OFFICIAL GAME OF THRONES THREAD | HOUSE OF THE DRAGON Premieres 8.21.22 | OFFICIAL TRAILER REVEALED

[masagipatron]

Y'all saying this like the Targareyn's had a legitimate claim to royalty. They took Westeros by force.

Yeah but they did establish a dynasty that lasted centuries and they united the kingdoms. They created this one nation and established the system. Robert and co just fought and took over. It's not the same thing.

 

[shogun]

They did go by succession which is why the crown went to joffrey. It's everyone else's fault they didn't notice cersei's kids didn't have black hair. jon arryn and ned had some evidence but didn't make that ish public.

 

[Master Zik]

Y'all saying this like the Targareyn's had a legitimate claim to royalty. They took Westeros by force.

Yeah but they did establish a dynasty that lasted centuries and they united the kingdoms. They created this one nation and established the system. Robert and co just fought and took over. It's not the same thing.

The only difference is length of time. You're basically just saying the Targs are more legitimate due to length of their reign and establishing some ****. Cuz all the Targs did to get to that point was fight and take over in order to maintain their rule.

I'm pretty sure had Robert had a real heir the Baratheon line would've done the same thing.

That goes for real world royalty as well. Its not like GOD, the old gods, Lord of the light, the 7 or any other made up thing came down and announced this person king or family royalty. They all become royalty through force.

Only thing separating the Targs is their dragons. Only thing. Second they all died they eventually got tried, took their L, and mostly got wiped out.

So I don't really see how a Baratheon's claim is any less legit than a Targareyn one.

They did go by succession which is why the crown went to joffrey. It's everyone else's fault they didn't notice cersei's kids didn't have black hair. jon arryn and ned had some evidence but didn't make that ish public.

Well Stannis did and if the rules and rights of succession still matter he was the only heir to the throne.

At least that's what Ned felt.

Arryn got killed before he could do anything and he wasn't even killed cuz he got caught figuring it out. Littlefinger had Arryn's wife kill him just to start all this ****.

 

[raider5]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Targaryen's travelled to Westeros and united/created the 7 Kingsoms. By force, sure but there was no 7 Kingdoms before the Targaryens.

 

[raider5]

Anywho, wrapped up the series rewatch.

Any speculation on where Littlefinger goes from here? He clearly didn't expect Jon to be claimed as King, and I'm sure that's something he would have wanted himself since he wants Sansa's yambs.

Think Sansa had that look of happiness for Jon but worry because of Littlefinger.

 

[shogun]

Well they were 7 separate kingdoms / territories. Dorne is the only place they couldn't conquer so they added it through marriage. It's why they still had princes and princesses. Here's a list I saw on wiki.

Kingdom of the North, ruled by House Stark of Winterfell.

Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, ruled by House Arryn of the Eyrie.

Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, ruled by Harren Hoare of Harrenhal.

Kingdom of the Rock, ruled by House Lannister of Casterly Rock.

Kingdom of the Stormlands, ruled by House Durrandon of Storm's End.

Kingdom of the Reach, ruled by House Gardener of Highgarden.

Principality of Dorne, ruled by House Martell of Sunspear.

 

[tdogg2k]

The real question is was this king thing for renly his own idea.......or did LF play a part in that. The show made it seem like they were friendly. Book didn't.

 

[HNL HI]

The real question is was this king thing for renly his own idea.......or did LF play a part in that. The show made it seem like they were friendly. Book didn't.

I know Loras mentioned it during a scene on the show.

 

[tdogg2k]

Right. That's not in the books (the whole renly gay thing/ I actually don't remember loras being specifically pointed out as gay either.).

But even in the show. It seemed like they chatted a lot. There was no way renly could have know. About Jon arryns findings unless someone fed it to him and he seemed to had known for awhile

 

[shogun]

His kingsguard did rock rainbow cloaks. I thought that was GRRM's way of pointing it out or hinting at something.

