IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[ab doom]

Kobe is the last of a dying breed...he's the second greatest ever next to MJ the GOAT! Kobe confidence, will, work ethic and killer instinct is stuff of legend...plus he got 2 more rings out of 3 NBA Finals apperances with out Shaq!

 

[goldenchild9]

1)Jordan

2)Russell

3)Magic

4)Kareem

5)Bird

6)Wilt

7)Hakeem

Duncan

9)Shaq

10)LeBron

11)Oscar Robertson

12)Kobe Bryant

you may not personally agree but would you find it outlandish for someone to think that kobe is better than oscar robertson? lebron? shaq? 

How can he be better than a man that averaged a triple double when we have established that his ball hogging is a flaw?

How can he be better than Shaq when they were on the same team....and he wasn't better than Shaq?

How can he be better than LeBron when he's clearly not better than LeBron? Bron physically more imposing, higher PPG, quicker to 20K, higher FG %, much better passer, rebounder, can and does legit defend more positions on the floor, better leadership, etc?

 

[619destroyer858]

Michael Jeffrey Jordan and Kobe Bean Bryant should be 1 and 2 in any categories in NBA history,,you guys may NOT agree with me but thats the fact THE BEST PLAYER ever played the game

 

[sea manup]

 

 

1)Jordan

2)Russell

3)Magic

4)Kareem

5)Bird

6)Wilt

7)Hakeem

Duncan

9)Shaq

10)LeBron

11)Oscar Robertson

12)Kobe Bryant

you may not personally agree but would you find it outlandish for someone to think that kobe is better than oscar robertson? lebron? shaq? 

How can he be better than a man that averaged a triple double when we have established that his ball hogging is a flaw? he can he be better than Shaq when they were on the same team....and he wasn't better than Shaq? How can he be better than LeBron when he's clearly not better than LeBron?

with the logic of your first sentence, how can anyone be better than a man who averaged 50 points a game through an entire season? wilt should be #1 on your list right?

of course he wasnt better than shaq when shaq was in his prime and he was still a 21 year old kid, however near the end of their partnership he put up numbers that were comparable to shaqs and after shaq left he continued to play at a high level for another 10 seasons while winning more championships than shaq

what makes lebron clearly better than kobe? 

 

[darthska]

I don't know why missed FG's matter now when no one even knew that John Havlicek had the record two weeks ago, but I ask

When a player tears a ligament in his shooting wrist, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

When a player breaks a finger, on his shooting hand, and plays thru that, does it affect his game?

When he tears a tendon on yet a different finger, on his shooting hand, in a different year, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

Yes, it does affect his shot.

Fortunately for basketball, shooting is not the ONLY way to contribute. 

Kobe's sort of aware of that, but Kobe fans are hardly aware of that, presenting cases based on an apparent understanding that it's ok for him to miss shots because that's the only thing possible.

After all, he is a SHOOTING guard, as has been pointed out to me. Not a rebounding guard. Not a passing guard. Shooting guard. So if he misses shots because of injury, or age, or youth, or triple teams, no biggie. No other option than to shoot, and all shots he has shot have been well thought out and he tried as hard as he could to make it, considering that's the only option he had.

 

[sea manup]

 

I don't know why missed FG's matter now when no one even knew that John Havlicek had the record two weeks ago, but I ask

When a player tears a ligament in his shooting wrist, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

When a player breaks a finger, on his shooting hand, and plays thru that, does it affect his game?

When he tears a tendon on yet a different finger, on his shooting hand, in a different year, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

Yes, it does affect his shot.

Fortunately for basketball, shooting is not the ONLY way to contribute. 

Kobe's sort of aware of that, but Kobe fans are hardly aware of that, presenting cases based on an apparent understanding that it's ok for him to miss shots because that's the only thing possible.

After all, he is a SHOOTING guard, as has been pointed out to me. Not a rebounding guard. Not a passing guard. Shooting guard. So if he misses shots because of injury, or age, or youth, or triple teams, no biggie. No other option than to shoot, and all shots he has shot have been well thought out and he tried as hard as he could to make it, considering that's the only option he had.

to be fair if i had a busted up finger i probably wouldnt want to be high fiving teammates and reinjuring myself, so its not just scoring it effects his ability to be a good teammate too

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

srsly not srs

 

[CP1708]

I don't know why missed FG's matter now when no one even knew that John Havlicek had the record two weeks ago, but I ask


When a player tears a ligament in his shooting wrist, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?


