OFFICIAL GAME OF THRONES THREAD | HOUSE OF THE DRAGON Premieres 8.21.22 | OFFICIAL TRAILER REVEALED

[masagipatron]

Question: just finished my rewatch of season 5 and I get why Thorne and co. wanted to take out Jon but do they really not understand or believe in the white walkers?

Maybe I missed something, or maybe the book elaborates more but he's only trippin off the wildlings when Jon is trippin off the bigger picture. Or is he meant to just be that stubborn?

Thorne just really hates Jon. He was a Targaryen loyalist so he hates Jon because of his relation to Ned. Plus he thinks the best defense the realm has is the Wall. He knows the White Walkers are real. In the books, Jon sends him north of the Wall for a ranging and Thorne tells Jon that he's going to come back looking for Jon whether dead or alive. He just really despises everything about Jon. If he only knew the truth about Jon's parents he might be on his knees blowing Jon instead of trying to fight him at every turn.

Most of the Night's Watch are at least aware of wights because of the wight that tried to kill Old Bear. They also tease Samwell for killing a White Walker by calling him Sam The Slayer.

 

[raider5]

Didn't know Alliser was a Targaryen fan boy. But I understand he hates Jon and his concern for letting the wildlings in.

And I guess what I'm really asking is there a difference between the book and the show as far as the perception of the white walkers at the castle black? I feel like no one from the Night Watch take the threat as serious as Jon and his small crew who have seen them.
It really just makes Alliser look stupid and stubborn to not consider what Jon is doing all this for...or at least they don't display that on the show

 

[shogun]

He was just a piece of crap along with his supporters. Too stupid to see or care about the threat of white walkers to the world.

 

[Mark Antony]

Kind of like coal miners with black lung benefits from Obamacare caring to vote for Trump more so than their own health benefits.

 

[shogun]

Doesn't that orange fool they elected want to still give tax breaks to the rich while not helping the low income people who voted for him? I bet they'll ignore that he lied about most things even when the stuff he does makes their lives worse.

 

[Nouss]

Kind of like coal miners with black lung benefits from Obamacare caring to vote for Trump more so than their own health benefits.

 

[masagipatron]

And I guess what I'm really asking is there a difference between the book and the show as far as the perception of the white walkers at the castle black? I feel like no one from the Night Watch take the threat as serious as Jon and his small crew who have seen them.
It really just makes Alliser look stupid and stubborn to not consider what Jon is doing all this for...or at least they don't display that on the show

Newer Nights Watch recruits probably don't believe in White Walkers, like most of the realm, who regard White Walkers as either fantasy or creatures that existed a long time ago but are extinct. Older Nights Watch brothers are at least aware of wights because Jon killed one of them while defending Old Bear. Regardless it doesn't really matter- the Nights Watch is mostly made up of scumbags from the realm. They aren't the brightest group around. The smartest members tend to be the ones who volunteered to be in the NW (Aemon, Old Bear, Jon) or were forced against their will (Sam). I think a guy like Thorne is just a miserable prick qho doesn't fear death. What matters to him at this point in his life is to make his enemies suffer. I don't think it matters to Thorne if Jon is right or not. Jon is also a bastard so Thorne has even less respect for him.

 

[lawdog1]

I think a guy like Thorne is just a miserable prick qho doesn't fear death. What matters to him at this point in his life is to make his enemies suffer.

This. Above all else, Ser Allister was just a ****.

 

[Barbados Slim]

Didn't know Alliser was a Targaryen fan boy. But I understand he hates Jon and his concern for letting the wildlings in.

And I guess what I'm really asking is there a difference between the book and the show as far as the perception of the white walkers at the castle black? I feel like no one from the Night Watch take the threat as serious as Jon and his small crew who have seen them.
It really just makes Alliser look stupid and stubborn to not consider what Jon is doing all this for...or at least they don't display that on the show

I agree with everything GRRM above said, but here's might take.