 

[Master Zik]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Targaryen's travelled to Westeros and united/created the 7 Kingsoms. By force, sure but there was no 7 Kingdoms before the Targaryens.

Yes.

So to me it makes perfect sense that w/e groups defeats and wiped them out are then the new rulers and the leader, new royalty.

Just cuz they unified the 7 kingdoms by force don't make them anymore deserving of the title of royalty. The show itself continually hammers home in dialogue especially around the war of the 5 kings that this how it is. Targs just maintained it the longest to date.

 

[tdogg2k]

You also have to remember. Targa weren't even the strongest of the old times before discovering the 7 kingdoms. Just a couple were smart enough to get the hell out of dodge before a Pompeii type event happensd

 

[masagipatron]

The only difference is length of time. You're basically just saying the Targs are more legitimate due to length of their reign and establishing some ****. Cuz all the Targs did to get to that point was fight and take over in order to maintain their rule.

I'm pretty sure had Robert had a real heir the Baratheon line would've done the same thing.

That goes for real world royalty as well. Its not like GOD, the old gods, Lord of the light, the 7 or any other made up thing came down and announced this person king or family royalty. They all become royalty through force.

Only thing separating the Targs is their dragons. Only thing. Second they all died they eventually got tried, took their L, and mostly got wiped out.

It's not just a length of time thing. The Targ's basically established the West in this story. There was no single throne in Westeros before the Targs, all the kingdoms were separate. They laid down the foundation of government and maintained it. For that reason, they are more legitimate because the system of government was established by them. Whether they had dragons, money or leprechauns, that's just how they took over. Even Robert is just continuing what was already established. He didn't rewrite history, he's just another ruler in this same system. Only difference is that he's not a true Targ heir but the consensus was that it was his rebellion and he did have some Targ blood which people like Ned used to justify his rule (also partly why they had to kill off as many Targs as possible). But as I mentioned before, the significance of Robert's coronation (and Renly used this excuse to justify his own campaign for the throne) was that all bets were off now. They didn't have to accept the old system of lineage since Robert took things by force. That's why Renly felt he could leap over Stannis.

 

[Barbados Slim]

The real question is was this king thing for renly his own idea.......or did LF play a part in that. The show made it seem like they were friendly. Book didn't.

They weren't friendly in the show though. LF showed up at Renly's camp and he made it pretty clear that he hated LF.

They also had a moment at the joust between Loras and the Mountain. 

 

[booie403]

The real question is was this king thing for renly his own idea.......or did LF play a part in that. The show made it seem like they were friendly. Book didn't.

If I'm not mistaken it was the Tyrell's (og Olenna) plan, hence why Marg was married to 3 different kings. No way they were going to let Stannis be king, they family had dude dead to right eating rats. You know Stannis was going to take a hand off one of them. lol

 

[Master Zik]

The only difference is length of time. You're basically just saying the Targs are more legitimate due to length of their reign and establishing some ****. Cuz all the Targs did to get to that point was fight and take over in order to maintain their rule.


I'm pretty sure had Robert had a real heir the Baratheon line would've done the same thing.


That goes for real world royalty as well. Its not like GOD, the old gods, Lord of the light, the 7 or any other made up thing came down and announced this person king or family royalty. They all become royalty through force.


Only thing separating the Targs is their dragons. Only thing. Second they all died they eventually got tried, took their L, and mostly got wiped out.

It's not just a length of time thing. The Targ's basically established the West in this story.

Bruh

The only way they can establish anything is if they have the time to do it.

Of course if you give one ruling body 100 years of rulership they'll get around to establishing a system.

None of that makes them legit royalty. Just founders of a system. I'm failing to see the uniqueness in there being many kingdoms and having the idea after beating them all to establish one king, one kingdom overseeing many realms.

There isn't a single example of a ruling power running things for so long that just didn't do ****.

