IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[longstroke]

Yup. When we used to face Philly in the early 2000s, his defense gave Iverson fits and really was the difference in some of those matchups.

He sure did!
Feb 2002 vs Wizards
Bryant scored 18 of his 23 points in the second half, and also had 11 rebounds and a career-high 15 assists.

Now this is interesting, because you guys are pointing at one or two games.

I guess what I am really getting at is, if this guy can do this, then why doesn't this guy do it ALL of the time?

The all time greats, the definitive top ten, did.

If Kobe Bryant had ever shown himself to be a multifaced player, outside of being a one dimensional scorer, I don't think that anyone would doubt his place in history.

For me, it's like saying that the Iceman is top ten. Even though he didn't win any rings, George Gervin was a lethal scorer, but he was also the highest rated shotblocking guard in the NBA.

On all times lists, where does Kobe rank in steals, assists, rebounds?

This another reason as to why he is indeed overrated.

 

[longstroke]

Motivating teammates? The Redeem Team would like to speak to you. Durant, LeBron, etc. have all gone on record saying that playing and witnessing Kobe's worth ethic and competitive nature helped motivate them. Look up the shooting routine he gave Ariza (he calls it the 'Bible'). Actually look up what Ariza's done since he left Kobe. Look up Farmar, Sasha, Mihm, Walton, Odom, etc. Correlation is not causation but in more than a handful of cases, you can definitively say players were much more effective while playing on Bean's team.

Defense? Ask Iverson in the Finals. Or Barbosa in the Olympics. Has he deserved all of his Defense 1st Team honors? Probably not. But to say he doesn't play defense based on his lackluster effort the past few years is a bit crazy.

Rebounding? He had his worst shooting game in Game 7 of the Finals against the Celtics but was the game's leading rebounder. 

Now, can you give me examples of how MJ motivated his teammates or rebounded? Let's just keep it 100. MJ has physically fought players, verbally abused them (both as a GM & teammate), etc. 

The only players during Bean's time that can even be put in the same sentence talent/achievement-wise are Shaq, LeBron, and TD. Depending on who you ask, 2 or 3 of those players in someone's Top 10 of all time list. 

The more I learn about MJ & Kobe, the more I realize they're not only similar players but also similar people. Ultra-competitive, will do anything to win, etc. And yes, according to most of society's standards, they are both a-holes. But in the end, they're both worth hundreds of millions of dollars, are consensus top 10 players of all time, and more tellingly, they're 2 of the most widely-respected athletes by their peers & coaches of all time. 

You've got to understand something, as soon as you start to compare Jordan and Bryant, you are simply asking for trouble.

One is the blueprint, and the other is the facsimile

Kobe Bryant is NOT respected by players, not in the manner that you think that he is. Do they think that he is a highly skilled offensive player? Yup. However, on the other hand, and you bring up the Redeem Team, they TOLERATED Kobe Bryant, just to maintain team cohesion. They, do not like him. Do you want to know who the real alpha dog was on that team?

Jason Kidd.

Even after losing to the Mavs in the finals after that year, both Wade and LeBron stated on the record, that if they were to lose to anyone in the finals, that it was an honor to lose to Jason Kidd.

Now, you suggest that I look up other players that have both played with, and then against Bryant? Why would I want to do that?

Look at what's happening THIS year with the Lakers.

Now look at the Knicks.

Who needs to look back, when you can see what's happening right in front of you?

All these years, and he STILL hasn't learned how to run a team, lead a team, nor make anyone better.

Kobe Bryant is overrated.

 

[CP1708]

Kobe is top 15 in steals
Top 40 in assists
And has almost 6,500 rebounds in his career. At guard. Which would be about 125 all time.

He can finish around 14 steals, top 30 assists, 125 boards, and top 3 scoring.

25, 5, and 5 for a career.

One dimensional though.

 

[mjsaver]

Longstroke you have DR. J in your top 10 but do you hold him to the same standards ?

He's never been known as a great defender, avg same assist #s as Kobe , his # 1 strength was scoring, and FINALLY WHAT GAME DID DR J DOMINATE WITHOUT SCORING?

At least be consistent with your standards otherwise its all selective ********.

 

[menacin methods]

Kobe is top 15 in steals
Top 40 in assists
And has almost 6,500 rebounds in his career. At guard. Which would be about 125 all time.

