OFFICIAL NFL Discussion Thread: 2015-16 Season - Congrats to the Denver Broncos and their fans! SB 5

[IATT]

At what point does the 1st the packers gave up to get favre come up?





And dalton was taken at the very top of the 2nd round (35th pick)


Also, the other picks traded for Palmer along the way, do they count?

 

[CP1708]

Man you know what you're doing & I know what you're doing, that why I'm not gonna bite the bait. (even though I probably want to)

That's why I say you know better.

I'm sayin what I always say, what I believe.

I don't buy the "need" for top picks at QB. Goff-Wentz are not better football players than Ramsey, Elliott, Bosa, Tunsil, etc. Teams are stupid for giving up multiple picks in multiple years to take lesser players when there is miles of proof it's not required.

People choose to ignore it. They believe QB is everything. I feel sorry for that. I really do.

Coaching, GM, 52 other players > 1 damn player.

Call me crazy for believing that.

 

[IATT]

I'm sayin what I always say, what I believe.

I don't buy the "need" for top picks at QB. Goff-Wentz are not better football players than Ramsey, Elliott, Bosa, Tunsil, etc. Teams are stupid for giving up multiple picks in multiple years to take lesser players when there is miles of proof it's not required.

People choose to ignore it. They believe QB is everything. I feel sorry for that. I really do.

Coaching, GM, 52 other players > 1 damn player.

Call me crazy for believing that.

Ummmmm the majority of the Eagles starters are already set going into the season

Elliot or Ramsey (at CB) would probably be the only immediate starters for the Eagles.. Unless Tunsil was going to play guard year 1

Lane Johnson was taken 4th overall to eventually replace peters when he left

And if you feel this strongly about QBs, I'd love to hear your views on RBs since you named Elliot above

 

[CP1708]

At what point does the 1st the packers gave up to get favre come up?





And dalton was taken at the very top of the 2nd round (35th pick)


Also, the other picks traded for Palmer along the way, do they count?

I'm honestly lost what you're lookin for.

Favre was 2nd round, same as Brees.

Ok, 19th pick was traded, and? What is your point? I've pointed out multiple top 2-3-5 picks at QB that failed, and tons of late 1's (Rodgers-Marino) 2's (Favre-Brees), 3's (Joe-Russ) and Brady, Romo, Warner types you can get late in draft or even after.

So what are you wanting with Favre dealt for 19? That's not a top 5 draft pick example.

Trading up for #1-#2-#3 etc to draft lesser football players is bad business. Period. If you disagree and feel Wentz is the 2nd best player in the draft, then hey. I don't see the point with all these other examples.

If Philly stayed at 13 and took Paxton Lynch and kept the rest of their picks, they really worse off?

Washington gave up all those picks for RG3, Cousins is their guy now. Rd 4. Think Cousins could use some of those extra picks?

Hell, I had no faith in Tenn building around Mariota. Now? They got a lot of ammo to build around him. Still gotta draft and coach well, but they got bullets to use for sure.

 

[IATT]

Eagles tried the 2nd round experiment with Kevin kolb (very top of the 2nd).. Or you only going focus on the success stories like there haven't been failures too

Matt Barkley very top of the 4th

Nick foles in the 3rd

Names can be named all over the place good and bad.. As much as you claim to follow the draft, you should know this



Remember aj freeley, was drafted in the 5th.. Dolphins traded a 2nd

Hell we even got a 2nd and DRC from the cards for kolb and if not for the lockout we could have gotten Patrick Paterson for him

 

[CP1708]

I'm sayin what I always say, what I believe.

I don't buy the "need" for top picks at QB. Goff-Wentz are not better football players than Ramsey, Elliott, Bosa, Tunsil, etc. Teams are stupid for giving up multiple picks in multiple years to take lesser players when there is miles of proof it's not required.

People choose to ignore it. They believe QB is everything. I feel sorry for that. I really do.

Coaching, GM, 52 other players > 1 damn player.

Call me crazy for believing that.

Ummmmm the majority of the Eagles starters are already set going into the season

Elliot or Ramsey (at CB) would probably be the only immediate starters for the Eagles.. Unless Tunsil was going to play guard year 1

Lane Johnson was taken 4th overall to eventually replace peters when he left

And if you feel this strongly about QBs, I'd love to hear your views on RBs since you named Elliot above

Good example. RB. Everyone knows you can get a RB "anywhere"

People lose their **** when I say exact same about QB.

Elliott is great, but I def would prefer to grab one later, cheaper, since shelf life is so dangerous. AP, Gurley are rare, absolutely, but LeVeon, Charles, Arian Foster, Shady all equally effective at lower costs.

