November 5th is "Bank Transfer Day". Update pg.10

[soltheman]

Originally Posted by FrankMatthews

Originally Posted by soltheman

 
No, but that's not the point. You say a bank is to not have anymore than 10% of their deposits on hand at any time. That makes sense, as it's a deterrent for theft, keeps peoples' money safe, etc. However, my point is that they probably don't have even half of the money in their possession. Having things on hand and having things within possession are two very different concepts. A bank can have their money in a safe location and still have it be accessible to them. My point is that most of them don't.

What fueled this country's economy is not the banking system. It's not. Stop thinking that. Without money already being within this country, we wouldn't have had a need for banks. What fueled America's economy (and what is now missing from America) is production, and not only production but the different branches of the corporations that did said production being housed in the U.S. What stopped the growth of the economy is the consolidation and removal of production, and what really hit the general population is the outsourcing of jobs to other countries. But that's another topic for another time.

It's true that our lives would be extraordinarily different without the banking system, and it does have it's conveniences. But, banking existed before the Federal Reserve. The centralization of banking in the U.S. is what led to it's decay. It's not the concept of a bank that is now holding back the American people, it's how that concept is executed.

There can be no perfect system set in place. Why? Because a perfect system changes when the wants and needs of its people change. There isn't a system in existence that exploitation won't occur in. Exploitation is the oldest profession in human existence. However, we can help move towards a system that limits exploitation, keeps wealth distributed more fairly, and forces people to accept the higher responsibilities that come along with belonging to a higher socioeconomic class.

And there already is a single world currency; precious metal (such as gold.) Most people just haven't figured that out yet.

Not to sound arrogant but you really have no idea what you are talking about.  For the most part I agree with people that the system is f'ed up but I would like people to actually know the ins and outs about how stuff works.  It's like the blind leading the blind in here.

When you say on hand or in possession it really means the same thing to me.  It has very little to do with theft deterrents and very much to do with maximizing profits.  When you deposit money into a bank they don't burn your cash or check and they don't directly lend your cash to others, in other words they have it on hand, they may send a certain amount to the fed reserve for safe keeping if they are getting too many deposits but they have it.  What they don't have or actually what doesn't even exist is the money they loan out.  Your deposit of $10 allows them to make loans up to $100 with that $10 as a reserve, hence fractional reserve.  They are not lending out peoples deposits.  When you ask for a home loan the bank calls up the fed reserve and says so-and-so needs $300k for a house and then the fed, electronically, creates that money out of thin air and it goes on the banks books provided they have at least 10% of that 300k in deposits.  When you pay that loan off that $300k disappears back into thin air, all that remains is the interest the bank earned.  In other words, all deposits are accounted for either in the banks vault or through their account with the fed.  It's the loaned out money that they don't have and never had to begin with except for the fractional reserve they must have to make those loans. 

It is actually the banking system that provided this growth.  Production provided our growth throughout the industrial revolution but sine the 1940s-50s it is the banking system described above that created our massive growth.  We have produced next to nothing in the last 30 years but we still have significant growth.  When you can create money out of thin air then of course you are going to grow.  A fractional reserve of 10% means that it only takes 1 million in actual earned money (or profits from actual production) to create financing up to 100 million for small or large business, to buy houses or cars which in turn provide jobs and economic growth and to research and develop new technologies.  In other words, the banking system allows us the financing to "produce" more than we would otherwise be able to. 

Yes banks have been around forever and yes it is the way the banking system is set up that makes it "bad".  When I say our lives would be different I was referring to the fact that we would not have been able to produce or grow as much as we did based on the example above. You are right, the problem is not the concept of a bank it is the use of interest.  Interest is an exponential equation in a world of finite people and resources, in other words it's unsustainable.  Fractional reserve only amplifies this problem.

I'd like to hear how you would limit exploitation and keep wealth distributed more fairly in todays world.  Wouldn't be too hard in a vacuum, but in todays world with todays people and how they are used to living, I really doubt it is possible.

Oh and you might wanna check the definition of the word "currency" because metals certainly are not a currency.  There seems to be this misguided notion that gold is going to become an actual circulated currency in the future which is virtually impossible.  There is not enough gold in existence to account for the wealth we think we have even at $2k an ounce.  Were this too happen everyones net worth would take a serious haircut.  Talk about a great depression, this would be cataclysmic.  I can elaborate on this and the many other issues that make PM's as a currency impossible if you are interested.  How do you price goods in gold without the dollar or some other currency as a reference point?

