***Official Political Discussion Thread***

This country is so trash :lol:



This is so much worst than the first time too. Like he’s getting love-love out here and it’s not just from his regular rabid fans. This guy really broke politics. There are going to be AP courses on Trump’s presidency for years to come.

Jesus Christ. This country :smh: :lol:
 
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uhm wut? it's a swing district that Trump won by 1 point right?

Why would taking a less moderate position give her better chance in a Trump +1 district?
It's moving more blue with people getting priced out of portland. It used to be safe republican until 2020, so a Trump +1 is still danger for the GOP, but MGP might **** around and either keep her voters home or get primaried.
 
This country is so trash :lol:



This is so much worst than the first time too. Like he’s getting love-love out here and it’s not just from his regular rabid fans. This guy really broke politics. There are going to be AP courses on Trump’s presidency for years to come.

Jesus Christ. This country :smh: :lol:

disgusting behavior
i cringed so hard bruh spineless ppl
 
The thing is, I have no problem with Republicans being “tough on crime” and “law and order” on paper. Too many Americans of all backgrounds need severe behavioral modification.

BUT “tough on crime” needs to be applied fairly. You can’t beat up subway gate hoppers for cheating the city out of $2 while giving people like Trump and Elon the equivalent of verbal warnings for 100000x worse offenses. You can’t preach about “law and order” when Trump supporters violently attack politicians and peaceful protestors. You can’t bash Chicago 24/7 and talk about sending in troops there, while Republican states are allowed to have the highest gun violence per capita.

Well that's why "tough on crime" doesn't work because it is never applied correctly.
 
Well that's why "tough on crime" doesn't work because it is never applied correctly.

Of course. It’s the same with all of the Republican tag lines. Pro life, freedom from government overreach, tough on crime, all sound good until you don’t provide adequate and affordable healthcare for most of the population, you create laws that take away the rights of women/minorities, you let your “donors” legally get away with tax evasion/embezzlement while encouraging police to brutalize people for petty crimes…
 
It's moving more blue with people getting priced out of portland. It used to be safe republican until 2020, so a Trump +1 is still danger for the GOP, but MGP might **** around and either keep her voters home or get primaried.

the problem is highly ideological people who would be informed enough to be mad about the various moderate positions she taken,

are also LEAST LIKELY to stay home.


even if its moving left, even if becomes let's say +2 D I really doubt thats enough for anyone to look at MGP as a strong primary opportunity.
 
He moderated on entitlement cuts in 2016, he moderates by being big on protectionism and tariffs against the wishes of the chamber of commerce republicans, he targeted working class latino voters in Nevada wit the no tax on tips. He said he would not sign a nation wide abortion ban against the wishes of the anti abortion lobby.
The next time you’re about to feign incredulity when accused of contrarianism, maybe pause and reflect on the time you tried to make the argument that, “well ackshyually, Donald Trump was a moderate.”

Seriously, these are your examples? A Republican pledging to cut taxes? Moving to the right of John McCain to try and repeal the ACA with no replacement plan? Self-destructive nationalism? Taking credit for state-level abortion bans that are abhorrent to two-thirds of the country?

Your idea of a moderate is someone who got called a “race-baiting xenophobic bigot” by Lindsay Graham? And this is what you want Democrats to emulate?

Trump had the most extreme, far-right administration in our lifetimes. In some ways, his 2024 campaign has gone even further: He’s promised the largest mass deportation operation in the nation’s history. He vowed to expand the federal death penalty. He told wild lies about schools performing gender reassignment surgeries and Haitian immigrants eating pets. Have you seen Project 2025?

Oh, but he spoke at a church in Detroit (which he referred to as “the hood”) in front of this crowd:



That’s your evidence?

Weren’t you the one saying that Harris over-performed by turning a sure loss into a coin flip?


You argue that Democrats have become “too extreme,” but when it comes to economic policies you want them to go further left. You only want them to move right on social issues and pretend this is some sober, high level analysis that has nothing to do with your own longstanding personal preferences. Does anyone here buy that? I’m not seeing it.

