me correct. "I'm not going to remember T-MAC for HIS defense, but for his offense."
2. Concrete as in statistics? If one is to look soley at stats, of course you're going to conclude that T-Mac is a better player. But I'm not basing my whole decision on stats alone. I'm looking at what you have done individually AND what you've done for your team. Penny had deep playoff runs, made it to the Finals, Olympic Gold Medalists. Dude was a winner. Is that still being emotional?

3. Let me stab at this again...if I'm basing this on what players do in "THEIR" era...what has he (T-Mac) done?  I'm saying that Penny was successful against way stiffer competition, and T-Mac was unsuccessful against lesser competition. 

My judgement is clear. Just because it differs from yours, doesnt make mine clouded.

 

[bob4rmmarketing]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by bob4rmmarketing

Let's throw out this "no help" line. He didn't have another dominate player to play with, but it's not like it's 1 on 5. You have role players that play their roles, everyone is not going to be an All-Star. 

Listen to you man. Think about what you are saying. A team with one dominant player and the rest role players should still excel because the role players play their roles? I mean they are still playing BETTER teams, why SHOULD they win?

TMAC became the number 1 option only after Grant Hill was shelved with that ankle injury.  As good as he was, there's no reason, in the playoffs, that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game. You had the Jordan himself saying that he was comfortable passing the torch to Penny Hardaway. 

So what @ why he became the #1 option. He was the #1 option. As good as HE was there is no reason that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game? As if it was his fault right? Look above, HIM..................the rest of his team. It was not his fault his team lost that serious. I do not understand why we can't get past this point.

Bringing up Jordan means what in this conversation?



I'm saying that people like to throw in this "he had no help" excuse like he's winning these games by himself. Help is defined by how many all-stars are on your team?? 
I'm not saying he's the sole reason that they were losing by the amount they were losing by, but you are the best player on this team. A very vital piece on this team. You are the captain. You mean to tell me, you can't find a way to win 1 game out of 3. 1 game? Scratch all the highlights, all the stats, blah ze blah, win the game, get out of the 1st round, ONCE. You have Penny and his Magic, the ONLY team to beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. Why bring up MJ? He is the standard. If you have the standard saying that you are worth enough to be passed the torch, what is a greater compliment?? You can't get past this point and maybe it's not meant for you to get past. 

This is MY opinion. Who would you rather have? I said Penny over Tmac. Imma stand by that. No need for the back and forth.

 

[bob4rmmarketing]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by bob4rmmarketing

Let's throw out this "no help" line. He didn't have another dominate player to play with, but it's not like it's 1 on 5. You have role players that play their roles, everyone is not going to be an All-Star. 

Listen to you man. Think about what you are saying. A team with one dominant player and the rest role players should still excel because the role players play their roles? I mean they are still playing BETTER teams, why SHOULD they win?

TMAC became the number 1 option only after Grant Hill was shelved with that ankle injury.  As good as he was, there's no reason, in the playoffs, that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game. You had the Jordan himself saying that he was comfortable passing the torch to Penny Hardaway. 

So what @ why he became the #1 option. He was the #1 option. As good as HE was there is no reason that you should be up 3-1 on a team and lose 3 straight by more than 20 each game? As if it was his fault right? Look above, HIM..................the rest of his team. It was not his fault his team lost that serious. I do not understand why we can't get past this point.

Bringing up Jordan means what in this conversation?



I'm saying that people like to throw in this "he had no help" excuse like he's winning these games by himself. Help is defined by how many all-stars are on your team?? 
I'm not saying he's the sole reason that they were losing by the amount they were losing by, but you are the best player on this team. A very vital piece on this team. You are the captain. You mean to tell me, you can't find a way to win 1 game out of 3. 1 game? Scratch all the highlights, all the stats, blah ze blah, win the game, get out of the 1st round, ONCE. You have Penny and his Magic, the ONLY team to beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. Why bring up MJ? He is the standard. If you have the standard saying that you are worth enough to be passed the torch, what is a greater compliment?? You can't get past this point and maybe it's not meant for you to get past. 