I completely agree with the first half of your post. That what my point was. That banks don't actually have the money that they claim to. On an investment of $10 they create an additional $90 out of thin air. My argument wasn't meant to be contradictory to that point. I concur with you on that.

My contention is that the recent "growth" due to banking wasn't really growth, but rather a void that went relatively unnoticed up to this point in our society. I don't think that there can be growth on top of a fictional foundation (i.e. the money that the banking system created out of thin air.) I believe that it is this imaginary growth and a capitalization upon funds that didn't really exist that has caused the rut that we are currently in. While it's true that we wouldn't have been able to grow so quickly without the use of fractional banking, I don't think we were supposed to. Actually, I know we weren't supposed to. Our growth has spawned from deceit. I don't consider it growth. I consider it a get rich quick scheme, so to speak, only on a much bigger level.

How I would limit exploitation? Make taxes unavoidable, and proportional to the amount of money that an individual or corporation makes. There's no reason why a person making 40k a year should pay the same percentage of taxes that a person making 400k does. Secondly, I would withdraw the military installations across the globe that are a continuous drain of resources. Thirdly, I would take money from the military and other foreign endeavors and refocus it into the educational system and domestic security. Fourth, reform the medical, prison, and insurance institutions of the nation to be more efficient, fair, and work on ways to make them profitable rather than a money hog. It's fairly vague because I haven't actually thought it out (as it's not my job,) but those are the first points that come to mind.

Lastly, I know what currency is. And gold, by the technical definition of currency, is a form of currency. It is a generally accepted medium of exchange. You can take a bar of gold to just about any country and exchange it for paper money. It's not that we use currency as a reference point of worth for gold, we use gold as a reference point for our currency. It's not that the price of gold is getting higher, it's that the value of our currency is decreasing. I don't mean to say that gold is a save all, and that its the only thing worth something. The value of every form of currency is simply perceived. They weren't using dollar bills in the dark ages. But, I think gold is a standard in which most (if not all currencies) can be translated to.

I'd love to PM you, but let's keep this debate friendly and open. I'd like to see input from other NTers, and I really liked your first rebuttal and I'm hoping to learn more from you because you seem very knowledgeable -- despite my disagreement.

 

[memphissfinest]

Originally Posted by AME416

It's not that Memp. pays a lot of bills, it's that he does it all IN PERSON

GOTTA DO WHAT I GOTTA DO.

I'M ALSO NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN HERE COMPLAINING ABOUT OVERDRAFT FEES AND GETTING RIPPED OFF.

THERE'S NOTHING FOR THEM TO RIP OFF.

 

[kingsuperbiv]

Originally Posted by DaBulls23

..i went to the bank one weekend and tried to take out $300 for some bills i needed to pay in the morning. you know how the ATM machine makes thats shuffle sound to disperse your cash? well this ATM did everything right up until that point, straight up told me to take the cash but there was none there.
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so, the next morning i go straight to the bank. they say:

BANK: hey!, we've been waiting on you

ME : okay, i thought something was wrong

BANK: yeah, you were the first one it done it too and no one was able to get money after that.

ME : cool, so what do i need to do to get my money

BANK: well, first you have to fill out these forms

ME : (filled out) okay.....

BANK: then we have to forward these forms to headquarters and our security department to make sure you had sufficient funds in the account

ME : but you can see my account from here to see if the funds were there 

BANK: sorry, bank policy

ME : how long is this process supposed to take

BANK: 30 - 60 days

ME : what!?!?

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Out of curiousity, what bank did this happen with, and how long ago? The reason I ask is that 30 to 60 days is completely against regulations (Unless you are leaving the part out where they gave you a provisional credit earlier than that time frame, in order to make the bank look worse). You are required to be given a provisional credit within 10 business days at the latest if they didnt resolve your issue by that 10th business day. For an issue like that BoA usually provides that provisional credit the next business day, and sometimes even the same day.

I figured he was full of it once he said the other customers never got their money after 30 days. How the heck does he know that?

 

[seasoned vet]

Originally Posted by KingSuperbIV

Originally Posted by DaBulls23

..i went to the bank one weekend and tried to take out $300 for some bills i needed to pay in the morning. you know how the ATM machine makes thats shuffle sound to disperse your cash? well this ATM did everything right up until that point, straight up told me to take the cash but there was none there.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]

so, the next morning i go straight to the bank. they say:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]
Out of curiousity, what bank did this happen with, and how long ago? The reason I ask is that 30 to 60 days is completely against regulations (Unless you are leaving the part out where they gave you a provisional credit earlier than that time frame, in order to make the bank look worse). You are required to be given a provisional credit within 10 business days at the latest if they didnt resolve your issue by that 10th business day. For an issue like that BoA usually provides that provisional credit the next business day, and sometimes even the same day.