Jon knows that the WW are a serious threat to everyone, because of the things he's seen and knows. A majority of the NW have heard stories about men coming back to life, but few of them have actually seen them and even fewer have seen the WW(NW that are still alive that is). I think it's easier for them to believe in the "threat" of the wildlings since they've been fighting them for centuries. I think Thorne knew that which is why I think it was so easy for him to get people to betray Jon. 

One thing to keep in mind is generally only rangers go north of the wall. So NW that are cooks, stone masons, etc. probably have never seen a wight let alone a WW, but they know that the NW have been fighting wildlings for centuries. Can't blame them if the believe Thorne over Jon. 

 

[raider5]

I agree with everything GRRM above said, but here's might take.
Jon knows that the WW are a serious threat to everyone, because of the things he's seen and knows. A majority of the NW have heard stories about men coming back to life, but few of them have actually seen them and even fewer have seen the WW(NW that are still alive that is). I think it's easier for them to believe in the "threat" of the wildlings since they've been fighting them for centuries. I think Thorne knew that which is why I think it was so easy for him to get people to betray Jon. 

One thing to keep in mind is generally only rangers go north of the wall. So NW that are cooks, stone masons, etc. probably have never seen a wight let alone a WW, but they know that the NW have been fighting wildlings for centuries. Can't blame them if the believe Thorne over Jon. 

Completely understand this. But what about the Wight that tried to murk Lord Commander Mormont? Like said earlier, I know they're not the brightest bunch...

I just feel like they could have made Alliser's perspective make more sense. Like you understand why Jamie pushes Bran out the window. You understand why Stannis burned Shireen. We don't agree with it, but they developed the character enough for us to understand why they did it. I don't get that with Alliser other than he was just a **** and a stubborn punk.

 

[Barbados Slim]

Completely understand this. But what about the Wight that tried to murk Lord Commander Mormont? Like said earlier, I know they're not the brightest bunch...

I just feel like they could have made Alliser's perspective make more sense. Like you understand why Jamie pushes Bran out the window. You understand why Stannis burned Shireen. We don't agree with it, but they developed the character enough for us to understand why they did it. I don't get that with Alliser other than he was just a **** and a stubborn punk.

Yeah that's basically it I guess. 

Maybe Thorne's existence in the story is to develop Jon's character. Jamie and Stannis both have story arcs but Thorne doesn't, which is why his actions might not have needed any explanation or something. I'm just spit balling.

 

[masagipatron]

One thing to keep in mind is generally only rangers go north of the wall. So NW that are cooks, stone masons, etc. probably have never seen a wight let alone a WW, but they know that the NW have been fighting wildlings for centuries. Can't blame them if the believe Thorne over Jon. 

Good point

 

[masagipatron]

Completely understand this. But what about the Wight that tried to murk Lord Commander Mormont? Like said earlier, I know they're not the brightest bunch...

I just feel like they could have made Alliser's perspective make more sense. Like you understand why Jamie pushes Bran out the window. You understand why Stannis burned Shireen. We don't agree with it, but they developed the character enough for us to understand why they did it. I don't get that with Alliser other than he was just a **** and a stubborn punk.

Those examples of Jaime and Stannis showed each character doing something to further his agenda. Jaime wanted to keep his relationship with Cersei a secret so he tried to kill Bran. Stannis needed a way out of the snow and out of desperation, listened to Melisandre's suggestion of a sacrifice. Thorne hates Jon and wants to discredit him and kill him when the opportunity presents itself. One major difference between the show and the books though, as I mentioned before, Jon sends Thorne ranging. The main traitor in the books is Bowen Marsh (in the show, he's one of the NW brothers that Jon hangs). Bowen was close to winning the Lord Commander position but Jon beat him. Every decision that Jon makes in the books, Bowen is always presenting the counter argument until it reaches the point where Jon is ready to leave the Night's Watch to fight Ramsay and Bowen and his group of traitors execute their coup. I think the show wanted to concentrate more on the beef between Thorne and Jon. The books presented the blatant animosity between Thorne and Jon but the real danger to Jon was Bowen Marsh who was always close to Jon and second guessing his decisions. 

