IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[sea manup]

Not sure where you're going w/ this, but Phil + Pip + shooters = 6 Finals w/ 6 FMVPs, and no Finals losses.

so according to you a pretty good formula for success is for a great player to play with "Phil + a dominant complimentary teammate + shooters". i think most people would agree on that

you said that take any of the guys you listed, plug them in the formula and they would get at least 5 championships in 7 tries

would it not follow that if you took any of the guys you listed, plugged them into the same formula (i think we can all agree that pip was a "dominant complimentary teammate" and the bulls had shooters) they would get at least 4 championships out of 6 tries

if you are going to simplify a players career into something like "anyone with X Y and Z could have done what he did" i expect you to be consistent in that logic when looking at other players careers

so do you think that replacing MJ with paul pierce in the 90s would have resulted in at least 4 bulls championships? 

unrelated to all that above but you say "no finals losses" like its a great accomplishment. all else being equal, what's a better career: a player going to the finals 6 times and winning 4 times or a player going 4 times and winning 4 times? 

 

[Brownstone]

Kobe is the most talented/hungry/intelligent player of my generation.

With all that said, he isn't touching Jordan.....

I can only speak on player's I have seen

MJ

Kobe

Duncan 

KG

Tmac

 

[denni5themenace]

this topic is completely subjective, but its always funny to me how people from both sides frame their arguments. all the stretches and concessions made to fit their argument

 

[Deleted member 37467]

Kobe is the most talented/hungry/intelligent player of my generation.

 

[iamjusayn]

Yes and has been for a while now!

 

[fontaine]

In regards to pure talent... I think Vince carter has Kobe beat...

Kobe was just a really hard worker and had a great mind to want to be great.

Kobe's work ethic and passion + Vince Carter's ability = a better player than Michael Jordan

#comeatmebros

 

[noblekane]

In regards to pure talent... I think Vince carter has Kobe beat...

View media item 1265703

 

[Deleted member 37467]

How is pure talent even measured, tho.

Most great players are talented,

What makes Kobe more talented than someone like AI or T Mac?

Nash's work ethic is probably just as great as Kobe's, and don't even get me started on the intelligence thing.

Kobe is definitely smart but I swear some of the decisions he makes are awful.

In terms of basketball IQ and decision making I'd probably go w/ Kidd, but if you wanna give Kobe all 3 of those categories then so be it,

 

[fontaine]

How is pure talent even measured, tho.

Most great players are talented,

What makes Kobe more talented than someone like AI or T Mac?

Nash's work ethic is probably just as great as Kobe's, and don't even get me started on the intelligence thing.

Kobe is definitely smart but I swear some of the decisions he makes are awful.

In terms of basketball IQ and decision making I'd probably go w/ Kidd, but if you wanna give Kobe all 3 of those categories then so be it,

I

Measuring talent is completely subjective bruh.

Just like saying who's the greatest, overrated, etc.

 

[phuzzy badpheet]

As a pure volume shooter, no, he isn't overrated.

He is the greatest we've ever seen. I know that he is the best I've ever seen, and is the best of his generation. He is better than Wilt, MJ, Oscar, even Pistol Pete, George Gervin, nobody misses as many shots as one Kobe Bean Bryant.

In fact, after this season, he may even be underrated.

I don't think that anyone here could ever deny this, or suggest that anyone is even remotely over exaggerating here.

Kobe, numero uno.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

It's not COMPLETELY subjective, tho.

There are ways to measure it, it just gets almost pointless when talking about star players, tho, IMO.

I'm sure we can all agree that someone like DeMarcus Cousins has more inate ability than a Nick Collison,

 

[seasoned vet]

Kobe is definitely smart but I swear some of the decisions he makes are awful.

downright AWFUL.

ftr, Seasoned Vet said these exact things about Voldemort for YEARS and they called me crazy

*Birdman hand rubs all through this thread*

Ska is a REAL Laker fan
as a REAL Laker fan would HATE Kobe for what he did to their team

5 championships is nothing when you think on what he....THEY could have accomplished if Voldermort learned to be a team player early in his career

what a waste.

they should do a 30 for 30 on how his selfish attitude hurt his career

 

[Deleted member 37467]

Voldemort

Here's the most intelligent basketball player of our generation, folks:

 

[dman14]

one of the most competitive player to ever play
blessed with great coach, prime shaq and solid teammates, and extreme talent

i think there were guys during his period that held their own with him (particularly wade), but kobe has them with his longevity.

 

[CP1708]

I know this place isn’t for me, and not to ruin anyone’s fun, but just to add actual facts to the discussion, let me leave these here.

Scrub away what Kobe did off the bench as a teenager, and last year (6 games) and this year, and just view Kobe’s career from the day he became a starter, to the day he tore his Achilles, you have 15 years to view.