I figured he was full of it once he said the other customers never got their money after 30 days. How the heck does he know that?




...... times like these i cant stand the idiots on NT. +%%! would i lie about some #+@+ like this for? like how does that in any way equate to something worth lying about??

 - to answer the initial question. the bank was Amsouth (now Regions Bank) and this was in 1999. 

- as far as how i knew the rest of the customers had not recieved anything yet was because after i went off and threatened to take my 'federal every two weeks like clock work' business elsewhere, they brought the president out to try to talk me into staying by telling me NO ONE has gotten their money back yet. and they were still waiting on security blah blah. 
- but i wasnt trying to hear it. by the time i left i had my money.....

 

[frankmatthews]

Originally Posted by soltheman

I completely agree with the first half of your post. That what my point was. That banks don't actually have the money that they claim to. On an investment of $10 they create an additional $90 out of thin air. My argument wasn't meant to be contradictory to that point. I concur with you on that.

My contention is that the recent "growth" due to banking wasn't really growth, but rather a void that went relatively unnoticed up to this point in our society. I don't think that there can be growth on top of a fictional foundation (i.e. the money that the banking system created out of thin air.) I believe that it is this imaginary growth and a capitalization upon funds that didn't really exist that has caused the rut that we are currently in. While it's true that we wouldn't have been able to grow so quickly without the use of fractional banking, I don't think we were supposed to. Actually, I know we weren't supposed to. Our growth has spawned from deceit. I don't consider it growth. I consider it a get rich quick scheme, so to speak, only on a much bigger level.

How I would limit exploitation? Make taxes unavoidable, and proportional to the amount of money that an individual or corporation makes. There's no reason why a person making 40k a year should pay the same percentage of taxes that a person making 400k does. Secondly, I would withdraw the military installations across the globe that are a continuous drain of resources. Thirdly, I would take money from the military and other foreign endeavors and refocus it into the educational system and domestic security. Fourth, reform the medical, prison, and insurance institutions of the nation to be more efficient, fair, and work on ways to make them profitable rather than a money hog. It's fairly vague because I haven't actually thought it out (as it's not my job,) but those are the first points that come to mind.

Lastly, I know what currency is. And gold, by the technical definition of currency, is a form of currency. It is a generally accepted medium of exchange. You can take a bar of gold to just about any country and exchange it for paper money. It's not that we use currency as a reference point of worth for gold, we use gold as a reference point for our currency. It's not that the price of gold is getting higher, it's that the value of our currency is decreasing. I don't mean to say that gold is a save all, and that its the only thing worth something. The value of every form of currency is simply perceived. They weren't using dollar bills in the dark ages. But, I think gold is a standard in which most (if not all currencies) can be translated to.

I'd love to PM you, but let's keep this debate friendly and open. I'd like to see input from other NTers, and I really liked your first rebuttal and I'm hoping to learn more from you because you seem very knowledgeable -- despite my disagreement.

I re-read my post and I kinda sounded like a d-bag so i'll try to tone it down, it's just that i'm passionate about this stuff and I feel alot of people don't really know what is going on(not neccessarily you) and are being misled. Feel free to PM me too.

I guess I can agree with you that it is a type of fictional growth but it has had a real effect on our standard of living.  A standard of living that will/would decrease immensely in the event this system is taken off line or never existed.  Of course the whole world would have to go along with your line of thinking otherwise we will be the ones producing cheap products for Chinese consumers.  But I do agree with you, it is fictional, it's not right and it is a scheme.  This scheme, however, has been around long before the USA.

Your ideas about limiting exploitation are admirable.  I find them to be utopian though.  I should also point out that banks and/or wall st. have zero to do with implementing those ideas which is why I find these protests unsettling.  I understand people are mad but understand what you are mad about and who you are mad at.

I will have to disagree with you about gold, another subject I feel strongly about.  It is not a currency, you can trade just about any portable asset for paper currency across the globe, that does not make an asset currency.  I bet if I go to Europe it won't be hard to turn my Jordan XI's into Euros.  Jordans are hardly currency.  You cannot purchase goods and/or services with it. One thing to note; if we are still using fractional reserve and we are still charging interest when loaning out gold we will eventually wind up right back in the position we are in today, only faster since gold can't be printed out of thin air. I will have to reference you to the Silver thread since I just posted a novel there about the fallacy of PMs as a currency and why it will never happen.  Check it out and let me know what you think back in here. 

http://niketalk.com/topic/292734/master/1/?page=20

 

[dabulls23]

  - to answer the initial question. the bank was Amsouth (now Regions Bank) and this was in 1999.  

that makes sense. thats why i was wondering when it happened. I dont know what the rules were back in 99, so i dont doubt what you are saying there. Nowadays, there are regulations for that situation, so it would have to be handled completely differently now. 