This is MY opinion. Who would you rather have? I said Penny over Tmac. Imma stand by that. No need for the back and forth.

 

[Deleted member 38182]

^Naw DC just loves a good discussion/bantar/back and forth/ask questions to no end

He is good

 

[Deleted member 38182]

^Naw DC just loves a good discussion/bantar/back and forth/ask questions to no end

He is good

 

[DCAllAfrican]

1. Time passing allows people to make themselves believe things were better than what they were. Penny was not known for his defense. It was SO long ago and I am pretty sure neither one of us were of sound mind to accurately gauge Penny's defensive skills, so I will end the who is the better defender argument right here. I am sure you don't remember the same way I don't remember. How old are you, that gives me an idea how if you were really able to determine his defensive skills and not just assuming. I do know he  wasn't known as being a good defender at all.

2. You can NOT use stats to determine who is better because they had severely different roles. But if we did base it off of stats, TMAC comes out on top. If you don't see how, just go look.

3. What people do vs. the competition in their era. We are speaking of INDIVIDUAL accomplishments, not team success. How unfair is it to compare team success of the two when the teams were no where near the same level? Penny's teams were championship contenders. TMAC's teams were barely in the playoffs. I am speaking of INDIVIDUAL success. You can not discredit what someone does because of what era they did it in. That is just an unfair point in an argument. TMAC can't help that he was born in 1979, so to punish him for it is just not the right way of doing it.

4. He was far and beyond the best player on this team. Putting a team on your back might get you through a few games during the season but the playoffs are a different ballgame man. There is nothing one man can do if his team can't keep up with him. I am not understanding why people people the best player on the team should be blamed because he doesn't have the super-human ability to channel out of body experiences out of his teammates. If his teammates don't get it done, and he CLEARLY is getting done, why are we blaming him? I can't see why people keep using that argument. "If he was really that good he would find a way to win." I mean look at the teams he was playing against, why do we think we should really be able to pull it off himself? IN the playoffs? Yet another unfair assumption.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

1. Time passing allows people to make themselves believe things were better than what they were. Penny was not known for his defense. It was SO long ago and I am pretty sure neither one of us were of sound mind to accurately gauge Penny's defensive skills, so I will end the who is the better defender argument right here. I am sure you don't remember the same way I don't remember. How old are you, that gives me an idea how if you were really able to determine his defensive skills and not just assuming. I do know he  wasn't known as being a good defender at all.

2. You can NOT use stats to determine who is better because they had severely different roles. But if we did base it off of stats, TMAC comes out on top. If you don't see how, just go look.

3. What people do vs. the competition in their era. We are speaking of INDIVIDUAL accomplishments, not team success. How unfair is it to compare team success of the two when the teams were no where near the same level? Penny's teams were championship contenders. TMAC's teams were barely in the playoffs. I am speaking of INDIVIDUAL success. You can not discredit what someone does because of what era they did it in. That is just an unfair point in an argument. TMAC can't help that he was born in 1979, so to punish him for it is just not the right way of doing it.

4. He was far and beyond the best player on this team. Putting a team on your back might get you through a few games during the season but the playoffs are a different ballgame man. There is nothing one man can do if his team can't keep up with him. I am not understanding why people people the best player on the team should be blamed because he doesn't have the super-human ability to channel out of body experiences out of his teammates. If his teammates don't get it done, and he CLEARLY is getting done, why are we blaming him? I can't see why people keep using that argument. "If he was really that good he would find a way to win." I mean look at the teams he was playing against, why do we think we should really be able to pull it off himself? IN the playoffs? Yet another unfair assumption.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by bob4rmmarketing

You mean to tell me, you can't find a way to win 1 game out of 3. 1 game? Scratch all the highlights, all the stats, blah ze blah, win the game, get out of the 1st round, ONCE.