He can finish around 14 steals, top 30 assists, 125 boards, and top 3 scoring.

25, 5, and 5 for a career.

One dimensional though.

Impressive! Hopefully some of the dude will bounce outta here after looking at those stats


View media item 169830

 

[longstroke]

Longstroke you have DR. J in your top 10 but do you hold him to the same standards ?
He's never been known as a great defender, avg same assist #s as Kobe , his # 1 strength was scoring, and FINALLY WHAT GAME DID DR J DOMINATE WITHOUT SCORING?
At least be consistent with your standards otherwise its all selective ********.

lol

Dr.J did it by carrying not only one league, but two.

Now that was too easy.

 

[longstroke]

Kobe is top 15 in steals
Top 40 in assists
And has almost 6,500 rebounds in his career. At guard. Which would be about 125 all time.
He can finish around 14 steals, top 30 assists, 125 boards, and top 3 scoring.
25, 5, and 5 for a career.
One dimensional though.

You think that top forty in assists, for a guard, one that played with some of the best bigs in the league, is impressive?

Really?

Really?

You do realize who Kobe is behind in steals, right?

Right?

How many years has he played again?

 

[longstroke]

Leaders: Points | Rebounds | Assists | Steals | Blocks

• Leaders
• Awards

Steals Leaders
RK	PLAYER	STL
1	John Stockton	3,265
2	JASON KIDD	2,591
3	Michael Jordan	2,514
4	Gary Payton	2,445
5	Maurice Cheeks	2,310
6	Scottie Pippen	2,307
7	Clyde Drexler	2,207
8	Hakeem Olajuwon	2,162
9	Alvin Robertson	2,112
10	Karl Malone	2,085
11	Mookie Blaylock	2,075
12	Allen Iverson	1,983
13	Derek Harper	1,957
14	Isiah Thomas	1,861
15	KOBE BRYANT	1,758
16	Magic Johnson	1,724
17	Ron Harper	1,716
18	KEVIN GARNETT	1,682
19	Fat Lever	1,666
20	Charles Barkley	1,648
21	Gus Williams	1,638
22	Hersey Hawkins	1,622
23	Eddie Jones	1,620
24	Rod Strickland	1,616
25	Mark Jackson	1,608

Next In Line
PLAYER	STL
SHAWN MARION	1,578
METTA WORLD PEACE	1,575
BARON DAVIS	1,530
PAUL PIERCE	1,530

*Active players are in CAPS.
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[longstroke]

Where's KOBE?

Assists Leaders
RK	PLAYER	AST
1	John Stockton	15,806
2	JASON KIDD	11,903
3	Mark Jackson	10,334
4	Magic Johnson	10,141
5	STEVE NASH	9,924
6	Oscar Robertson	9,887
7	Isiah Thomas	9,061
8	Gary Payton	8,966
9	Rod Strickland	7,987
10	ANDRE MILLER	7,594
11	Maurice Cheeks	7,392
12	Lenny Wilkens	7,211
13	Terry Porter	7,160
14	Tim Hardaway	7,095
15	Bob Cousy	6,955
16	Guy Rodgers	6,917
17	Muggsy Bogues	6,726
18	Kevin Johnson	6,711
19	Derek Harper	6,577
20	Nate Archibald	6,476
21	Stephon Marbury	6,471
22	John Lucas	6,454
23	Reggie Theus	6,453
24	Norm Nixon	6,386
25	Jerry West	6,238

*Active players are in CAPS.

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I must note, Jordan isn't there either, BUT! Jordan was close to averaging a triple double for two seasons.. and his career stats are,

32,292 (30.1 ppg)

6,672 (6.2 rpg)

5,633 (5.3 apg)

Stats at Basketball-Reference

[th="row"] Points [/th] [th="row"] Rebounds [/th] [th="row"] Assists [/th]

.

 

[mjsaver]

lol

Dr.J did it by carrying not only one league, but two.

Now that was too easy.

Smh see theres that selective ******** again, I'm talking skillwise.

Dr j was never known as an all around player, but how did he carry those leagues? By scoring, so again what did he do besides score pts. If Kobe is 1 dimensional then so is DR J.

 

[CP1708]

Stroke, do me a favor, compile a list for me.

Top 5 all scoring + top 15 steals + top 35 assists + 6,000+ rebounds for a career.