 

[degenerate423]

If only there was a way to get rid of the federal reserve 

...

 

[throwedindagame]

Originally Posted by DaBulls23

The accounts that are closed on "bank closure day" are going to be very minimal in the big picture. I really cant see that many people closing accounts to have a huge affect on the large banks.

Also, to everyone who hates BoA, Chase, etc..., are you just closing your checking/savings accounts? how many still have mortgages, credit cards, CD's etc....? are you moving everything? refinancing your mortgage? just a curiosity of mine on how serious people are.

people with significant assets aren't participating in this.


Its the guys with like 4K saving accounts

 

[dabulls23]

^exactly my point.

 

[sreggie101]

Originally Posted by frostythepoptart

Banks are shady dude. Guess you didn't read about how Boa was skipping earlier transactions for the larger ones occurring much later just to force an overdraft fee

happened to me yesterday

 

[curbyourenthusiasm]

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Originally Posted by DaBulls23

The accounts that are closed on "bank closure day" are going to be very minimal in the big picture. I really cant see that many people closing accounts to have a huge affect on the large banks.

Also, to everyone who hates BoA, Chase, etc..., are you just closing your checking/savings accounts? how many still have mortgages, credit cards, CD's etc....? are you moving everything? refinancing your mortgage? just a curiosity of mine on how serious people are.

people with significant assets aren't participating in this.


Its the guys with like 4K saving accounts

its alot more "guys with like 4k saving accounts

" than "significant assets" tho....

so.....

 

[tj detweiler]

 

[definition of dopeness]

..................

 

[benssick]

Originally Posted by prymone

i have a free account no need to close it

 

[hankmoody]

 

[6 Rings G.O.A.T.]

Today is the day..

 

[brotherforreal]

I have Bofa Mortgage so I can't just up and leave and my DD with Chase gets me paid faster than when I had it with the Credit Union. That plus the nearest CC is out of my way= Big Banks win

 

[dathbgboy]

Originally Posted by sreggie101

Originally Posted by frostythepoptart

Banks are shady dude. Guess you didn't read about how Boa was skipping earlier transactions for the larger ones occurring much later just to force an overdraft fee

happened to me yesterday

Happened to me too. They pushed through a small deduction before my check went in to cover it so I would overdraw

That's the reason I left PNC and the reason I'm slowly transitionin from Citizens to PSECU. 

 

[DownByLaw]

Originally Posted by CurbYourEnthusiasm

Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Originally Posted by DaBulls23

The accounts that are closed on "bank closure day" are going to be very minimal in the big picture. I really cant see that many people closing accounts to have a huge affect on the large banks.

Also, to everyone who hates BoA, Chase, etc..., are you just closing your checking/savings accounts? how many still have mortgages, credit cards, CD's etc....? are you moving everything? refinancing your mortgage? just a curiosity of mine on how serious people are.

people with significant assets aren't participating in this.


Its the guys with like 4K saving accounts

its alot more "guys with like 4k saving accounts

" than "significant assets" tho....

so.....

Seriously. I never understood small timers who stay defending a class of people that do nothing but exploit them.

 

[chosen one]

I got a local bank so I guess I'm good.

Thank you Based God for changing my mind about opening up an account with BoA last year.

 

[kramer]

Today is the day

 

[Gill Baka Esq. LLC.]

I got $6.26 at Chase...idk if this be necessary.

 

[hankmoody]

[h1]5.6 Million Americans Have Switched Their Banks In The Last 90 Days[/h1]

Of those switchers, 610,000 US adults (or 11% of the 5.6 million) cited Bank Transfer Day as their reason and actually moved their accounts from a large to a small institution.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/02/02/417054/americans-moving-banks-90-days/

 

[ridingonlorenzos]

Originally Posted by HankMoody


[h1]5.6 Million Americans Have Switched Their Banks In The Last 90 Days[/h1]

Of those switchers, 610,000 US adults (or 11% of the 5.6 million) cited Bank Transfer Day as their reason and actually moved their accounts from a large to a small institution.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/02/02/417054/americans-moving-banks-90-days/

 

[jtplatnum]

i'm one of those americans ^^^

bye bye citibank hello Ally