 

[HNL HI]

the way Hawaii was formed is similar(minus the dragons), each island was its own kingdom until Kamehameha I unified each island by force. Then when Hawaii was one kingdom(minus Kauai, they had a deal like Dorne) it was only descendents of him that ruled.

 

[raider5]

the way Hawaii was formed is similar(minus the dragons), each island was its own kingdom until Kamehameha I unified each island by force. Then when Hawaii was one kingdom(minus Kauai, they had a deal like Dorne) it was only descendents of him that ruled.

the lineage of Kamehameha considered Royalty around there or nah?

 

[masagipatron]

Bruh

The only way they can establish anything is if they have the time to do it.

Of course if you give one ruling body 100 years of ridership they'll get around to establishing a system.

None of that makes them legit royalty. Just founders of a system. I'm failing to see the uniqueness in there being many kingdoms and having the idea after beating them all to establish one king, one kingdom overseeing many realms.

There isn't a single example of a ruling power running things for so long that just didn't do ****.

So what are examples of legit royalty in ASOIAF?

 

[HNL HI]

the way Hawaii was formed is similar(minus the dragons), each island was its own kingdom until Kamehameha I unified each island by force. Then when Hawaii was one kingdom(minus Kauai, they had a deal like Dorne) it was only descendents of him that ruled.

the lineage of Kamehameha considered Royalty around there or nah?

Would be yeah, but not sure they can confirm that they actually are. Also tho the bloodlines of the Ali'i which is considered people who are high born were like royalty back then, Chiefs/Chiefess etc...Kamehameha wasn't of a lineage that would have been considered that high up there but he still was able to go thru with unifying all the islands.

 

[Barbados Slim]

Bruh

The only way they can establish anything is if they have the time to do it.

Of course if you give one ruling body 100 years of ridership they'll get around to establishing a system.

None of that makes them legit royalty. Just founders of a system. I'm failing to see the uniqueness in there being many kingdoms and having the idea after beating them all to establish one king, one kingdom overseeing many realms.

There isn't a single example of a ruling power running things for so long that just didn't do ****.

Are you saying that Westeros would have been united under one king eventually even without Aegon? And that Aegon simply beat them to the punch of establishing the system that's currently being used in ASOIAF? 

 

[Master Zik]

Bruh


The only way they can establish anything is if they have the time to do it.


Of course if you give one ruling body 100 years of ridership they'll get around to establishing a system.


None of that makes them legit royalty. Just founders of a system. I'm failing to see the uniqueness in there being many kingdoms and having the idea after beating them all to establish one king, one kingdom overseeing many realms.


There isn't a single example of a ruling power running things for so long that just didn't do ****.

So what are examples of legit royalty in ASOIAF?

There are none. Legit royalty doesn't exist if you don't consider taking **** by force legit royalty.

Unless we're talking some fairytale scenario where the ppl of the land peacefully choose a leader or family to rule and recognize them as royalty due to other arbitrary qualities.

My whole point is if you're gonna dismiss any Baratheon claim of being royalty cuz they took it by force then the Targareyn's are dismissed as well. All that established a system is after they took it by force. That's more of an argument that they became royalty after a time.

Royalty, royal blood, kings and queens are just classist labels to separate ppl from the common rabble and try to put them above.

Granted in this fictional world GRRM could make up some supernatural reasoning for royalty but he hasn't.

Are you saying that Westeros would have been united under one king eventually even without Aegon?

No. Not really. I'm saying he took the land and became ruler by force no different than Robert. Then did all that other ****.

I mean GRRM wrote it that way so that's how it happened. Conceivably he could've wrote it differently where all the lands become united under some different dude or different circumstances.

And that Aegon simply beat them to the punch of establishing the system that's currently being used in ASOIAF? 

No. Aegon had dragons. There's no beating to the punch when everybody else has cannons and wildfire at best to use as a weapon.

Perhaps if the giants banded together they could've done all that **** instead given the right giant in charge.