There’s no reason to believe that capitulation would accomplish anything positive. Harris ran to the right on immigration and still got smeared for supporting “open borders.”


You want all these things to be true at the same time:
  • Bigotry isn’t a deal-breaker for swing voters.
  • Anti-bigotry IS a deal-breaker for swing voters.
  • And further diluting Democrats’ already compromised positions on social issues is going to somehow outflank demagoguery for those same voters who are unbothered by racism but bothered by anti-racism.
Good luck with that.


You gotta be f'n kiddin me



Apparently we’re supposed to believe that this is a good thing and it’s high time universities stopped engaging in “identity politics.”

We mustn’t push back on this, lest we anger the moderates!

Learned helplessness.
 
The next time you’re about to feign incredulity when accused of contrarianism, maybe pause and reflect on the time you tried to make the argument that, “well ackshyually, Donald Trump was a moderate.”

Seriously, these are your examples? A Republican pledging to cut taxes? Moving to the right of John McCain to try and repeal the ACA with no replacement plan? Self-destructive nationalism? Taking credit for state-level abortion bans that are abhorrent to two-thirds of the country?

stop with the snark, obviously im not saying donald trump is "actually a moderate". I said he took public positions to try to APPEAR moderate.

obviously he's lying, Donald Trump is a giant liar. But the point is donald trump didn't run a campaign on PURE base mobilization which was your claim. He did do strategic moderation.


Your idea of a moderate is someone who got called a “race-baiting xenophobic bigot” by Lindsay Graham? And this is what you want Democrats to emulate?

Trump had the most extreme, far-right administration in our lifetimes. In some ways, his 2024 campaign has gone even further: He’s promised the largest mass deportation operation in the nation’s history. He vowed to expand the federal death penalty. He told wild lies about schools performing gender reassignment surgeries and Haitian immigrants eating pets. Have you seen Project 2025?

Oh, but he spoke at a church in Detroit (which he referred to as “the hood”) in front of this crowd:



That’s your evidence?

Weren’t you the one saying that Harris over-performed by turning a sure loss into a coin flip?


Turn down the sanctimony and just try to have a good faith interpretation of what I said.

Obviously I don't think the democrats should be like Donald Trump, my claim was Donald Trump did strategically moderate, and he did.

You can say he was lying. (I agree)
You can say he said a bunch of racists stuff (I agree)
he's lying about not knowing what project 2025 is (I agree)
you can say he's not a moderate (i agree)

none of this refutues my point; in order to appear moderate you have to take moderate positions. When asked about Project 2025 he lies and says he doesn't know what it is. that's politics.



You argue that Democrats have become “too extreme,” but when it comes to economic policies you want them to go further left. You only want them to move right on social issues and pretend this is some sober, high level analysis that has nothing to do with your own longstanding personal preferences. Does anyone here buy that? I’m not seeing it.
not they need to also move right on some public policy that would go against my personal wishes, for example; immigration, the border and probably some climate change policies.


There’s no reason to believe that capitulation would accomplish anything positive. Harris ran to the right on immigration and still got smeared for supporting “open borders.”
that was good, her campaign cut the margins in swing states. she lost by much bigger margins in the states she didn't campaign in.

unfortunately Biden delt her a terrible hand. I don't think you can look at this and say moderation "didn't accomplish anything" it did help.

but she moderated mostly in terms of optics, and it wasn't enough.


You want all these things to be true at the same time:
  • Bigotry isn’t a deal-breaker for swing voters.
  • Anti-bigotry IS a deal-breaker for swing voters.
  • And further diluting Democrats’ already compromised positions on social issues is going to somehow outflank demagoguery for those same voters who are unbothered by racism but bothered by anti-racism.