Tell me how many players, in the history of the NBA, are on that list.

The answer?

2.

Take a guess which 2 those are.



I got more for you, don't go nowhere.

Playoffs. All time.

Top 3 scoring. Top 7 assists. Top 30 rebounds.

If he were to play this year and next, and play saaaayyyy, 2-3 series. Say he's out in the first round both years, or he makes the second-third round this year, he will finish like this

#1 all time scoring, top 5 assists, top 20-25 rebounds.


All time.


With career averages, both regular season, and playoff, of nearly 25/5/5 with a steal a game, over the course of about......say 13-14 hundred games.


The only other player that can those same things? Michael Jordan.

Certainly no one is saying Kobe is better, or has surpassed Mike, not sayin that, what I am sayin, is NO OTHER NBA PLAYER IN HISTORY would have put that resume, next to Kobe and Mike. No one else.

There are currently ZERO players in NBA history with 6,000 career playoff points, 1,000 rebounds, and 1,000 assists.

Kobe is 360 points away and 60 assists away from 6,000, 1,100, and 1,100.

Kobe and Mike are the only 2 with 5,000, 1,000 and 1,000.



Now, how would you like to spin this one? More tales about George Mikan for us? Some Dr J stories? If Tracy McGrady never got hurt, he woulda........? The floor is yours, please, spin away.

 

[thegoldenchild]

You've got to understand something, as soon as you start to compare Jordan and Bryant, you are simply asking for trouble.

One is the blueprint, and the other is the facsimile

Kobe Bryant is NOT respected by players, not in the manner that you think that he is. Do they think that he is a highly skilled offensive player? Yup. However, on the other hand, and you bring up the Redeem Team, they TOLERATED Kobe Bryant, just to maintain team cohesion. They, do not like him. Do you want to know who the real alpha dog was on that team?

Jason Kidd.

Even after losing to the Mavs in the finals after that year, both Wade and LeBron stated on the record, that if they were to lose to anyone in the finals, that it was an honor to lose to Jason Kidd.

Now, you suggest that I look up other players that have both played with, and then against Bryant? Why would I want to do that?

Look at what's happening THIS year with the Lakers.

Now look at the Knicks.

Who needs to look back, when you can see what's happening right in front of you?

All these years, and he STILL hasn't learned how to run a team, lead a team, nor make anyone better.

Kobe Bryant is overrated.

we get you dont like kobe, so what.. get over it and move on, because you cant come up with any valid arguments, you have to start some BS, like you know what every player in the league thinks about kobe..

 

[tim teufel]

i dont like kobe but to say hes overrated is a joke. this dude has put in work and is still going strong.

 

[longstroke]

we get you dont like kobe, so what.. get over it and move on, because you cant come up with any valid arguments, you have to start some BS, like you know what every player in the league thinks about kobe..

THIS guy! LOL! Look what people say on camera, and then off, are two entirely different things.

They do not like the man.

Of course, you cannot take away what he has done on court, just like you cannot take away what anyone else has done while on court. However, OFF court, people, even as some of the fans of Kobe have already mentioned, he is a complete butthole, in the different sense that Jordan was, because at least, he'd hang with the fella's.

Kobe, does not do that. 

In order to promote the NBA, the league, players who are considered marquee players, and Kobe is one of them, can;t go around bashing each other in public. They are schooled by none other than David Stern, to not do that. 

Do all of your talking against each other on the court.

But once the season is over...

 

[longstroke]

Smh see theres that selective ******** again, I'm talking skillwise.
Dr j was never known as an all around player, but how did he carry those leagues? By scoring, so again what did he do besides score pts. If Kobe is 1 dimensional then so is DR J.

Doc was always known as an all around player, as he was considered THE BEST player in the game in his time, especially in while his prime.

Only you are saying that he wasn't, which is complete hogwash.

The issue with discussing this with people such as yourself, you only know what's good as far as your nose, and then never beyond that. 