When a player breaks a finger, on his shooting hand, and plays thru that, does it affect his game?


When he tears a tendon on yet a different finger, on his shooting hand, in a different year, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

Yes, it does affect his shot.

Fortunately for basketball, shooting is not the ONLY way to contribute. 

Kobe's sort of aware of that, but Kobe fans are hardly aware of that, presenting cases based on an apparent understanding that it's ok for him to miss shots because that's the only thing possible.

After all, he is a SHOOTING guard, as has been pointed out to me. Not a rebounding guard. Not a passing guard. Shooting guard. So if he misses shots because of injury, or age, or youth, or triple teams, no biggie. No other option than to shoot, and all shots he has shot have been well thought out and he tried as hard as he could to make it, considering that's the only option he had.

Pretty sure I've pointed out, he's added 5 boards, and assists, per game, over 15 years, on top of great defense for about 11 of those, while playing 38-40+ minutes a night, even while injured, sometimes playing the PG, SG, and SF positions based on coach expectations.

While injured.


I'd say, a missed shot here or there can be understood a little easier, no?

I mean, I prefer him out there, maxing effort, doing whatever he can, not worried about some sacred shooting percentage than a "well, I hurt my finger on company time, so I'll take company time off, good luck the next two months coach".

Am I crazy?

 

[darthska]

 

[sb]

I don't know why missed FG's matter now when no one even knew that John Havlicek had the record two weeks ago, but I ask

When a player tears a ligament in his shooting wrist, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

When a player breaks a finger, on his shooting hand, and plays thru that, does it affect his game?

When he tears a tendon on yet a different finger, on his shooting hand, in a different year, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?



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View media item 1266234

Cuz I wonder, if I had broken **** on my shooting hand, I would have a hard time getting the ball to go in the basket too. Especially when the best defenders on every team, every night, are guarding me. I would find that tough.

Thing is, he doesn't care. He doesn't care if he misses, he doesn't care if it affects his stats, doesn't care about any of that, he just goes out and plays. Numbers be damned.


So do we now discredit him for missing those shots? Would we discredit him for sitting out weeks/months to get those injuries repaired, so he could "shoot better" for everyone?

*shrugs*


Like I said, 99-13, 15 years, his shooting percentage was 46%. With a billion injuries he's played thru, and ANY NBA fan would tell you they've seen him do it. Even hating *** ************* would cop to that.

The man tore his ******* achilles, and came out to shoot the free throws anyway, after he tried to literally pull up his achilles with his bare hands.


Last year in his 6th game, he broke his knee cap in the first half. He finished the game. Folks, he finished the game, with that broken kneecap, and won, on the road. He played the second half of an NBA game, defended by the Memphis Grizzlies, with a broken kneecap.


But I know the majority of you fellas will wave off those injuries, and say that everyone plays thru them.

They just don't average 27/5/5 over 15 years doing so, do they?

 

[darthska]

 

 

I don't know why missed FG's matter now when no one even knew that John Havlicek had the record two weeks ago, but I ask


When a player tears a ligament in his shooting wrist, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?


When a player breaks a finger, on his shooting hand, and plays thru that, does it affect his game?


When he tears a tendon on yet a different finger, on his shooting hand, in a different year, and plays thru it, does it affect his game?

Yes, it does affect his shot.

Fortunately for basketball, shooting is not the ONLY way to contribute. 

Kobe's sort of aware of that, but Kobe fans are hardly aware of that, presenting cases based on an apparent understanding that it's ok for him to miss shots because that's the only thing possible.

After all, he is a SHOOTING guard, as has been pointed out to me. Not a rebounding guard. Not a passing guard. Shooting guard. So if he misses shots because of injury, or age, or youth, or triple teams, no biggie. No other option than to shoot, and all shots he has shot have been well thought out and he tried as hard as he could to make it, considering that's the only option he had.

Pretty sure I've pointed out, he's added 5 boards, and assists, per game, over 15 years, on top of great defense for about 11 of those, while playing 38-40+ minutes a night, even while injured, sometimes playing the PG, SG, and SF positions based on coach expectations.

While injured.