From 1999 to 2013, 15 full seasons, as a starter, Kobe’s numbers look like this……

In 1,089 GMS
27.4 PPG
5.7 RPG
5.1 APG

In 200 Playoff GMS
27.3 PPG
5.4 RPG
5.1 APG

Shooting?
46% FG%
36% 3%
84% FT%

For 15 seasons. 27/5.5/5. On 46/36/84 percent.

MJ, gave us 11 total seasons, not including Wizards and 18 game broken ankle year and final month comeback year. 11 full seasons as “MJ”
Bron is still 3 years away from 15 years, but pretty clear he will get there, and he will be in 27/6/6 range himself.
Jerry West gave 14 years like that, so he can be considered as likely to have gotten a 15th in there.

Those 2 are it, in terms of comparisons for Kobe. 27/5/5 for a 15 year career is not done, by anyone else, with MJ West, and LeBron being the obvious (would/will be matches)

Factoring in all games played, everything, rookie 18 year old Kobe off the bench, 6 games last year injured Kobe, 36 year old gunner Kobe today, everything, all totaled, combined playoff and regular season, he’s at 1,475 games played, his averages?

25.5 PPG
5.2 RPG
4.7 APG

19 years.

Slice it however you want to slice it, the NBA is almost 70 years old. There are tens of thousands of NBA players in history. There are not more than 2-3 guys in the entire world that have matched that 15 year stretch, ever. The 3 allowable comparisons, are MJ, West and LeBron.

That doesn’t mean Kobe is the 4th greatest of all time, or any of that. Certainly there are a couple Centers that want in on that action. I’m not even using stuff like All NBA voting, or Titles, or anything else, just he, himself, on the floor, like every other player that has played before him, no one else is matching that 15 year stretch. Not Paul Pierce, not Jason Kidd, not Ray Allen, not AI, not Vince, not TMac, not Wade, not Nique, none of them.

When it’s done and said, everything added up, sliced and divided however you want, Kobe has had one of the 7-10 greatest careers in NBA history, not even counting anything vote related (popularity contests) or Team related, just sheer on the court production. He’s easily had one of the best careers in NBA History. So if that’s overrated, then you better have an amazing resume to provide ahead of this one. And after MJ, Bron, and West, you’re gonna have a hard time.

 

[black leg]

I nowhere near like Kobe, but I wouldn't dare sit here and undermined the career he's had, top 5 for sure just statistically speaking.

 

[seasoned vet]

LOL @ 'scrub away'

jesus man.

listen to yourself

 

[CP1708]

LOL @ 'scrub away'

jesus man.

listen to yourself

I gave you both.

Every game he's ever played.

And every game he played as a starter. It's all there. Sorry the numbers hurt you.

 

[hometownhero]

Kobe Hate Thread

Everyone who has an opinion has made up his mind a long time ago about Kobe. 

Dude is first ballot hall of famer, whether you rock with him or not. 

 

[cashbanks]

I know this place isn’t for me, and not to ruin anyone’s fun, but just to add actual facts to the discussion, let me leave these here.

Scrub away what Kobe did off the bench as a teenager, and last year (6 games) and this year, and just view Kobe’s career from the day he became a starter, to the day he tore his Achilles, you have 15 years to view.

From 1999 to 2013, 15 full seasons, as a starter, Kobe’s numbers look like this……

In 1,089 GMS
27.4 PPG
5.7 RPG
5.1 APG

In 200 Playoff GMS
27.3 PPG
5.4 RPG
5.1 APG

Shooting?
46% FG%
36% 3%
84% FT%

For 15 seasons. 27/5.5/5. On 46/36/84 percent.

MJ, gave us 11 total seasons, not including Wizards and 18 game broken ankle year and final month comeback year. 11 full seasons as “MJ”
Bron is still 3 years away from 15 years, but pretty clear he will get there, and he will be in 27/6/6 range himself.
Jerry West gave 14 years like that, so he can be considered as likely to have gotten a 15th in there.

Those 2 are it, in terms of comparisons for Kobe. 27/5/5 for a 15 year career is not done, by anyone else, with MJ West, and LeBron being the obvious (would/will be matches)

Factoring in all games played, everything, rookie 18 year old Kobe off the bench, 6 games last year injured Kobe, 36 year old gunner Kobe today, everything, all totaled, combined playoff and regular season, he’s at 1,475 games played, his averages?

25.5 PPG
5.2 RPG
4.7 APG

19 years.

Slice it however you want to slice it, the NBA is almost 70 years old. There are tens of thousands of NBA players in history. There are not more than 2-3 guys in the entire world that have matched that 15 year stretch, ever. The 3 allowable comparisons, are MJ, West and LeBron.

That doesn’t mean Kobe is the 4th greatest of all time, or any of that. Certainly there are a couple Centers that want in on that action. I’m not even using stuff like All NBA voting, or Titles, or anything else, just he, himself, on the floor, like every other player that has played before him, no one else is matching that 15 year stretch. Not Paul Pierce, not Jason Kidd, not Ray Allen, not AI, not Vince, not TMac, not Wade, not Nique, none of them.