The stats,

New York Nets  (ABA)

Philadelphia 76ers

NBA champion  (1983) 2× ABA champion  (1974, 1976) 3× ABA leader in points per game (1973, 1974, 1976) 2× ABA Playoffs MVP  (1974, 1976) NBA Most Valuable Player  (1981) 3× ABA Most Valuable Player  (1974–1976) 11× NBA All-Star  (1977–1987) 5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976) 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP  (1977, 1983) 5× All-NBA First Team  (1978, 1980–1983) 2× All-NBA Second Team  (1977, 1984) 4× All-ABA First Team  (1973–1976) All-ABA Second Team (1972) ABA All-Defensive First Team  (1976) ABA All-Rookie First Team  (1972) ABA Slam Dunk Champion (1976) J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award  (1983) NBA 35th Anniversary Team ABA All-Time Team NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team #6 Retired  by the Philadelphia 76ers #32 Retired  by the Brooklyn Nets

30,026 (24.2 ppg)

10,525 (8.5 rpg)

2,272 (2.0 spg)

Stats  at Basketball-Reference.com

[th="row"] 1976 – 1987 [/th] [th=""] Career highlights and awards [/th] [th=""] Career statistics [/th] [th="row"] Points [/th] [th="row"] Rebounds [/th] [th="row"] Steals [/th] [th=""] Basketball Hall of Fame as player [/th]

 

[ag 47]

I guess what I am really getting at is, if this guy can do this, then why doesn't this guy do it ALL of the time?

That ain't what you asked me. Don't change the argument now that you've been proven wrong plehboi...you asked "has Kobe EVER dominated a game by playing defense, etc..." The answer is still YES. Now look at you backpedal faster than Deion

 

[longstroke]

That ain't what you asked me. Don't change the argument now that you've been proven wrong plehboi...you asked "has Kobe EVER dominated a game by playing defense, etc..." The answer is still YES. Now look at you backpedal faster than Deion

No, it isn't. I didn't ask about one game, I was asking about his total game. 

You Kobe fans can't wait to be right about something, and you are simply so damned thirsty, that if we say that Kobe ties his shoes from left to right, and you find out that he doesn't, you'll have a goddamned parade about it.

This guy Kobe Bryant is nothing but an overrated scorer, one that can't do anything to lift a team, but he has proven that he can damned sure kill one in more ways than one.

Again, look at what's happening with the Knicks, and then what's happening with the Lakers. 

The Lakers suck, and they supposedly have a top ten player, and the best center in the NBA , and they are STILL garbage.

What?!

 

[goldenchild9]

LOOK.....JUST LOOK.....

You wanna know why the Lakers have been getting smacked this year and why Kobe is overrated?

Have a seat and get schooled.

Let me hear the ridiculous arguments, hater accusations and excuses now.

It's not about the comparison between MJ and Kobe its about an all-time great all around team player and a super talented but selfish volume scorer.

 

[longstroke]

Stroke, do me a favor, compile a list for me.
Top 5 all scoring + top 15 steals + top 35 assists + 6,000+ rebounds for a career.
Tell me how many players, in the history of the NBA, are on that list.
The answer?
2.
Take a guess which 2 those are.
I got more for you, don't go nowhere.
Playoffs. All time.
Top 3 scoring. Top 7 assists. Top 30 rebounds.
If he were to play this year and next, and play saaaayyyy, 2-3 series. Say he's out in the first round both years, or he makes the second-third round this year, he will finish like this
#1 all time scoring, top 5 assists, top 20-25 rebounds.
All time.
With career averages, both regular season, and playoff, of nearly 25/5/5 with a steal a game, over the course of about......say 13-14 hundred games.
The only other player that can those same things? Michael Jordan.
Certainly no one is saying Kobe is better, or has surpassed Mike, not sayin that, what I am sayin, is NO OTHER NBA PLAYER IN HISTORY would have put that resume, next to Kobe and Mike. No one else.
There are currently ZERO players in NBA history with 6,000 career playoff points, 1,000 rebounds, and 1,000 assists.
Kobe is 360 points away and 60 assists away from 6,000, 1,100, and 1,100.
Kobe and Mike are the only 2 with 5,000, 1,000 and 1,000.
Now, how would you like to spin this one? More tales about George Mikan for us? Some Dr J stories? If Tracy McGrady never got hurt, he woulda........? The floor is yours, please, spin away.

Speaking of career averages, 
[h1]KOBE BRYANT TO BREAK THE RECORD FOR MOST MISSED SHOTS IN A CAREER[/h1]

[h2]THE BLACK MAMBA SHOULD PASS JOHN HAVLICEK IN THE SEASON 2013/14[/h2]

[h3]KOBE BRYANT IS ON PACE TO BREAK THE RECORD FOR MOST MISSED SHOTS IN A CAREER, ACCORDING TO SOME FUN RESEARCH BY JOHN HOLLINGER AT ESPN.