I'd say, a missed shot here or there can be understood a little easier, no?

I mean, I prefer him out there, maxing effort, doing whatever he can, not worried about some sacred shooting percentage than a "well, I hurt my finger on company time, so I'll take company time off, good luck the next two months coach".

Am I crazy?

Yes, you mentioned that.

My response was in response to something else you said, that he was injured. And other people have mentioned his age. Still others have mentioned some of the careless shots in his youth.

His rebounding and assist numbers have nothing to do with the topic of ill-advised shots, and why they were taken.

Now if I were to say that he takes ill-advised shots and injury should not be an excuse for ill-advised shots AND he's a terrible rebounder, rebounding numbers would be a fitting response.

But I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that injury is no excuse for ill-advised shots. And neither is age. Or youth. There is no excuse for habitually taking ill-advised shots, because in every case of an ill-advised shot, there was another option.

 

[goldenchild9]

 

 

1)Jordan


2)Russell


3)Magic


4)Kareem


5)Bird


6)Wilt


7)Hakeem


Duncan


9)Shaq


10)LeBron


11)Oscar Robertson


12)Kobe Bryant

you may not personally agree but would you find it outlandish for someone to think that kobe is better than oscar robertson? lebron? shaq? 

How can he be better than a man that averaged a triple double when we have established that his ball hogging is a flaw? he can he be better than Shaq when they were on the same team....and he wasn't better than Shaq? How can he be better than LeBron when he's clearly not better than LeBron?

with the logic of your first sentence, how can anyone be better than a man who averaged 50 points a game through an entire season? wilt should be #1 on your list right?

of course he wasnt better than shaq when shaq was in his prime and he was still a 21 year old kid, however near the end of their partnership he put up numbers that were comparable to shaqs and after shaq left he continued to play at a high level for another 10 seasons while winning more championships than shaq

what makes lebron clearly better than kobe? 

No. That might make him the best scorer of all time but not the greatest player. Greatness as a player encompasses all facets of the game and how those talents translate to team success, not just scoring.

Shaq's prime > Kobe's prime. Straight up. Put him on Kobe's teams that failed to make the playoffs and they would make the playoffs. His presence and skill were too supreme. 24 pts on 56% shooting, 14 rounds and 3.5 blocks as a rookie?! Going to the Finals with Orlando in third season. His total domination in LA that forced the league office to change the rules of the game. Winning a chip in Miami in his second season there. His numbers were godly, he crushed defenses simply by stepping on the floor, he changed the game, he could take any good wing player to the promised land. He was simply a greater player than Kobe.

And I explained Bron in the previous post.

 

[CP1708]

Ahhh, ok, I follow now.

You respect Phil?

Because Phil allowed those "ill advised" shots.

Phil even mentioned how difficult it is in the NBA to get a shot off.

Phil also called plays for a lot of those shots.

You find that interesting, your views on "good" shots, vs Phil Jackson's?

 

[dmxfury]

Not sure if pointed out but .45 to .495 is a 10% difference...not 5%

 

[storm2006]

Not sure if pointed out but .45 to .495 is a 10% difference...not 5%

But these dudes are good at math, though...

 

[sea manup]

Not sure if pointed out but .45 to .495 is a 10% difference...not 5%

depends on how you word it, 10% more made shots or making 5% more of the total shots taken

 

[darthska]

Ahhh, ok, I follow now.

You respect Phil?

Because Phil allowed those "ill advised" shots.

Phil even mentioned how difficult it is in the NBA to get a shot off.

Phil also called plays for a lot of those shots.

You find that interesting, your views on "good" shots, vs Phil Jackson's?

I don't believe for 2 seconds Phil called for a triple team corner 3.

Or anything even remotely similar.

I think one would have to be incredibly naive to think that anything similar to this took place:
"Alright, Kwame, inbound to Smush, Smush dribbles in to the FT line extended, Cook should be set up next to Kobe, and once the ball swings to Kobe, this should have attracted every Maverick over to Kobe's side, which is exactly what we want. From there, Kobe, you shoot, and Kwame, Smush, you crash. IF HE MISSES... which he won't... you give it right back to him, and this time, he'll fadeaway. Bucket."

 

[CP1708]

Ahhh, ok, I follow now.


You respect Phil?