I see it very similar.

If you stack your board 1-250, and a RB is #10, better than the other 240, ok. But don't take him #1, or 4 or whatever.

I know not all boards are the same, some team needs come into account, but I'm sorry, Goff and Wentz were not the 2 best players in college football. And not only do teams draft them, they give up multiple years worth of picks to do it.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Draft picks in general aren't a sure bet though.

Teams that draft well can acquire good players in any round and teams that don't can have a ton of picks and do nothing.

this is why you don't give away picks all willy nilly though. you need multiple picks to hit on a portion of them. give em away and lower your the number you hit on

Quarterbacks have a higher positional value than any other position in football though.

A top borderline probowl 7-12 quarterback is worth more to a football team than 3 or 4 borderline probowl position players.

Joe Thomas is the best left tackle in football

Joe Haden is borderline elite

Alex Mack was a top 3 Center.

The Cleveland Browns where still a dumpster fire.

Ok, and the other CB opposite Haden?

The other 3 spots on the OL?

Any good WR's? RB? How bout LBers? Safeties? DLine?

If the Browns gave me Joe Thomas, Haden and Mack, and I gave them Aaron Rodgers in his prime, are they good now?

Peyton Manning in Denver wins the Super Bowl.
Peyton Manning in Cleveland does, what?

He's the same QB either way, so naturally he wins the SB for the Browns this year, right?

You are a Lions fan, how aren't you seeing this? It's so easy to grasp.

Dalton 3rd round, team wins 10+ a year.
Russ 3rd round, team wins 10+ a year.
Brady 6th round, team wins 10+ a year.
Rodgers 24th, team wins 10+ a year.

Stafford #1, team?
Cam #1, SB this year, he won 5 games last year.

I mean.....?

Bridgewater won your division. Late 1.

Favre tortured you for years, 2nd round.

Bears went to a Super Bowl with Rex Grossman and Jim McMahon.

Why on Earth would you fall for the QB hype? I truly don't understand.

The 2013 Cleveland Browns literally had solid to borderline pro bowl players at EVERY POSITION you just listed.

And dumpster fire.

Don't bring up Dalton, Bridgewater or Grossman because remember if you don't win it all it doesn't matter if you win any games. Be consistent with your absolutism and not just when it serves your arguemnt.

Only Super Bowl champions.

Only SB champions, so you bring up the 2013 Browns?

Do you want me to only do SB champs? Cuz we can do that just fine. How far back you wanna go?

This year Peyton?
Brady?
Russ?
Flacco?
Rodgers?
Eli x 2?
Ben x 2?
Brees?
Peyton (There's one for ya)
Brady a few times
Brad Johnson?
Dilfer?

Still havin fun?

Warner
Old Peyton Elway x 2
Favre
Steve Young
Aikman x 3. (There's one for ya)
Rypien
Hostetler
Doug Williams
Montana x 4
McMahon
Phil Simms

So how we doin thru 30+ Super Bowls?

3 Aikman's with maybe the deepest team ever assembled.
2 Elways and no Terrell Davis.
1 Peyton after being benched
1 real Peyton
2 Eli's, I'll pretend his defense wasn't a thing.

But hey, 2013 Browns or somethin.

1/3 of all Super Bowls have been won by #1 picks.

54% of Super Bowls have been won by 1st round quarterbacks.

That's isn't arguable.

Its a statistical fact.

 

[CP1708]

Eagles tried the 2nd round experiment with Kevin kolb (very top of the 2nd).. Or you only going focus on the success stories like there haven't been failures too

Matt Barkley very top of the 4th

Nick foles in the 3rd

Names can be named all over the place good and bad.. As much as you claim to follow the draft, you should know this



Remember aj freeley, was drafted in the 5th.. Dolphins traded a 2nd

Hell we even got a 2nd and DRC from the cards for kolb and if not for the lockout we could have gotten Patrick Paterson for him

You givin up 6 picks for that 4th round pick for Barkley?

Of course their are failures, always will be. Could argue that for every position on the field.

You givin up 6 picks for a LT? A Safety?

Teams are throwing money and resources every year at QB rather than just growing them organically.

I'd build up an OLine, get a nice RB duo, get a decent WR group, try to build on my defense, and just keep using a 4th on QB, or sign a FA and coach them up, with real talent around them.

I just wouldn't reach for one.

Cincy has been pretty good lately in that regard. BPA every pick, let Dalton grow with the rest, coach them all up together. Just fix the knuckleheadedness.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I'm sayin what I always say, what I believe.