This is the problem, you frame all progressive cultural policy as "anti bigotry". when rather its the idiosyncratic interests of activists groups that claim to represent minorities.

anti bigotry is popular. niche social ideas are not. You can be against bigotry against latino people without thinking you need to de gender the spanish language.

these things aren't mutually exclusive.

you can be for transgender inclusion in society; popular
against hugely unpopular fringe issues like trans women in sports; unpopular


Apparently we’re supposed to believe that this is a good thing and it’s high time universities stopped engaging in “identity politics.”

We mustn’t push back on this, lest we anger the moderates!

Learned helplessness.
every year the dems have moved to the left, and every year they lose more working class and minority voters.

you either need pursued these people that they are wrong and you have to moderate. but no one should pretend that there isn't a cost to cultural radicalism.

cultural radicalism can be good, but it's never cost free.
 

Speaking of Hasan Piker (the guy who tweeted this), he's singlehandedly destroying the earnings of many smaller Twitch streamers because his rabid anti-semitism and terrorist propaganda is causing advertisers to flee. I have a lot of connections with various Twitch streamers and AdSense revenue has dropped well over 50% the last week or so despite nearing the prime AdSense period of the year.

Hasan Piker is the de facto face of politics on Twitch. All the relatively large (but tiny in comparison) other politics streamers there are leeching onto him, struggle to reach 1k viewers and they all go offline as soon as Hasan starts his stream. All are of course moderators in his chat as well. Several of them are currently banned for offering bounties to assassinate critics of Hasan, proclaiming they hope every US soldier suffers PTSD and never gets healthcare, hosting a tier list that was basically a dogwhistle for arab = good & jew = bad, ...
One of the more pathetic leeches (MikeFromPA, also known as CentralCommittee on Twitch) got a 2 day ban earlier last week for offering a 100k bounty for a hit against another influencer criticizing Hasan.

If you want to get a gist of what the face of leftist politics looks like on Twitch, this video provides a good summary. I don't necessarily agree with every single point but it quickly becomes obvious why this being the face of leftist influencers is cancerous to not only the leftist movement but also to Twitch as a whole.
He flagrantly violates the ToS time after time but Twitch's CEO has publicly stated Hasan is his favorite streamer so it's not hard to see why gets to break every rule in the book regarding hate speech.

It's gotten to the point where his cancerous caping for terrorism and anti-semitic dogwhistling is actually damaging the income of any Twitch streamer receiving AdSense earnings.
 
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stop with the snark, obviously im not saying donald trump is "actually a moderate". I said he took public positions to try to APPEAR moderate.

obviously he's lying, Donald Trump is a giant liar. But the point is donald trump didn't run a campaign on PURE base mobilization which was your claim. He did do strategic moderation.




Turn down the sanctimony and just try to have a good faith interpretation of what I said.

Obviously I don't think the democrats should be like Donald Trump, my claim was Donald Trump did strategically moderate, and he did.

You can say he was lying. (I agree)
You can say he said a bunch of racists stuff (I agree)
he's lying about not knowing what project 2025 is (I agree)
you can say he's not a moderate (i agree)

none of this refutues my point; in order to appear moderate you have to take moderate positions. When asked about Project 2025 he lies and says he doesn't know what it is. that's politics.




not they need to also move right on some public policy that would go against my personal wishes, for example; immigration, the border and probably some climate change policies.



that was good, her campaign cut the margins in swing states. she lost by much bigger margins in the states she didn't campaign in.

unfortunately Biden delt her a terrible hand. I don't think you can look at this and say moderation "didn't accomplish anything" it did help.

but she moderated mostly in terms of optics, and it wasn't enough.





This is the problem, you frame all progressive cultural policy as "anti bigotry". when rather its the idiosyncratic interests of activists groups that claim to represent minorities.

anti bigotry is popular. niche social ideas are not. You can be against bigotry against latino people without thinking you need to de gender the spanish language.

these things aren't mutually exclusive.

you can be for transgender inclusion in society; popular
against hugely unpopular fringe issues like trans women in sports; unpopular



every year the dems have moved to the left, and every year they lose more working class and minority voters.

you either need pursued these people that they are wrong and you have to moderate. but no one should pretend that there isn't a cost to cultural radicalism.

cultural radicalism can be good, but it's never cost free.