Because Phil allowed those "ill advised" shots.


Phil even mentioned how difficult it is in the NBA to get a shot off.


Phil also called plays for a lot of those shots.


You find that interesting, your views on "good" shots, vs Phil Jackson's?

I don't believe for 2 seconds Phil called for a triple team corner 3.

Or anything even remotely similar.

I think one would have to be incredibly naive to think that anything similar to this took place:

"Alright, Kwame, inbound to Smush, Smush dribbles in to the FT line extended, Cook should be set up next to Kobe, and once the ball swings to Kobe, this should have attracted every Maverick over to Kobe's side, which is exactly what we want. From there, Kobe, you shoot, and Kwame, Smush, you crash. IF HE MISSES... which he won't... you give it right back to him, and this time, he'll fadeaway. Bucket."

Well, surely he hopes there aren't 3 defenders on him when he calls the shot, but again, he can't dictate what the defense will or won't do.

He calls for Kobe to be __ here, and shoot. The defense, set by the other coach, decides whether they want to send 1-2-3 or 4 guys at Kobe.


I'll ask another way.

Would YOU prefer Kobe to shoot a 3 from 25 feet out, over 2 defenders, but with space, squared up, not anything twisting or anything, just a straight up shot over 2 guys, 25 feet

Or pass it to Kwame who is 6 feet away?

Who would YOU prefer to shoot in that situation?

 

[essential1]

Other greats had more balanced all around games than him.

27/5.5/5 and great defense for most of his 15 year window, isn't all around? What are you doing right now?

WHO SAID THIS?!

Stop twisting words and making stupid inferences man.

How many times do I have to say he's a great player but others are greater? No one is saying he is trash, we are talking about the best of the best here.

But I'll take Hakeem's 22/11/3/3/2 any day over Kobe's numbers

That says something about his efficiency in comparison to others.

MJ .497%
Kobe .453%

Something like 1-2 more misses per game, Kobe than Jordan.

Really dampens his career I guess......

When you're taking shots at the clip of MJ and Kobe, 5% FG%age difference is huge. You made the same case with Iverson vs Kobe...so don't try to flip it now.

He reached the most missed shots record in 19 fewer games than Havlicek (8X Champ, 13X All-Star, 21/6/5 in his own right).

We've established he's great...STOP DANCING AROUND HIS FLAWS.

True Shooting %
Jordan - .569
Kobe - .554
Iverson - .518

 

[CP1708]

GOD DAMN IT E, I WAS COMING WITH TS%



FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

 

[CP1708]

Not sure if pointed out but .45 to .495 is a 10% difference...not 5%

I'll do you even one better.....

TS%: True Shooting Percentage - what a player's shooting percentage would be if we accounted for free throws and 3-pointers. True Shooting Percentage = Total points / [(FGA + (0.44 x FTA)]

Advanced math/stats.

MJ .569
Kobe .554

Kobe is a better 3 point shooter than MJ, more range, etc, and therefore he will suffer from a percentage point shooting from farther away, but will reap a bigger benefit on makes 3 instead of 2. Etc.

Screw you E.

 

[dmxfury]

So what are you guys debating at this point? The OP said Kobe was top 12...I haven't seen anyone put him further back than that. So what are these Kobe stats supposed to prove?

 

[CP1708]

So what are you guys debating at this point? The OP said Kobe was top 12...I haven't seen anyone put him further back than that. So what are these Kobe stats supposed to prove?

I have no idea, I'm just talkin ball with some of these guys now.

Points/counterpoints, etc.


Once I found out dude had him at 12, I was pissed I wasted any time saying anything at all.

 

[dmxfury]

 

[essential1]

GOD DAMN IT E, I WAS COMING WITH TS%



FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

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[CP1708]

Our OP was gracious enough to open an Elgin Baylor thread a lil bit ago.

I wonder........

Will anyone bring up Baylor's .431 shooting percentage, or the fact that he AVERAGED 23.8 shots per game, for his 14 year career?

Or that at age 27, he averaged 33.1 shots per game, making 14.2, for a total of .428%.

Or that he won rookie of the year, shooting .408 on 8.6/21.2 per game.

Or that he had 2 seasons (out of 14) in which he shot at least 45%



Wonder if our boys on NT will fight as hard to knock those shooting percentages like they do for other players.