I don't buy the "need" for top picks at QB. Goff-Wentz are not better football players than Ramsey, Elliott, Bosa, Tunsil, etc. Teams are stupid for giving up multiple picks in multiple years to take lesser players when there is miles of proof it's not required.

People choose to ignore it. They believe QB is everything. I feel sorry for that. I really do.

Coaching, GM, 52 other players > 1 damn player.

Call me crazy for believing that.

Ummmmm the majority of the Eagles starters are already set going into the season

Elliot or Ramsey (at CB) would probably be the only immediate starters for the Eagles.. Unless Tunsil was going to play guard year 1

Lane Johnson was taken 4th overall to eventually replace peters when he left

And if you feel this strongly about QBs, I'd love to hear your views on RBs since you named Elliot above

Good example. RB. Everyone knows you can get a RB "anywhere"

People lose their **** when I say exact same about QB.

Elliott is great, but I def would prefer to grab one later, cheaper, since shelf life is so dangerous. AP, Gurley are rare, absolutely, but LeVeon, Charles, Arian Foster, Shady all equally effective at lower costs.

I see it very similar.

If you stack your board 1-250, and a RB is #10, better than the other 240, ok. But don't take him #1, or 4 or whatever.

I know not all boards are the same, some team needs come into account, but I'm sorry, Goff and Wentz were not the 2 best players in college football. And not only do teams draft them, they give up multiple years worth of picks to do it.

A quarterback that becomes the 7-12th best quarterback in the league is more impactful on winning than 3 solid position players combined.

Maybe not 3 elite position players but the likelihood of drafting 3 elite players in two draft classes is just as improbable as Wentz becoming Aaron Rodgers.

 

[CP1708]

Draft picks in general aren't a sure bet though.

Teams that draft well can acquire good players in any round and teams that don't can have a ton of picks and do nothing.

this is why you don't give away picks all willy nilly though. you need multiple picks to hit on a portion of them. give em away and lower your the number you hit on

Quarterbacks have a higher positional value than any other position in football though.

A top borderline probowl 7-12 quarterback is worth more to a football team than 3 or 4 borderline probowl position players.

Joe Thomas is the best left tackle in football

Joe Haden is borderline elite

Alex Mack was a top 3 Center.

The Cleveland Browns where still a dumpster fire.

Ok, and the other CB opposite Haden?

The other 3 spots on the OL?

Any good WR's? RB? How bout LBers? Safeties? DLine?

If the Browns gave me Joe Thomas, Haden and Mack, and I gave them Aaron Rodgers in his prime, are they good now?

Peyton Manning in Denver wins the Super Bowl.
Peyton Manning in Cleveland does, what?

He's the same QB either way, so naturally he wins the SB for the Browns this year, right?

You are a Lions fan, how aren't you seeing this? It's so easy to grasp.

Dalton 3rd round, team wins 10+ a year.
Russ 3rd round, team wins 10+ a year.
Brady 6th round, team wins 10+ a year.
Rodgers 24th, team wins 10+ a year.

Stafford #1, team?
Cam #1, SB this year, he won 5 games last year.

I mean.....?

Bridgewater won your division. Late 1.

Favre tortured you for years, 2nd round.

Bears went to a Super Bowl with Rex Grossman and Jim McMahon.

Why on Earth would you fall for the QB hype? I truly don't understand.

The 2013 Cleveland Browns literally had solid to borderline pro bowl players at EVERY POSITION you just listed.

And dumpster fire.

Don't bring up Dalton, Bridgewater or Grossman because remember if you don't win it all it doesn't matter if you win any games. Be consistent with your absolutism and not just when it serves your arguemnt.

Only Super Bowl champions.

Only SB champions, so you bring up the 2013 Browns?

Do you want me to only do SB champs? Cuz we can do that just fine. How far back you wanna go?

This year Peyton?
Brady?
Russ?
Flacco?
Rodgers?
Eli x 2?
Ben x 2?
Brees?
Peyton (There's one for ya)
Brady a few times
Brad Johnson?
Dilfer?

Still havin fun?

Warner
Old Peyton Elway x 2
Favre
Steve Young
Aikman x 3. (There's one for ya)
Rypien
Hostetler
Doug Williams
Montana x 4
McMahon
Phil Simms

So how we doin thru 30+ Super Bowls?

3 Aikman's with maybe the deepest team ever assembled.
2 Elways and no Terrell Davis.
1 Peyton after being benched
1 real Peyton
2 Eli's, I'll pretend his defense wasn't a thing.

But hey, 2013 Browns or somethin.

1/3 of all Super Bowls have been won by #1 picks.

54% of Super Bowls have been won by 1st round quarterbacks.

That's isn't arguable.

Its a statistical fact.

Agreed. Fact.