 

[sfc415]

Anyone watch Medici with Robb Stark on Netflix? Just an average time killing show, but episode 2 brought back memories of GOT

 

[raider5]

 
Those examples of Jaime and Stannis showed each character doing something to further his agenda. Jaime wanted to keep his relationship with Cersei a secret so he tried to kill Bran. Stannis needed a way out of the snow and out of desperation, listened to Melisandre's suggestion of a sacrifice. Thorne hates Jon and wants to discredit him and kill him when the opportunity presents itself. One major difference between the show and the books though, as I mentioned before, Jon sends Thorne ranging. The main traitor in the books is Bowen Marsh (in the show, he's one of the NW brothers that Jon hangs). Bowen was close to winning the Lord Commander position but Jon beat him. Every decision that Jon makes in the books, Bowen is always presenting the counter argument until it reaches the point where Jon is ready to leave the Night's Watch to fight Ramsay and Bowen and his group of traitors execute their coup. I think the show wanted to concentrate more on the beef between Thorne and Jon. The books presented the blatant animosity between Thorne and Jon but the real danger to Jon was Bowen Marsh who was always close to Jon and second guessing his decisions. 

This is more or less what I was seeking, I just don't think the show did a good enough job to warrant the Nights Watch leaders to kill their Lord Commander. Olly, yes - they built that and made it clearly obvious. Alliser always hated Jon for no legit reason but okay I was good to ride with it throughout the series, but to hear of another character (Bowen Marsh) always second guessing Jon and  him being the one who betrays him sounds much more understandable (for lack of a better word). I still just get the sense that the Nights Watch don't give a damn about the army of the dead...

 

[calibeebee]

Completely understand this. But what about the Wight that tried to murk Lord Commander Mormont? Like said earlier, I know they're not the brightest bunch...


I just feel like they could have made Alliser's perspective make more sense. Like you understand why Jamie pushes Bran out the window. You understand why Stannis burned Shireen. We don't agree with it, but they developed the character enough for us to understand why they did it. I don't get that with Alliser other than he was just a **** and a stubborn punk.

Yeah that's basically it I guess. 
Maybe Thorne's existence in the story is to develop Jon's character. Jamie and Stannis both have story arcs but Thorne doesn't, which is why his actions might not have needed any explanation or something. I'm just spit balling.

I think Thorne and others were also extremely jealous of Jons rich boy background. Jon wasn't forced to the watch, he chose it. Which pissed off a lot of ignorant pieces of trash that make up the nights watch.

Great comparison to the poor uneducated working class trump supporters

 

[tdogg2k]

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[shogun]

2 of them do have bran's haircut.

 

[shogun]

Forgot to mention how food Sophie was looking at the golden globes. I read she's dating joe jonas now. Bet he enjoys eating her cake.

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[Narcissist]

Rewatching the series and on season 3 and realized I don't like Catelyn Stark. Actually looking forward to her death scene

 

[Barbados Slim]

^^ I don't think anyone likes her, especially by season 3 

 

[lawdog1]

^^^ It was almost impossible to still like her by then because she kept doing one dumb thing after another.

 

[ksteezy]

The Starks we're doomed from the get, this world isn't meant for good people, it took Sansa getting raped, Jon being betrayed and killed and Arya losing everyone and going through hell and back alone for them to finally be on par with the way of Westeros.

 

[KingParappa]

If only Brandon Stark would have killed Littlefinger....

Man I wonder, what would the world be like if Brandon killed Littlefinger?

 

[hoosier bad boy 11]

^^ I don't think anyone likes her, especially by season 3 

Reading the books I really hated her, especially the way that she treated Jon. She did try to speak some sense into her idiot eldest son.