When’s the last time Democrats failed to triangulate after the convention? Biden moved left and won a record number of votes. Harris moved right and lost.

Harris moderated FAR more than Donald Trump. I don’t think even you are so contrary as to try and argue otherwise.

What was her most radical position? No public option. No suspension of arms sales to Israel. No $15/hour minimum wage. The rootinest, tootinest, shootinest armed forces in the history of human civilization. A bipartisan border deal. Stop me when I get to the pansexual socialism.


What even is your theory here:

Voters care more about the “threat” of trans kids enjoying afterschool activities with their classmates than they do about the economy….. so we should focus exclusively on the economy?

Unless you’re planning to run to the right of Republicans on this, how exactly does that prevent them from claiming that Democrats put litter boxes in elementary school lavatories for furries and Joe Rogan’s cousin saw one of the furries and the furry looked at him?

There’s nothing substantive here.

Republicans ran a more extreme candidate who moderated less.


If you’re really that bored, go back to arguing about Drake “dominating the culture” or Ozempic abuse or whatever.
 
Apparently every president (former or current) is actually above the law no matter what anyone says
Just adding some extra context:

The current Supreme Court position is that a president is immune from prosecution if the actions were part of an "official act", which is about as broad as it gets. Basically anything that falls under the president's duties or powers can include criminal activity and the ruling isn't very clear on how related the crime must be to said official act.
Looking back at prior presidencies, I think this would almost certainly immunize Ronald Reagan from his role in Iran/Contra. Something like Nixon's attempts to obstruct the Watergate investigations as president would be covered as well if I understand the ruling correctly.

A simple hypothetical would be to corruptly use the pardon power for the purpose of obstructing an investigation. Granting a pardon is a clear "official act", so even if done with a criminal intent to obstruct justice it would be immunized.
What's not really clear to me is if shooting someone during the granting of a pardon would also be immunized.

Obviously I'm no lawyer but I'd like to think I've gotten a decent understanding throughout the last 8 years. A while back I finished "The Shadow Docket", written by law professor Steve Vladeck.
If anyone here likes US law, I'd highly recommend it. Relatively speaking, I found it surprisingly easy to follow along even as a foreigner.
https://www.amazon.com.be/-/en/Stephen-Vladeck/dp/1541602633
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Apparently every president (former or current) is actually above the law no matter what anyone says

The American government is a crime syndicate. Truthfully, You can call it a narco state with nice outsides and good public relations.

When you really step back, what are “laws” really?

Crime PAYS. Especially if you’re a white man in America. With power and wealth. You untouchable, mostly
 
When’s the last time Democrats failed to triangulate after the convention? Biden moved left and won a record number of votes. Harris moved right and lost.

Biden should make people bearish on left wings policies ability to overcome right wing populism.

Biden moved to the left, and barely won, even tho the entire country totally disapproved of Trumps handling of the most salient issue at the time, COVID.

He has ran the most left wing administration of all time, hired Bernie Sanders and liz warren policy people, was the most pro union, had an incredibly aggressive antitrust, did the child tax credit, spent tons of money ect ect.

and americans hated it. You can say this is all inflation, but the Democratic party has been moving to the left on all this stuff post clinton. and they keep losing more and more working class support.


Harris moderated FAR more than Donald Trump. I don’t think even you are so contrary as to try and argue otherwise.

What was her most radical position? No public option. No suspension of arms sales to Israel. No $15/hour minimum wage. The rootinest, tootinest, shootinest armed forces in the history of human civilization. A bipartisan border deal. Stop me when I get to the pansexual socialism.

Harris moderated mostly in terms of optics. she campaigned with Liz Cheney, she talked about patriotism, about the "lethal fighting force" ect but she mostly avoided taking a position, and starting factional fights with the left,

and offered no explanation for why she suddenly stopped talking about all the stuff she ran on in 2019.
No one had any reason to believe her new stances were the real stances.

