Realistically, what has the sweep done to Kobe's legacy?

[jpzx]

I don't understand how you can't judge a player by the number of championships he has given the fact that he will have 12-14 chances to grab a title or 2.

Everything's not black and white. You have to take each championship or failure to get a championship and magnify it incredibly. Things like teammates, other great teams, coaching, etc. factor into legacies and resume's.

Just because player X won 3 championships, and player Y won 2... it doesn't mean player X was better. There are so many other details to sort through to TRULY determine how great a player is or how they stand against another player.

*As for this thread, it's a little disconcerting that Kobe couldn't will his team to at least ONE win in this series. Like I said, it's a team game, but a guy who's threatening "The Greatest Player of All-Time" title shouldn't allow his team to be swept. That doesn't just involve his play on the court, but also sorting things out chemistry-wise in the locker room (which will lead to better results for the rest of the team on the court).

 

[jpzx]

I don't understand how you can't judge a player by the number of championships he has given the fact that he will have 12-14 chances to grab a title or 2.

Everything's not black and white. You have to take each championship or failure to get a championship and magnify it incredibly. Things like teammates, other great teams, coaching, etc. factor into legacies and resume's.

Just because player X won 3 championships, and player Y won 2... it doesn't mean player X was better. There are so many other details to sort through to TRULY determine how great a player is or how they stand against another player.

*As for this thread, it's a little disconcerting that Kobe couldn't will his team to at least ONE win in this series. Like I said, it's a team game, but a guy who's threatening "The Greatest Player of All-Time" title shouldn't allow his team to be swept. That doesn't just involve his play on the court, but also sorting things out chemistry-wise in the locker room (which will lead to better results for the rest of the team on the court).

 

[statis22]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Legacy?

what an overrated term...at the end of the day people only remember what you accomplished, not your failures.

I don't agree with this.

 

[statis22]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Legacy?

what an overrated term...at the end of the day people only remember what you accomplished, not your failures.

I don't agree with this.

 

[moneymike9]

Nothing.

Look at the entire body of work for Kobe, and don't compare it to anyone.

Kobe is a great player and has had a great career thus far.

 

[moneymike9]

Nothing.

Look at the entire body of work for Kobe, and don't compare it to anyone.

Kobe is a great player and has had a great career thus far.

 

[lukethejediknight]

He's the unquestioned leader of the team, if they don't step up, it's his job to pull the team through.

No it's not. Gasol's not a baby, and it's HIS job to pull his head out of his rear end.
Be your own leader.

 

[lukethejediknight]

He's the unquestioned leader of the team, if they don't step up, it's his job to pull the team through.

No it's not. Gasol's not a baby, and it's HIS job to pull his head out of his rear end.
Be your own leader.

 

[kobe8is]

Originally Posted by kvsm23vs24

Expect the lakers to come back strong next season

 

[JD617]

I'll just say this, when his teams lose, they do it in really spectacular fashion.

Some of you may think my request to be foolish.  Surely, the Los Angeles Lakers know that their season teeters on the brink tonight.  Surely, they know that anything less than desperation will see them make a quick and inauspicious exit from these playoff proceedings.  Surely, a team led by Kobe Bryant, one of the fiercest competitors in the history of the game, will make sure that, if the Lakers are to make their end, they will make that end attempting to be the legends they have built themselves up to be.
As strange as it is to conceive, history says it isn't so.  No team which has included Kobe Bryant as a member has ever gone out with a bang, unless it is in victory.  It's stunning how badly Bryant's teams have performed in the final moments of seasons in which a banner was not earned.  Check out the list:

• 1997:  Defeated in the second round in 5 games by the Utah Jazz, including Kobe's infamous last shot airballs
• 1998: Same team, even worse result.  The Jazz swept the Lakers in the second round
• 1999: Swept in the second round this time by the San Antonio Spurs
• 2000-2002: Rings
• 2003: Defeated in the second round in 6 games by the Spurs.  Game 6 was a 28 point beatdown
• 2004: Defeated in the NBA Finals in 5 games by the Detroit Pistons.  Heavily favored coming in, the Lakers lost 3 of the four games by double digits, and the one game they won required a deep three pointer by Bryant to send the game into overtime.  This was basically the first five game sweep in history.
• 2005: Missed playoffs.  For what it's worth, the Lakers also ended the season 2-19 down the stretch
• 2006: Defeated in the first round in 7 games by the Phoenix Suns.  Although their overall performance in the series was quite admirable, the Lakers lost a 3-1 series lead, and Game 7 was the infamous "Kobe gave up" game.  Whether you believe in that narrative or not, that game, in which the Lakers lost by 29, was most certainly a whimper
• 2007: The Suns dispatched the Lakers with ease in the first round, winning in 5 games
• 2008: Defeated by the Boston Celtics in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with the final game a 39 point annnihilation
• 2009-2010: More rings
• 2011: Swept by Mavs, routed in final game by 36.

And that's the list.  It really is absolutely incredible.  No Laker team that has included Kobe Bryant has ended the season with a strong, fight to the last man effort, unless that season has ended with a championship.  In all the other seasons, his teams have bowed out with tails between their legs.

 

[kobe8is]

Originally Posted by kvsm23vs24

Expect the lakers to come back strong next season

 

[JD617]

I'll just say this, when his teams lose, they do it in really spectacular fashion.

