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OFFICIAL NEW YORK KNICKS OFFSEASON THREAD: TRAINING CAMP
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by the gr8,
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Exactly.
You can't just throw a bunch of guys together who are somewhat talented and just expect to throw them out on the court for them to figure itout. You have to put together guys that complement one another both on the court and off. There has to be some kind of cohesion and cooperation.
Isiah grabbed a bunch of guys with talent who teams were trying to get rid of and expected it to work. Well, it didn't.
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That's 100%, absolute BS. And you know it is.
What is phil jackson gonna do? Give out masters of ZEN hand guides for motivation?
Stephon ain't the guy that's going to go out there and drop 10 assists every night. It's not his game.
Well we need a point guard, someone whos gonna say "im settiing up my teammates tonite" someone who'sgonna sacarfice his OWN GAME for the sake of the team.
whats the definition of a point guard again? (steve nash,chris paul,jason kidd,mike bibby hurt is better than stef right now)
35 points, OK. 30 boards? Both of them are seriously marginal rebounders for their size. They're both terrible defenders. It's not their fault Isiah didn't realize that when he decided to pair them together.
Maybe i stretched the rebounds a bit but seriously, when you have a CENTER AND POWER FORWARD 6"10 andbetter they must average 20 + boards on a nighly basis, i think zach averaged 13boards last season.
Jamal Crawford. 60%...
I know its never gonna happen, but if he stops taking those rushed off balanced leaners/jumpers his percentagewould be alot better.
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Originally Posted by BullsRepeat3Peat
man the Celtics were laughing at the score
darthska
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If the team has talent but isn't getting it done, you HAVE to look at the coach.
The coach is supposed to know how to HARNESS that talent and make plays that WORK AROUND, THROUGH, and WITH that talent.
And the Knicks definitely have talent. Eddy Curry could be utilized better. Starbury could be utilized better. Q-Rich could DEFINITELY be utilized better. Leecould be utilized better. Nate Rob could be utilized better. Randolph could be utilized better.
The reason they're not being utilized effectively is IN PART because of their own egos, but in :LARGER part because their coach is clueless as to what todo with them.
If KG, Ray, and Pierce were on a team coached by someone with the philosophy, "Enh, you guys are all professionals. And you're all basketball players.You don't need me to tell you what to do; you guys can all figure it out, because you're all grown men," the Celtics would NOT be this successful.
Am I saying that the Celtics are successful because of Doc Rivers? No... but yes. They are successful in PART because they are all willing to play their roles,but they are also successful in part because Doc Rivers is maximizing their potential.
Phil could definitely do more with this team. Absolutely. Hell, the Lakers are one of the top scoring teams in the league. Now tell me who on our team wouldmake you think we're a top scoring team? Kobe? O.K., who else?
I didn't say that we can score points; I said we are a TOP SCORING TEAM. At home,we are the top 3rd best team in the league in terms of scoring.
#3
Because of KOBE?! C'mon, man... you can't seriously believe that. Phil is doing the damn thing with this team of Kobe and a bunch of role players.
And a better coach could do the same with the Knicks, because the talent is there.
They need a leader that the talented players respect, and they have all lost respect for Isiah. Whether that's his fault or not is irrelevant; they'velost respect for him, and a new guy is needed... NOW.
The coach is supposed to know how to HARNESS that talent and make plays that WORK AROUND, THROUGH, and WITH that talent.
And the Knicks definitely have talent. Eddy Curry could be utilized better. Starbury could be utilized better. Q-Rich could DEFINITELY be utilized better. Leecould be utilized better. Nate Rob could be utilized better. Randolph could be utilized better.
The reason they're not being utilized effectively is IN PART because of their own egos, but in :LARGER part because their coach is clueless as to what todo with them.
If KG, Ray, and Pierce were on a team coached by someone with the philosophy, "Enh, you guys are all professionals. And you're all basketball players.You don't need me to tell you what to do; you guys can all figure it out, because you're all grown men," the Celtics would NOT be this successful.
Am I saying that the Celtics are successful because of Doc Rivers? No... but yes. They are successful in PART because they are all willing to play their roles,but they are also successful in part because Doc Rivers is maximizing their potential.
Phil could definitely do more with this team. Absolutely. Hell, the Lakers are one of the top scoring teams in the league. Now tell me who on our team wouldmake you think we're a top scoring team? Kobe? O.K., who else?
#3
Because of KOBE?! C'mon, man... you can't seriously believe that. Phil is doing the damn thing with this team of Kobe and a bunch of role players.
And a better coach could do the same with the Knicks, because the talent is there.