Trump at least took a position on a national abortion ban, he took a position on project 2025, and over the course of his 3 campaigns has taken way more positions than Harris that are in active opposition to broad parts of the republican party.

Harris imo split the baby in the worst way, not enough moderation to help and too much moderation that it still pissed off left wing people.

What even is your theory here:

Voters care more about the “threat” of trans kids enjoying afterschool activities with their classmates than they do about the economy….. so we should focus exclusively on the economy?

Unless you’re planning to run to the right of Republicans on this, how exactly does that prevent them from claiming that Democrats put litter boxes in elementary school lavatories for furries and Joe Rogan’s cousin saw one of the furries and the furry looked at him?

There’s nothing substantive here.

Republicans ran a more extreme candidate who moderated less.


If you’re really that bored, go back to arguing about Drake “dominating the culture” or Ozempic abuse or whatever.

The theory is simple;

Democrats have a brand problem, the perception in many places is they are out of touch cultural elites who are more fixated on niche cultural ideas than the nuts and bolts of governing.

In order to combat this they need to do WHAT EVERY MODERATE POLITICIAN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HAS DONE.

Take strategic moderate positions on salient topics against the extreme wings of their party.

you don't need to move to the right on EVERYTHING and You don't need to move to the right of republicans. you need to moderate on SOME THINGS. and you just need to express mainstream american values, and **** on extremists in your party when they get out of bounds.

Obama said that he was against gay marriage and only was in favour of civil unions in '08 in order to signal cultural moderation.

Obama did a bunch of deficit hawk stuff rhetoric and did Simpson–Bowles commision to singal seriousness on combating inflation.

this is all normal politics that for some reason the democratic party has forgotten.



What you can't do, is just campaign with Liz Cheney, say you own a glock, and take no position on all the far left stuff you supported in 2019. that's clearly not enough.
 
So if a candidate offers you the YIMBY policy platform of your dreams, but they also think it’s okay for trans kids to take part in recreational youth sports, are you voting against them?


Is this where we are?

Democrats are not the only ones who practice identity politics. Republicans are running on a White Christian Nationalist platform for crying out loud.

The fictional “War on Christmas” and religious freedom to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people are identity politics.
Eliminating affirmative action is identity politics.
Mass deportations and Muslim immigration bans are identity politics.
Abortion bans are identity politics.

The Republican platform is all about identity politics to preserve the preferential status of dominant groups.

If you’re saying that these moderate voters acted in spite of all this (along with the many glaring character issues), not because of it, then you’re actually making the argument it was “the economy, stupid” and not some backlash to Democrats going “extreme” on social issues without ever pointing to any actual policies.

You can say this is all inflation, but the Democratic party has been moving to the left on all this stuff post clinton. and they keep losing more and more working class support.

Where, specifically, did Harris move drastically left of Biden’s 2020 platform? Vibes?

He has ran the most left wing administration of all time, Bernie Sanders and liz warren policy people, was the most pro union, had an incredibly aggressive antitrust, did the child tax credit, spent tons of money ect ect.

and americans hated it.
The corollary of this is that Trump ran the most right wing administration of all time from 2016-2020 and Americans hated it.

And these are the “radical” leftist Biden policies you think everyone hates? The child tax credit? Going after companies that engage in anticompetitive behavior? The infrastructure projects that even Republicans tried to take credit for?

And the evidence for this is, what? I assume you’ve spent the five minutes to search issue polling, despite being skeptical of issue polling, indicating that children do, in fact, yearn for the mines.

I mean, otherwise your argument is “vibes” and your evidence is “vibes.”

You have a theory on what voters in another country like.
Okay.
 
This guy really broke politics.
He didn't.

He's just doing what every demagogue has done since popular support became a factor in getting political power.

Americans who ARE freaking out (with reason, I should say) are people who know what his political vision looks like in practice. After all, many of those folks supported similar regimes in South America, Africa, and Asia, as long as they lined up with the cold war era capitalist bloc.

The chickens have come home to roost.
 