Broncos won in 2016 cuz of the 1998 #1 pick.
And won in 1997-98 cuz of the 1984 #1 pick. Not the 6th round RB.

Giants won 2, cuz of Eli shutting down the Patriots.

Cowboys won on the arm of Troy Aikman.

These are facts too, I guess.

#ContextNotIncluded

 

[IATT]

Elliott is great, but I def would prefer to grab one later, cheaper, since shelf life is so dangerous. AP, Gurley are rare, absolutely, but LeVeon, Charles, Arian Foster, Shady all equally effective at lower costs.

I see it very similar.
{

If you land a franchise QB, you potentially have that position set for 10-15 years

Even though the guys you named started out cheap because of draft position, they did get expensive quick.. And as the nature of the position those guys took a beating and we see their bodies breaking down




But you get guys like Chris Johnson last year.. Or Justin forsett the year before.. Or McFadden going over 1000 last year

If you luck out with a QB past the 1st round then good for that team, but history has shown that isn't something you can bank on

And guys like Brees, favre, dalton, kaep, Carr.. Success stories you mention are all at the very top of the 2nd


But again, there are busts at QB all over the draft.. Ask the Browns

 

[SneakerProSr.]

You know what CP you are right.

You know more than all these guys including the franchise that just fleeced the Dipset, got all the picks in the world, actually hit on most of them and still never went better than 8-8 because they didn't have a quarterback.

You and Sea Manup just post and post til whomever you are arguing gives up.

 

[CP1708]

It isn't about bein right. I get yelled at like this every single time QB comes up. 98% of the world agrees with you and the QB dynamic. Thas fine.

But there are college football junkies on this board. Die hards. Not a one of em ever watched a minute of Carson Wentz. Now he's goin #2 in the NFL draft. At the cost of several draft picks.

I find that ridiculous.

98% of NFL followers got no issue with it. Just not me man, thas all.

 

[IATT]

I'd build up an OLine, get a nice RB duo, get a decent WR group, try to build on my defense, and just keep using a 4th on QB, or sign a FA and coach them up, with real talent around them.

I just wouldn't reach for one.
l

Eagles only top 10 pick the last 15 years was spent on the Oline.. Plus a number of guys were brought in through free agency

A 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks were used on WRs recently.. Plus a high 2nd on a TE

Majority of our picks the last 3 drafts have been on defense




Eagles have selected other QBs then I have named.. Several during mcnabb's time.. And we're still in the position trying to find the answer at that spot

You givin up 6 picks for that 4th round pick for Barkley?

You givin up 6 picks for a LT? A Safety?

Eagles didn't give up 6 picks to get to 2

 

[EddieDoyers]

I didn't even know North Dakota had a college football team

 

[SneakerProSr.]

It isn't about bein right. I get yelled at like this every single time QB comes up. 98% of the world agrees with you and the QB dynamic. Thas fine.

But there are college football junkies on this board. Die hards. Not a one of em ever watched a minute of Carson Wentz. Now he's goin #2 in the NFL draft. At the cost of several draft picks.

I find that ridiculous.

98% of NFL followers got no issue with it. Just not me man, thas all.

I'm willing to bet I've watched as much film on the Detroit Lions as any of their coaches in the last 4 years. I watch the all 22 and everything. I got cuts up on my iPad and everything.

This does not make me qualified to be a scout or a coach for the Lions no matter how much I think I know.

No shade but "junkies" watching college football aren't scouts.

Those same people would shade Steve McNair today.

 

[CP1708]

It isn't about bein right. I get yelled at like this every single time QB comes up. 98% of the world agrees with you and the QB dynamic. Thas fine.

But there are college football junkies on this board. Die hards. Not a one of em ever watched a minute of Carson Wentz. Now he's goin #2 in the NFL draft. At the cost of several draft picks.

I find that ridiculous.

98% of NFL followers got no issue with it. Just not me man, thas all.

I'm willing to bet I've watched as much film on the Detroit Lions as any of their coaches in the last 4 years. I watch the all 22 and everything. I got cuts up on my iPad and everything.

This does not make me qualified to be a scout or a coach for the Lions no matter how much I think I know.

I believe it. I'm no scout either, I'm a **** head with a keyboard. But I can remember history. I can find patterns. I did all these posts off my head tonight, I haven't even truly researched every detail. I cut off at 5 to avoid the Locker's, Ponder's, Gabbert's etc. Manziel, Tebow blah blah.

Just focused on top 1-5 picks only. And it don't add up. IMO. I believe 100% you can build a team fully and add a QB later, not grab the QB first, destroy him ala David Carr, and he's done 3-4 years later.