They need a leader that the talented players respect, and they have all lost respect for Isiah. Whether that's his fault or not is irrelevant; they'velost respect for him, and a new guy is needed... NOW.
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I think it goes beyond the coach. Someone like Phil may or may not be able to get more out of them, it really depends. The Knicks' problem, as I'vebeen saying, is their one-dimensionality. The players all have only one dimension, and it's the same one dimension for every key player. It's shoot,look to score. None of the KEY players do the dirty work, rebound well, look to pass, play D, etc. They just look to score at the first opportunity.
darthska
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^ Thing is, they do NOT respect Isiah. That's obvious.
So there are two 'first steps' from there.
#1- Make player changes, but keep the coach.
#2- Make a coaching change, but keep the players.
If you start by making player changes but keep the coach, if that's your first step, you will fail, becuase the guys that remain STILL don't respectthe coach. Say you get rid of Starbury and Curry. O.K., you still have the rest of the guys that have no respect for Isiah, and their lack of respect is goingto filter down to the new guys you bring in to replace Curry and Stephon.
Say your first step is to get rid of the coach, and keep the players (for now). At the VERY LEAST, you will have a roster full of guys that give this new coacha clean slate. Even if it's not some super-respectable coach like Phil Jackson, they will still give him a chance and respect him more than they respectIsiah.
So there are two 'first steps' from there.
#1- Make player changes, but keep the coach.
#2- Make a coaching change, but keep the players.
If you start by making player changes but keep the coach, if that's your first step, you will fail, becuase the guys that remain STILL don't respectthe coach. Say you get rid of Starbury and Curry. O.K., you still have the rest of the guys that have no respect for Isiah, and their lack of respect is goingto filter down to the new guys you bring in to replace Curry and Stephon.
Say your first step is to get rid of the coach, and keep the players (for now). At the VERY LEAST, you will have a roster full of guys that give this new coacha clean slate. Even if it's not some super-respectable coach like Phil Jackson, they will still give him a chance and respect him more than they respectIsiah.
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What is phil jackson gonna do?
Phil is flat out a better coach and leader than Isiah Thomas. Isiah has no authority within his own locker room. He lets his emotions and personalissue with players spill over into his work and interfere with him doing his job. He's got no sense of how to manage attitudes and personalities within hisorganization, and it's frankly becoming an embarassment to himself and the Knicks franchise...Phil Jackson would not be in the situation Isiah is in rightnow, not a chance.someone whos gonna say "im settiing up my teammates tonite" someone who's gonna sacarfice his OWN GAME for the sake of the team.
That's not Stephon, never has been. Isiah knew that when he traded for Stephon. Isiah has made Stephon a franchise building block. Marburyisn't a good facilitator of an offense, he's not a great distributor. He's going to get his, every night. It's just how he is. And tocompliment Marbury off the bench? Nate Robinson, another PG that isn't a good facilitator or distributor.i think zach averaged 13boards last season.
He averaged 10. Randolph is the same type rebounder as Dirk Nowitzki and Amare. He'll get rebounds because of his size and where he plays onthe floor defensively, but he's not going to dominate a game on the glass like Boozer, Duncan, Howard, Garnett, etc...He's an average rebounder. Curryis a terrible rebounder.but if he stops taking those rushed off balanced leaners/jumpers his percentage would be alot better.
That's how Jamal plays. Again, another trait Isiah knew before he brought Jamal in. And what does he put beside him? Quentin Richardson.Another volume shooter that really can't do much else.Sounds like boston to me, only it did work!
Big difference is, Boston dealt for motivated, hungry, talented superstars with complementary skill sets that have led teams before in the past.New York deals for unmotivated, fringe all-stars and pays them like top tier talents. Danny Ainge has been a terrible GM the last few years, but what he didthis past offseason was GREAT. Those 3 guys are rejuvenated, motivated, and out for blood. Isiah lets guys like David Lee keep him from acquiring those kindsof talents. The sad thing is, the fan base is convinced guys like David Lee should be untouchable as well. Dudes were talking about "David Lee better notbe involved in a deal for Kobe!"Really?
Isiah is completely at fault for what's going on with the Knicks right now. Sure, he inherited a terrible situation, but he's arguably made it worse.He deals for known complainers and guys that play unmotivated ball, and he's got absolutely no motiviation skills as a head coach. He brings in attitudesand questionable assets, and has no idea how to manage the attitudes and implement roles for players. He gets involved in a sexual harassment lawsuit at MSG,and further drags the Knicks through the mud. He benches a player, gets in a high school-esque argument with said player, dismisses the player from the team,asks the team for their opinion in regards to the situation, and then goes AGAINST their opinion.