So if a candidate offers you the YIMBY policy platform of your dreams, but they also think it’s okay for trans kids to take part in recreational youth sports, are you voting against them?


Is this where we are?

no, im a highly ideological person, i would vote for just about anyone if they supported the yimby policy of my dreams.

im not talking about winning people like me, im talking about less informed, less ideological swing voters who are cross pressured on a whole host of issues.

Democrats are not the only ones who practice identity politics. Republicans are running on a White Christian Nationalist platform for crying out loud.

just for a moment try to escape from your addiction to sanctimony and stop making up fake arguments to get mad at.

i didn't say they were the only ones who practice identity politics. I said some of their identity politics is unpopular and losing voters from the identities they claim to represent.

again for example, freedom from discrimination = popular.
degendering the spanish language = unpopular.

Republicans are also capable of practicing unpopular and unhelpful identity politics, it just tends to hurt them less because of the geographic bias of the senate and EC.

The fictional “War on Christmas” and religious freedom to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people are identity politics.
yes these things are unpopular hence why the republican party no longer explicitly runs on repealing gay marriage, they hide the ball and make (imo fake) appeals to moderation on the subject.

Eliminating affirmative action is identity politics.
Mass deportations and Muslim immigration bans are identity politics.
Abortion bans are identity politics.
aside from affirmative action (which is unpopular with both black and white people)
the other stuff Trump tries to lie and obfuscate. He told people he wouldn't sign a national ban. He said he's going to "deport criminals" unfortunately a large number of voters believe him.

according to your logic, Donald Trump doesn't need to lie about these things, run on strict abortion bans, getting rid of gay marriage, and reporting everyone and win.

that's obviously not true. hence all the lying.

The corollary of this is that Trump ran the most right wing administration of all time from 2016-2020 and Americans hated it.

yes they hated him because Trump lies about moderation were exposed as lies, and he ran an extremely right wing administration. if trump does the abortion ban, and does the deportation camps and the tariffs.

he will be unpopular again, none of this means the american people want socialism or whatever is even further left of biden.

And these are the “radical” leftist Biden policies you think everyone hates? The child tax credit? Going after companies that engage in anticompetitive behavior? The infrastructure projects that even Republicans tried to take credit for?

And the evidence for this is, what? I assume you’ve spent the five minutes to search issue polling, despite being skeptical of issue polling, indicating that children do, in fact, yearn for the mines.

I mean we can look at Bidens approval, and the right track wrong track numbers. they got no polling bump from the child tax credit, no one cared when it was expiring. There's evidence the cultural stuff is hurting them with latino voters. and with working class voters.

These are good policies that I support, but clearly aren't enough to stop right wing populism when your party is being painted as culturally out of touch.


clearly something needs to change, im skeptical the conclusion is stay the course, or move further left.
 
Obviously I don't think the democrats should be like Donald Trump, my claim was Donald Trump did strategically moderate, and he did.

You can say he was lying. (I agree)
You can say he said a bunch of racists stuff (I agree)
he's lying about not knowing what project 2025 is (I agree)
you can say he's not a moderate (i agree)

none of this refutues my point; in order to appear moderate you have to take moderate positions. When asked about Project 2025 he lies and says he doesn't know what it is. that's politics.
Strategic moderation just doesn't work with Democrats.

Harris got punished by a section of her base for getting too close to Liz Cheney.

Never mind that she threw away her career for preserving democracy. That was betrayal for a lot of folks, even though Harris' platform didn't change.

Democrat politicians rely on demographic groups that see any kind of compromise as political repellant. Move to the right? Lose the Left because you're "genocidal/a war hawk/a puppet of corporate masters/etc...". Move to the left? Lose moderates "who don't see color/gender/etc..." The bickering within the Democratic base is real, and even the prospect of winning control of government is not enough to force them to put their differences aside for an election.

The time to learn electoral consequences can't be wished away has come. I don't see another way to set the American electorate straight other than going through the misery Donald Trump will impose on the country.
 
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