Some of you may think my request to be foolish.  Surely, the Los Angeles Lakers know that their season teeters on the brink tonight.  Surely, they know that anything less than desperation will see them make a quick and inauspicious exit from these playoff proceedings.  Surely, a team led by Kobe Bryant, one of the fiercest competitors in the history of the game, will make sure that, if the Lakers are to make their end, they will make that end attempting to be the legends they have built themselves up to be.
As strange as it is to conceive, history says it isn't so.  No team which has included Kobe Bryant as a member has ever gone out with a bang, unless it is in victory.  It's stunning how badly Bryant's teams have performed in the final moments of seasons in which a banner was not earned.  Check out the list:

• 1997:  Defeated in the second round in 5 games by the Utah Jazz, including Kobe's infamous last shot airballs
• 1998: Same team, even worse result.  The Jazz swept the Lakers in the second round
• 1999: Swept in the second round this time by the San Antonio Spurs
• 2000-2002: Rings
• 2003: Defeated in the second round in 6 games by the Spurs.  Game 6 was a 28 point beatdown
• 2004: Defeated in the NBA Finals in 5 games by the Detroit Pistons.  Heavily favored coming in, the Lakers lost 3 of the four games by double digits, and the one game they won required a deep three pointer by Bryant to send the game into overtime.  This was basically the first five game sweep in history.
• 2005: Missed playoffs.  For what it's worth, the Lakers also ended the season 2-19 down the stretch
• 2006: Defeated in the first round in 7 games by the Phoenix Suns.  Although their overall performance in the series was quite admirable, the Lakers lost a 3-1 series lead, and Game 7 was the infamous "Kobe gave up" game.  Whether you believe in that narrative or not, that game, in which the Lakers lost by 29, was most certainly a whimper
• 2007: The Suns dispatched the Lakers with ease in the first round, winning in 5 games
• 2008: Defeated by the Boston Celtics in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with the final game a 39 point annnihilation
• 2009-2010: More rings
• 2011: Swept by Mavs, routed in final game by 36.

And that's the list.  It really is absolutely incredible.  No Laker team that has included Kobe Bryant has ended the season with a strong, fight to the last man effort, unless that season has ended with a championship.  In all the other seasons, his teams have bowed out with tails between their legs.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

This is hilarious.

He's the unquestioned leader of the team, if they don't step up, it's his job to pull the team through.

He didn't do that and he's consistently been blown out in series-ending losses. It's an alarming trend for a player considered one of the all-time greats.

His legacy takes an enormous hit.

Did Magic losing 4 Finals hurt his legacy of being one of the all-time greats?

A player or leader can do all the motivating and rallying of the troops, but if a grown %$% man doesn't have the mindset to be there along with him (aka Pau this series) and the rest of the locker room is fractured for whatever reason, then it's all for naught.

His legacy is still being written and this really doesn't change anything. He's still a top 10 player ever.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

This is hilarious.

He's the unquestioned leader of the team, if they don't step up, it's his job to pull the team through.

He didn't do that and he's consistently been blown out in series-ending losses. It's an alarming trend for a player considered one of the all-time greats.

His legacy takes an enormous hit.

Did Magic losing 4 Finals hurt his legacy of being one of the all-time greats?

A player or leader can do all the motivating and rallying of the troops, but if a grown %$% man doesn't have the mindset to be there along with him (aka Pau this series) and the rest of the locker room is fractured for whatever reason, then it's all for naught.

His legacy is still being written and this really doesn't change anything. He's still a top 10 player ever.

 

[airjuhst]

nobody remembers when Jordan was swept 2 years in a row by the Celtics?

 

[airjuhst]

nobody remembers when Jordan was swept 2 years in a row by the Celtics?

 

[kobe8is]

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

This is hilarious.

He's the unquestioned leader of the team, if they don't step up, it's his job to pull the team through.

He didn't do that and he's consistently been blown out in series-ending losses. It's an alarming trend for a player considered one of the all-time greats.

His legacy takes an enormous hit.

 

 

[kobe8is]

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

This is hilarious.

He's the unquestioned leader of the team, if they don't step up, it's his job to pull the team through.

He didn't do that and he's consistently been blown out in series-ending losses. It's an alarming trend for a player considered one of the all-time greats.

His legacy takes an enormous hit.

 

 

[S4L]

Black eye...

 

[WhatisLove]

I don't recall people blaming Jordan's teammates when they had down games/seasons (see Pippen being injured/non-effective at times, etc.).

It was all on Mike. I don't see why Kobe should be treated any differently, especially when he's had considerably greater talent around him all of these times.

But no, this really doesn't hurt his "legacy" that much. Just a reality check. And a good one, at that.

 

[WhatisLove]

I don't recall people blaming Jordan's teammates when they had down games/seasons (see Pippen being injured/non-effective at times, etc.).

It was all on Mike. I don't see why Kobe should be treated any differently, especially when he's had considerably greater talent around him all of these times.

But no, this really doesn't hurt his "legacy" that much. Just a reality check. And a good one, at that.

 

[S4L]

Black eye...

 

[lukethejediknight]

A player or leader can do all the motivating and rallying of the troops, but if a grown %$% man doesn't have the mindset to be there along with him (aka Pau this series) and the rest of the locker room is fractured for whatever reason, then it's all for naught.

Correct.
Now, I should also point out that by saying this, you sound like an LBJ fan from '10

I don't recall people blaming Jordan's teammates when they had down games/seasons (see Pippen being injured/non-effective at times, etc.).

It was all on Mike.

It was flawed thinking then, and it's flawed thinking now.

 

[lukethejediknight]

A player or leader can do all the motivating and rallying of the troops, but if a grown %$% man doesn't have the mindset to be there along with him (aka Pau this series) and the rest of the locker room is fractured for whatever reason, then it's all for naught.

Correct.
Now, I should also point out that by saying this, you sound like an LBJ fan from '10

I don't recall people blaming Jordan's teammates when they had down games/seasons (see Pippen being injured/non-effective at times, etc.).

It was all on Mike.

It was flawed thinking then, and it's flawed thinking now.

 

[Truth]

Nothing. 2nd Best SG of all time. Top 10 player of all time (possibly Top 5 when his career is over)