Not to get too deep, it's not even JUST QB's at fault. GM's. HC-OC's. College levels too. They spend alllllllllllllll this time, money, energy on this one position, how many actual really good to great QB coaches are there?

Who in St Louis is really gonna teach Goff properly?
Who in Philly gonna show Wentz the ropes?

Do you feel Stafford has been taught well all these years? How many coaches have been recycled there with him?
Lord knows I've had worthless coaches for years and we've drafted or traded for 30 QB's the last few years.

Such an "important" position, so little focus on true development. One bad year, everyone gets fired, start all over. That's not how you protect an investment, IMO.

 

[IATT]

But there are college football junkies on this board. Die hards. Not a one of em ever watched a minute of Carson Wentz. Now he's goin #2 in the NFL draft. At the cost of several draft picks.

I find that ridiculous.

That sounds like a you problem..



Guess Titans shouldn't have taken Steve McNair because Alcon state games weren't all over tv.. Or the Ravens with flacco when he was coming out of Delaware.. Or Marshall Faulk when he was coming out of San Diego state

Hell jerry rice when he was coming out of Mississippi valley state

 

[CP1708]

I wasn't sayin junkies determine if Wentz is good or not, just meant no one has seen what he has. I mean, who did he play against?

And no one, no one, nobody was hyping him 5-6 months ago. Now he's #2? Entire draft? Above Ramsey? Bosa? VH3? Tunsil, Elliott, Myles Jack? Buckner? He's better than all these guys, based on 6 months beating....I have no idea?

Maybe I'm way off. Maybe he is the next McNair.

 

[IATT]

Who in Philly gonna show Wentz the ropes?

Head coach did it for mcnabb.. And backed up favre

Bradford is still with the team, for now

And Daniel was brought in


No one is getting thrown into the deep end

 

[SneakerProSr.]

It isn't about bein right. I get yelled at like this every single time QB comes up. 98% of the world agrees with you and the QB dynamic. Thas fine.

But there are college football junkies on this board. Die hards. Not a one of em ever watched a minute of Carson Wentz. Now he's goin #2 in the NFL draft. At the cost of several draft picks.

I find that ridiculous.

98% of NFL followers got no issue with it. Just not me man, thas all.

I'm willing to bet I've watched as much film on the Detroit Lions as any of their coaches in the last 4 years. I watch the all 22 and everything. I got cuts up on my iPad and everything.

This does not make me qualified to be a scout or a coach for the Lions no matter how much I think I know.

I believe it. I'm no scout either, I'm a **** head with a keyboard. But I can remember history. I can find patterns. I did all these posts off my head tonight, I haven't even truly researched every detail. I cut off at 5 to avoid the Locker's, Ponder's, Gabbert's etc. Manziel, Tebow blah blah.

Just focused on top 1-5 picks only. And it don't add up. IMO. I believe 100% you can build a team fully and add a QB later, not grab the QB first, destroy him ala David Carr, and he's done 3-4 years later.

Not to get too deep, it's not even JUST QB's at fault. GM's. HC-OC's. College levels too. They spend alllllllllllllll this time, money, energy on this one position, how many actual really good to great QB coaches are there?

Who in St Louis is really gonna teach Goff properly?
Who in Philly gonna show Wentz the ropes?

Do you feel Stafford has been taught well all these years? How many coaches have been recycled there with him?
Lord knows I've had worthless coaches for years and we've drafted or traded for 30 QB's the last few years.

Such an "important" position, so little focus on true development. One bad year, everyone gets fired, start all over. That's not how you protect an investment, IMO.

The truth of matter is hitting a on franchise quarterback lets you keep your job and even if you build a solid roster but you are missing a quarterback you are going to get fired.

Ya boy Andrew Luck got Ryan Grigson 7 years as an NFL GM while me and you could probably build a better roster.

The man that traded a 1st for Trent Richardson has a contract through 2019.

 

[dmxfury]

A civil discussion in the football thread

With QB and draft talk

 

[kingkoopa]

Delete

 

[kingkoopa]

wont the browns just waste those picks as usual though . can you browns fan confirm this

I'm goin on record today.

Browns will be a playoff contender within 3 years.

I think the organization is awake now.

Hugh is a smart man and had a lot of options.

Him signing there tells me they ready for a change.

 

[va757va]

I'm goin on record today.

Browns will be a playoff contender within 3 years.

I think the organization is awake now.

Hugh is a smart man and had a lot of options.

Him signing there tells me they ready for a change.

I can agree with all this.. It just feels different this time.. Call me naive or whatever, but they seem to be pointing in the right direction..

Plus I'm flat out rooting for hue. He's good at his job.