When it’s done and said, everything added up, sliced and divided however you want, Kobe has had one of the 7-10 greatest careers in NBA history, not even counting anything vote related (popularity contests) or Team related, just sheer on the court production. He’s easily had one of the best careers in NBA History. So if that’s overrated, then you better have an amazing resume to provide ahead of this one. And after MJ, Bron, and West, you’re gonna have a hard time.

View media item 581783

 

[cashbanks]

I've got Kobe ahead of Duncan.

Duncan has had the same hall of fame coach and all star teammates for most of his career.

and kobe has won more head to head in the playoffs

 

[essential1]

Shout-out to Henry Albott. Expose Kobe before the season started.

Pure facts in that ESPN article.

Except for the Ramon Session part. Where he opted out to get a long term deal from the Lakers who didn't even offer him one.

Ignored Dwight Howard mocking Kobe in the locker room behind Kobe's back, and his teammates went to Kobe about it. Just like Shaq a decade before it wasn't just Kobe.

Paul George part was absolutely pointless. Only one guy has turned down a rookie extension (Greg Monroe). He didn't accept it simply to stay away from LA because that's idiotic. He could have not accepted the extension to try his luck elsewhere for ANY team.

The Steve Nash story is rather irrelevant of who called the other first because he still joined the team which means he obviously liked what Kobe had to say.

So when you base your claims on things like that, your credibility for the rest of the article, some of which is plausible comes into question

 

[krazyrodzilla]

Kobe ran off Phil Jackson not once but twice. Ran off Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Horry, Fisher, Odom, etc. Thats not Duncan's fault that Kobe is a horrible teammate.

Shaq got the better of Duncan in head2head match up. Kobe was a role player early 00s.

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[essential1]

I've got Kobe ahead of Duncan.

Duncan has had the same hall of fame coach and all star teammates for most of his career.

and kobe has won more head to head in the playoffs

Kobe ran off Phil Jackson not once but twice. Ran off Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Horry, Fisher, Odom, etc. Thats not Duncan's fault that Kobe is a horrible teammate.

Shaq got the better of Duncan in head2head match up. Kobe was a role player early 00s.

He didn't run off Horry. Just

Fisher, Odom, Bynum were all traded

Gasol left because it was time for him to go. Kobe actually was the one who always came to bat for him. He kept publicly coming out to Gasol's defense and telling the media he will be pissed if he got traded.

The whole damn Shaq / Kobe drama pushed Phil out the first time. And it started from Dr. Buss to Jim Buss all the way down to Kobe. And you really have no idea why Phil left the second time. He left because of medical reasons.


2000 Playoffs: 21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4
2001 Playoffs: 29.4 / 7.3 / 6.1
2002 Playoffs: 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6
2003 Playoffs: 32.1 / 5.1 / 5.2

Against the Spurs:
2001 Playoffs 33.3 / 7 / 7 on 51.4%
2002 Playoffs 26.6 / 5.4 / 4.8 on 45.5%
2003 Playoffs 32.3 / 5.0 / 3.7 on 43.8%

 

[essential1]

Except for the Ramon Session part. Where he opted out to get a long term deal from the Lakers who didn't even offer him one.

Ignored Dwight Howard mocking Kobe in the locker room behind Kobe's back, and his teammates went to Kobe about it. Just like Shaq a decade before it wasn't just Kobe.

Paul George part was absolutely pointless. Only one guy has turned down a rookie extension (Greg Monroe). He didn't accept it simply to stay away from LA because that's idiotic. He could have not accepted the extension to try his luck elsewhere for ANY team.

The Steve Nash story is rather irrelevant of who called the other first because he still joined the team which means he obviously liked what Kobe had to say.

So when you base your claims on things like that, your credibility for the rest of the article, some of which is plausible comes into question

What teammates have had Kobe's back? Not one player stood up for him when Abbott wrote the piece. Need proof of this.

Steve Nash just wanted the money. Nash wasn't lying when he said he couldn't see himself playing for the lakers. Nash help the Suns out and got payed for not playing. Win-Win.

The Raptors & Knicks offered Nash more.

"The Toronto Raptors have offered free agent point guard Steve Nash a three-year, $36 million"

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8...-offer-steve-nash-3-year-36m-deal-sources-say

All about the money huh?

Ramon Sessions: Lakers departure nothing to do with Kobe Bryant http://t.co/zgS1TJiTpH
— Mark Medina (@MarkG_Medina) October 28, 2014

Now how crazy does that Kobe story sound to you ? #MediaReachingAgain
— Paul George (@Yg_Trece) October 20, 2014

And this gem

“@flea333: henry abbott your @espn kobe article is absolute garbage and a blatant irresponsible attack. "Go get'em, Flea
— Phil Jackson (@PhilJackson11) October 21, 2014