Or some other fictional mythical race of ppl or animal that a group of ppl can command.

As far as the system, united under one king isn't some radical change. Its just the multiple kings across the land on a larger scale. He beat the other kings, took their land, and had them pledge loyalty/fealty.

Its conceivable that if that doesn't happen over time more wars are waged until there's only 2 or 3 kingdoms left his treaties and alliances. Either way I think just like the real world the path towards democratic republics were inevitable.

 

[Barbados Slim]

I mean GRRM wrote it that way so that's how it happened. Conceivably he could've wrote it differently where all the lands become united under some different dude or different circumstances.
No. Aegon had dragons. There's no beating to the punch when everybody else has cannons and wildfire at best to use as a weapon.

Perhaps if the giants banded together they could've done all that **** instead given the right giant in charge.

Or some other fictional mythical race of ppl or animal that a group of ppl can command.

As far as the system, united under one king isn't some radical change. Its just the multiple kings across the land on a larger scale. He beat the other kings, took their land, and had them pledge loyalty/fealty.

Its conceivable that if that doesn't happen over time more wars are waged until there's only 2 or 3 kingdoms left his treaties and alliances. Either way I think just like the real world the path towards democratic republics were inevitable.

Gotcha that makes sense. I was trying to understand the "only difference is time" point. 

I think what Masagi is getting at (and I could be wrong) was that before the Targs the 7 kingdoms  were divided all with their own kings, laws, gov, etc. Aegon united them under HIS rule, laws, gov, etc. which was the system used for centuries after his conquest. Rob rebelled against the king not the system and when he won, his ties to the Targ line where used to justify his "claim" and he continued the system build by the Targs. Because people are fighting for a control of that system, they have a better "claim".

If I'm wrong then what ever

. ...I'll step outta this one. 

 

[Master Zik]

Well originally I was talking about Stannis. Last name Baratheon. Who does have the best claim out of everybody warring for the throne.

Its a clear as day line of succession claim. Robert had no living heirs. Just cuz Robert died doesn't make Stannis' claim lesser and allow for a free for all.

Nobody else does at the time or even now. Not Renly.

Besides Robb was really just fighting for independence after Ned died, get his sisters and to maybe kill Geoffrey. Not for the iron throne.

The 2 Targs were too far away to factor in as well.

If the argument is turning in to the Targereyns set up the system and if a Targ isn't on the throne then anybody else's claim is illegitmate cuz they're not a Targ whether they take it by force or not then **** the system.

The realms are better off breaking up and going back to the old ways, king in the north, queen of the iron islands, crazy king of the Vale, etc.

 

[tdogg2k]

Which is still why it was asinine for renly to even step out of line the way he did. Renly is the cause of the 5king war.
Robb stark just wanted revenge
Balon greyjoy was just salty (no pun)
Of course thelannisters weren't going to say hey there's incest going on. Greyjoy and stark would have eventually fell in line if not for renly.
Season 1. Ep10. Book 1 last Catelyn chapter. The dude who initially rode for Robb to be King. Was mad about renly and stannis preparing to fight over king
If it was just stannis they would've reunited.
High garden may or may not have stayed out of it.
Or still aligned themselves with renly because again stannis had no sons.

So what are examples of legit royalty in ASOIAF?

Valyrians??

Are you saying that Westeros would have been united under one king eventually even without Aegon? And that Aegon simply beat them to the punch of establishing the system that's currently being used in ASOIAF? 

Zik already answered this. But most houses were pretty much ruthless before aegon got there. Especially Lannister. Baratheon. (Family that owned harrenhall) was the worst. That's why balerion had to burn that joint down to the ground dude was a habitual line stepper

I know we all went really deep. But for those who only watch the show. Pick up that history's of westerns book. Gems dropped everywhere



Edit; No one knew about Dany and Viserys outside of jorah and the counsel. So they weren't even a viable option