LIKELY TO FALL IS JOHN HAVLICEK’S RECORD FOR MISSED FIELD GOALS, WHICH KOBE BRYANT SHOULD BREAK AT SOME POINT EARLY IN THE 2013-14 SEASON. MY METHOD GIVES HIM A 97 PERCENT CHANCE OF SETTING THE MARK, WHICH ESSENTIALLY MEANS THAT BARRING AN INJURY KOBE WILL HOLD THE RECORD. HIS CURRENT RATE IS 866 MISSES A SEASON AND HE’S ONLY 2,204 SHORT OF THE RECORD.


BRYANT MAY NOT OWN THIS ONE FOR LONG, HOWEVER, AS SEVERAL YOUNGER PLAYERS HAVE ESTABLISHED A SHOT TO RE-BREAK IT ONCE HE’S MOVED ON. LEBRON JAMES (33.3 PERCENT CHANCE TO SET RECORD), DURANT (23.8 PERCENT) AND CARMELO ANTHONY (23.7 PERCENT) ALL STAND A CHANCE TO SURPASS HAVLICEK IN THE LATER PARTS OF THEIR CAREERS.[/h3]

and this,
Buh' bye.

 

[CP1708]

So......he doesn't shoot the same % so everything else is now null and void?

 

[noblekane]

I assume that you are pretty active in sports discussions outside of Niketalk, and whether you realize it or did it or not, Kobe is a very polarizing figure. this is far from the first time I have seen someone question whether or not Kobe deserves his status in the basketball world. A thread dedicated to the discussion is LOOONG overdue.
And I'm enjoying this thread w/ my Kobe hating buddies? there's so much fail in that statement. like I already sarcastically address, anytime someone questions the status of another individual, it is presumed by that person's supporters he's being hated. Comical, but whatever. Second, this ain't even 'my' forum, and I haven't even been the most consistently active staff member in here for a few months; Meth has. So to say it's open and active because of me is also comical.

So are we allowed to create any Is _____ _______ overrated? threads as we please in this forum?

I been dying to create a tyson chandler is overrated thread....

 

[longstroke]

So......he doesn't shoot the same % so everything else is now null and void?

You take more shots than anyone else, if you hit a halfway decent percentage of them, sheer volume alone puts him over the top.

The guy is nothing more than a scorer. If he were more than that, the Lakers would not only be winning now, but would have won in the last year of PHIL.

Even Bynum could not wait not get off the court that year

, so he threw poor Barerra on his butt, in order to get away from Bryant and his constant whining. 

 

[thegoldenchild]

THIS guy! LOL! Look what people say on camera, and then off, are two entirely different things.

They do not like the man.

Of course, you cannot take away what he has done on court, just like you cannot take away what anyone else has done while on court. However, OFF court, people, even as some of the fans of Kobe have already mentioned, he is a complete butthole, in the different sense that Jordan was, because at least, he'd hang with the fella's.

Kobe, does not do that. 

In order to promote the NBA, the league, players who are considered marquee players, and Kobe is one of them, can;t go around bashing each other in public. They are schooled by none other than David Stern, to not do that. 

Do all of your talking against each other on the court.

But once the season is over...

Listen to what you're saying. That players say stuff on tv that is different than how they really feel about kobe. Who cares how kobe is off the court, so what if he's the biggest dhead ever. That still does not diminish his accomplishments on the court. Ehy eould a player say he's the best player and thwn turnaround and say something completely different? It makes them look foolish if they do. But it is not about their feelings towards it's about his skills on the court.

 

[longstroke]

Listen to what you're saying. That players say stuff on tv that is different than how they really feel about kobe. Who cares how kobe is off the court, so what if he's the biggest dhead ever. That still does not diminish his accomplishments on the court. Ehy eould a player say he's the best player and thwn turnaround and say something completely different? It makes them look foolish if they do. But it is not about their feelings towards it's about his skills on the court.

Only you would think that is makes them look foolish, but actually, it makes them SMART. It's called reverse psychology.

It works too!

 

[gllahone84]

Over or under on the 40+ he drops tonight in the Garden...albeit with a loss.

Over.