As a fan of basketball with no ties to the situation, seeing the New York Knicks like this is pathetic and embarassing. The on-court stuff should beembarassing enough for the players, coaches, franchise and owner. The off-court stuff embarasses the entire NBA. Isiah has run that franchise into the groundevery bit as bad as Layden did. Yes, the players have to hold some of the responsibility, but at some point, it's got to fall on the General Manager thatassembled the roster and the Coach that couldn't manage the team or earn any type of respect from his players. Isiah has to go. Period. They needto find new leadership up top, buy-out or trade the majority of their roster, and build from the ground up. This franchise will not turn a corner until thisera is completely behind them.
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Don Nelson-Ran outta town,
Van gundy jumped ship,
Lenny wilkens (all time winning coach & loser i know) didnt get a fair shake,
Everybody ran larry brown outta town.
These are coaches with winning teams in the league (Besides larry& lenny) and we ran them outta town!
How many more coaches do we have to go through before we put the blame on the players?
It was just last year the Fans of boston were yelling FIRE DOC every home game. (now he's the man again?)
I feel fans especially NY fans jump the gun to quickly, your only as good as your last game in the eyes of most fans.
Tell steph to get back on Defense instead of complaining to the ref's, o yea thats isiahs fault also!
Van gundy jumped ship,
Lenny wilkens (all time winning coach & loser i know) didnt get a fair shake,
Everybody ran larry brown outta town.
These are coaches with winning teams in the league (Besides larry& lenny) and we ran them outta town!
How many more coaches do we have to go through before we put the blame on the players?
It was just last year the Fans of boston were yelling FIRE DOC every home game. (now he's the man again?)
I feel fans especially NY fans jump the gun to quickly, your only as good as your last game in the eyes of most fans.
Tell steph to get back on Defense instead of complaining to the ref's, o yea thats isiahs fault also!
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my favorite knick of all time has to be benard king also.
i hate those comercials tho
i hate those comercials tho
darthska
Staff member
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bklyn style baby wrote:
Tell steph to get back on Defense instead of complaining to the ref's, o yea thats isiahs fault also!
Ummm... YEAH!
Is it Isiah's fault that Starbury doesn't exert himself on D? No... and yes.
That's a perfect example of something that we're saying the coach is NOT doing; coaching.
Coaching isn't just drawing line cuts and ball rotations on a clipboard.
But at this point, I'm not even sure Isiah's even doing THAT well.
And none of the previous coaches have pushed this team, either.
I'm not saying FORGET about the players role in this Broadway tragedy that is 'The New York Knicks', and that seems to be what the Knicks frontoffice has done. It seems they've just looked at the coach and disregarded looking at the players.
I'm saying BEGIN with the coach, THEN move to the players.
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aiight, i woke up a couple of hours ago.......homie's still in charge? what a joke.
anyway, tonight is a winnable game. if (big if) this team shows no carryover from last night, we can come away with a victory. if we quit 2 minutes into thegame, we're going to lose. hopefully we don't get smashed on our home court.
anyway, tonight is a winnable game. if (big if) this team shows no carryover from last night, we can come away with a victory. if we quit 2 minutes into thegame, we're going to lose. hopefully we don't get smashed on our home court.
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thomas has lost all respect. knicks players despise him. not a good look.
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I'm just ashamed..
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darthska
Staff member
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I don't know, but neither you or I are in any sort of NBA circle, so either you or I have any idea who's available and credible.
The Mavs groomed Avery Johnson.
Byron Scott has worked out for the Hornets.
There are people out there, more than you or I know about.
Hell, there could be a Knick Asst. Coach that fits the bill. I don't now, and neither do you.
But anyone would be more respected by the players than Zeke. Because they respect him none.
The Mavs groomed Avery Johnson.
Byron Scott has worked out for the Hornets.
There are people out there, more than you or I know about.
Hell, there could be a Knick Asst. Coach that fits the bill. I don't now, and neither do you.
But anyone would be more respected by the players than Zeke. Because they respect him none.
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Isiah made himself too much a friend to these guys to win their approval and now it has backfired
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23ska909red02
If the team has talent but isn't getting it done, you HAVE to look at the coach.
The coach is supposed to know how to HARNESS that talent and make plays that WORK AROUND, THROUGH, and WITH that talent.
And the Knicks definitely have talent. Eddy Curry could be utilized better. Starbury could be utilized better. Q-Rich could DEFINITELY be utilized better. Lee could be utilized better. Nate Rob could be utilized better. Randolph could be utilized better.
The reason they're not being utilized effectively is IN PART because of their own egos, but in :LARGER part because their coach is clueless as to what to do with them.