1. I hope your ONCE isn't including his Rocket days because that is not part of the discussion. We are talking about his days in Orlando. Lettuce take a look at the teams that he was supposed to MAGICALLY will his teammates to victory over

01 vs Bucks: Going against TMAC averaged 34, 8, and 7. Going up against Ray, Big Dog, and Sam I am. But lets blame TMAC for that one.

02 vs TMAC went off for 31, 6, and 6. Again, Darrell Armstrong was his team's 2nd leading scorer. If that is happening NO team in this world should be expected to win a playoff series. But again, if TMAC was "really" a great player he would somehow MAGICALLY will this team to victory right? Unfair.

03 vs Pistons: TMAC once again showing he has to carry most of the load (which for whatever reason means he should also blamed LOL). TMAC went off for 32, 5, and 7. Godly numbers again. 2nd leading scorer averaging 14, Drew Gooden. This is the series that people claim HE should have won since he was up 3-1 but do you know that only TWO Magic players averaged double digit points in this series? I don't care what you say, you aren't winning a series with that. Up 3-1 or not. But again, lets blame the person that does the MOST on the team for the loses. Makes sense to me.

04 vs No playoffs. I guess that was his fault too right?

You are essentially asking TMAC to become a practicer of witchcraft if you think he was supposed to win ANYTHING with those teams.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by bob4rmmarketing

You mean to tell me, you can't find a way to win 1 game out of 3. 1 game? Scratch all the highlights, all the stats, blah ze blah, win the game, get out of the 1st round, ONCE.

1. I hope your ONCE isn't including his Rocket days because that is not part of the discussion. We are talking about his days in Orlando. Lettuce take a look at the teams that he was supposed to MAGICALLY will his teammates to victory over

01 vs Bucks: Going against TMAC averaged 34, 8, and 7. Going up against Ray, Big Dog, and Sam I am. But lets blame TMAC for that one.

02 vs TMAC went off for 31, 6, and 6. Again, Darrell Armstrong was his team's 2nd leading scorer. If that is happening NO team in this world should be expected to win a playoff series. But again, if TMAC was "really" a great player he would somehow MAGICALLY will this team to victory right? Unfair.

03 vs Pistons: TMAC once again showing he has to carry most of the load (which for whatever reason means he should also blamed LOL). TMAC went off for 32, 5, and 7. Godly numbers again. 2nd leading scorer averaging 14, Drew Gooden. This is the series that people claim HE should have won since he was up 3-1 but do you know that only TWO Magic players averaged double digit points in this series? I don't care what you say, you aren't winning a series with that. Up 3-1 or not. But again, lets blame the person that does the MOST on the team for the loses. Makes sense to me.

04 vs No playoffs. I guess that was his fault too right?

You are essentially asking TMAC to become a practicer of witchcraft if you think he was supposed to win ANYTHING with those teams.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

You have Penny and his Magic, the ONLY team to beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. Why bring up MJ? He is the standard. If you have the standard saying that you are worth enough to be passed the torch, what is a greater compliment?? You can't get past this point and maybe it's not meant for you to get past.

You are correct, his teams beat the Bulls but they did not beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. They beat them during the Houston Rockets runs. Did you forget that Jordan just came back mid-season and was nowhere near his championship years. So don't exaggerate points. They beat the Bulls though, I won't take that away from them. But lets not act like they beat the BULLS because they damn sure didn't beat the BULLS.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

You have Penny and his Magic, the ONLY team to beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. Why bring up MJ? He is the standard. If you have the standard saying that you are worth enough to be passed the torch, what is a greater compliment?? You can't get past this point and maybe it's not meant for you to get past.