If KG, Ray, and Pierce were on a team coached by someone with the philosophy, "Enh, you guys are all professionals. And you're all basketball players. You don't need me to tell you what to do; you guys can all figure it out, because you're all grown men," the Celtics would NOT be this successful.
Am I saying that the Celtics are successful because of Doc Rivers? No... but yes. They are successful in PART because they are all willing to play their roles, but they are also successful in part because Doc Rivers is maximizing their potential.
Phil could definitely do more with this team. Absolutely. Hell, the Lakers are one of the top scoring teams in the league. Now tell me who on our team would make you think we're a top scoring team? Kobe? O.K., who else?I didn't say that we can score points; I said we are a TOP SCORING TEAM. At home, we are the top 3rd best team in the league in terms of scoring.
#3
Because of KOBE?! C'mon, man... you can't seriously believe that. Phil is doing the damn thing with this team of Kobe and a bunch of role players.
And a better coach could do the same with the Knicks, because the talent is there.
They need a leader that the talented players respect, and they have all lost respect for Isiah. Whether that's his fault or not is irrelevant; they've lost respect for him, and a new guy is needed... NOW.
note that I'm not defending Isiah because he put this team together, but as a coach there is only so much you can do.....If the player'sare determined not to listen to you then what can you do? How do explain the past four coaches being unsuccessful in NY? If Isiah is at fault it is as a GMmore than a coach......Don't expect a new coach to come in with that same roster and completely turn it around.........he also had to clean up ScottLayden's mess in NY.......
[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]bklyn style baby[/color]
It all started with the trade of ewing to the sonics. Knicks deserve all the struggling that they are doing.
Some of you cats need to jump off isiahs buddy, he's not the one playing defense, he's not the one running the point, nor is he the one turning the ball over every 40seconds. On paper this is one of the better teams in the east. The guys on the team just dont want it! I remember when it was nearly imposible for the oposing team to win in the garden, and it wasnt because of the talent we had ( dominant knick squads won because they wanted it, they willed themselves to victory & had each others back!) This knicks team is soft and point fingers like they're babies.
All i know is when the knicks won it wasnt because of talent.
non soft knicks - D.Lee & R.Balkman
ya......it's funny how "100%" of the blame goes on Isiah.......I agree he doesdeserve some blame obviously, but not all of it......I mean the past 4 coaches is proof of that.....Isiah was never this bad in Indiana....but it's sad hewill be likely remembered more as a bad GM than a great player.....You look at thoseold Knick teams, a perfect example is Oakley...He wasn't exactly the most talented player, but his desire and toughness was unmatched.......I mean it'sa different ballgame today than it was say 15 years ago or even 10 years ago......but that's another story. As for the Ewing trade, I honestly don'tknow what happened.....to this day he is still expecting a call from the Knicks to become an aassistant coach.......
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It's simple
Charles Dolan needs to step in
- Fire his son
- Fire Isiah
- Get rid of 90% of the team or let the contracts play out
- Rebuild correctly
I've said it countless times..I do not care how long this process takes...I'd rather suffer 5 years of rebuilding then continued hopes of sneaking inthe playoffs...only to be a 30 win team
Charles Dolan needs to step in
- Fire his son
- Fire Isiah
- Get rid of 90% of the team or let the contracts play out
- Rebuild correctly
I've said it countless times..I do not care how long this process takes...I'd rather suffer 5 years of rebuilding then continued hopes of sneaking inthe playoffs...only to be a 30 win team
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Hell, there could be a Knick Asst. Coach that fits the bill. I don't now, and neither do you.
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I'm sick to my stomach, Milledge was just traded.
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You sir are a complete cretin and ignoramus! I'm sorry. I usually don't come to threads and throw people under the bus. But that comment deservesone.
What are you smoking thinking the NBA is doing fine? Sure they're making money and profits, but this is NYC. The most important city in the WORLD. Yeahnot, league, not country, WORLD! Everything that happens here gets known and receives immediate attention. Why don't you think ESPN didn't make a hugedeal about the Bulls losing to the Raptors by 40 last week?? A successful team from last year, with a very talented roster losing to another good team.
The NBA needs the Knicks to be successful. With a better NY team it brings in tons of revenue, and market shares into the league. More fans would comein. Look at the MLB for example. Why do you think they make so much money? Not because baseball is Americas past-time. Its because the Yankees are successful.A good NY team generating more fans which equates to MONEY. But thats kind of going off topic.
Its just not acceptable anymore. This isn't the Charlotte Knicks where you can go and have losing streaks. Fans just won't have any of this.
For you to actually sit down in front of your computer, and make that type of statement shows how little you know about the buisness of the NBA. Just stick tosoccer my dude.
And FYI........Messi>>>Tavez