You are correct, his teams beat the Bulls but they did not beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. They beat them during the Houston Rockets runs. Did you forget that Jordan just came back mid-season and was nowhere near his championship years. So don't exaggerate points. They beat the Bulls though, I won't take that away from them. But lets not act like they beat the BULLS because they damn sure didn't beat the BULLS.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

You have Penny and his Magic, the ONLY team to beat MJ and the Bulls
during their championship runs. Why bring up MJ? He is the standard. If
you have the standard saying that you are worth enough to be passed the
torch, what is a greater compliment?? You can't get past this point and
maybe it's not meant for you to get past.

You are correct, his teams beat the Bulls but they did not beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. They beat them during the Houston Rockets runs. Did you forget that Jordan just came back mid-season and was nowhere near his championship years. So don't exaggerate points. They beat the Bulls though, I won't take that away from them. But lets not act like they beat the BULLS because they damn sure didn't beat the BULLS.



He was rusty right when he came back, but by the time the second round kicked in, Michael Jordan was as good as he ever would've been in the summer of 95 had he not retired at all. He actually didn't play bad against the Magic that series. He averaged 31 points. From an individual point of view, he actually played better in the 95 series against the Magic than the 96 one the following year when they swept them. The reason he and the Bulls lost that series has nothing to do with him coming back, it had plenty to do with him not having a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman on his team. He doesn't get a free pass, he lost legit.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

You have Penny and his Magic, the ONLY team to beat MJ and the Bulls
during their championship runs. Why bring up MJ? He is the standard. If
you have the standard saying that you are worth enough to be passed the
torch, what is a greater compliment?? You can't get past this point and
maybe it's not meant for you to get past.

You are correct, his teams beat the Bulls but they did not beat MJ and the Bulls during their championship runs. They beat them during the Houston Rockets runs. Did you forget that Jordan just came back mid-season and was nowhere near his championship years. So don't exaggerate points. They beat the Bulls though, I won't take that away from them. But lets not act like they beat the BULLS because they damn sure didn't beat the BULLS.



He was rusty right when he came back, but by the time the second round kicked in, Michael Jordan was as good as he ever would've been in the summer of 95 had he not retired at all. He actually didn't play bad against the Magic that series. He averaged 31 points. From an individual point of view, he actually played better in the 95 series against the Magic than the 96 one the following year when they swept them. The reason he and the Bulls lost that series has nothing to do with him coming back, it had plenty to do with him not having a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman on his team. He doesn't get a free pass, he lost legit.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

The Magic did NOT beat the Bulls Championship teams is my point. For whatever reason, Jordan not being Jordan (my opinion) or no ho Grant/Rodman (which I forgot about), the Championship Bulls did NOT get beat.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

The Magic did NOT beat the Bulls Championship teams is my point. For whatever reason, Jordan not being Jordan (my opinion) or no ho Grant/Rodman (which I forgot about), the Championship Bulls did NOT get beat.

 

[Bend_The_Knee]

Originally Posted by KingJay718

Originally Posted by Born illa

A lot of nostalgic NT'ers are gonna say Penny... and a lot of purists will say McGrady...
I'll take Penny. 

 

[Bend_The_Knee]

Originally Posted by KingJay718

Originally Posted by Born illa

A lot of nostalgic NT'ers are gonna say Penny... and a lot of purists will say McGrady...
I'll take Penny. 

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by mizzoe33

Originally Posted by Im Not You

That pass at 1:39 was

unbelievable.

had to watch both when they were playing at their highest to judge fairly ... 
w/ that being said ... i'm choosing penny

@ the video ... the 1:01 mark (lebron could learn about that footwork) was classic penny finishing w/ the jump stop ...

and that pass at 1:41

i feel robbed by grant hill's ankle and penny's knees

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by mizzoe33

Originally Posted by Im Not You

That pass at 1:39 was

unbelievable.

had to watch both when they were playing at their highest to judge fairly ... 
w/ that being said ... i'm choosing penny

@ the video ... the 1:01 mark (lebron could learn about that footwork) was classic penny finishing w/ the jump stop ...

and that pass at 1:41

i feel robbed by grant hill's ankle and penny's knees