IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[seasoned vet]

people are entitled to their own opinions, they're not entitled to their own facts.

they could have contended for 3 years, etc etc and traded Shaq LATER, is wrong, it's flat out, wrong 

....in your clouded biased opinion.

FACT is MIA went straight to the ECF Finals the year they got Shaq. 2 plays away from getting to the NBA Finals. thats says alot about a team that had little time to bond and establish a good chemistry.

which in turn says alot about if Shaq had stayed on LA where chemistry was already established. so there's your 2 years.



FACT is the Center position in the NBA has been severely lacking for years. and while Shaq's production steadily decreased his presence on the floor still commanded double teams opening the floor for other players.

so while he wasnt putting up numbers of his yesteryear, he didnt have to with Kobe Bryant on his team and him still commanding double teams.

and there's your 3 years and beyond.

its very hard to compare a contender being broken up vs what those players did on seperate teams after the breakup because of rebuilding and chemistry issues.

 

[CP1708]

More facts. Reaching the conference finals in the East was a lot different than doing so in the West.

So while you speak of the chemistry and what not and do indeed have a valid point there, the ease with which you can reach your goal is also easier.

Another fact is we have not yet delved into that 2006 title that Miami did win. I assume you guys have heard about it.

So while yes, technically the Heat did get 2 years out of the deal, the bottom line is this. Shaq IN LA was NOT playing everyday, he was gaining in size, he was NOT working his *** off at the level he did in say 2000. He was not motivated after his 3 rings.

Traded Shaq, that Shaq was MOTIVATED. Now, you made a great point on chemistry and what not, don't you dare tell me that motivation would no longer be a valid point or is imaginary or whatever. Bottom line, Shaq was HUNGRY to prove LA wrong, and show he had something left.

Can you ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE he works that hard in LA if we give him an extension? After what we had seen from him the previous 2-3 years?

It's funny, I'm supposedly the emotional one involved, yet all you Kobe haters are absolutely begging the Lakers to go back and keep Shaq/Kobe together.

Why?

So you can hold onto your notion that Kobe couldn't lead a team? So you could call him Robin (Deuce term) for his whole career? Why do you people care if Shaq and Kobe lasted another 3 years? I'm more than sure that the Lakers survived and did well for themselves, the team reached 5 titles in a ten year span, why all this begging and pleading fo them to stay together NOW, 8-9 years later?

Hell, LAKER fans have moved on and are fine with how things turned out in the end, we endured the pain of being terrible for 3 whole seasons. We love what Shaq brought, we cheered like crazy last night for him, thanked him, we're all good.

But you all, you all seem so desperate for him to have stayed. I find that odd. It wouldn't have anything to do with you all thinking LA was dead and then proven wrong, would it? So it must be something else, right? Just wanted to see Shaq and Kobe hug it out or something? Got all warm and fuzzy about them suddenly?

 

[darthska]

Saying "There's no way we would have won 2 more if we kept Shaq" is an opinion.

"Oh, so we would have won 2... or MORE... even though he only went on to win 1 more?"

That's a fair point up in suggesting that we wouldn't have won 2+ if we kept Shaq, but it's still discussing an opinion.

 

[CP1708]

Saying "There's no way we would have won 2 more if we kept Shaq" is an opinion.

"Oh, so we would have won 2... or MORE... even though he only went on to win 1 more?"

That's a fair point up in suggesting that we wouldn't have won 2+ if we kept Shaq, but it's still discussing an opinion.

Fair enough, my bad if I implied it as a fact. I believe it to be so, the evidence would suggest it to be that way, but technically they are not indeed facts, my bad on the way I worded my previous post. That's on me.

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

View media item 346289

 

[nako xl]

Saying "There's no way we would have won 2 more if we kept Shaq" is an opinion.

"Oh, so we would have won 2... or MORE... even though he only went on to win 1 more?"

That's a fair point up in suggesting that we wouldn't have won 2+ if we kept Shaq, but it's still discussing an opinion.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that without game fixing Shaq may never have even seen that 4th championship and this discussion suddenly leans a lot more in a different direction.
unrelated point: does bad grammar in memes annoy any of you as much as it does me?  it's like a weird pet peeve i've noticed over the years.

 

[CP1708]

Nako, I did mention it last page, but I didn't want to focus on it. Just let them think about it. But the end result was and is done, Miami won in 06.

Another fact is we have not yet delved into that 2006 title that Miami did win. I assume you guys have heard about it.

 

[quik1987]

Funny how Lakers fans ignore the kings series fixing

But when bringing up the heat they have no problem

 

[lugaw87]

Funny how Lakers fans ignore the kings series fixing

But when bringing up the heat they have no problem

Very true im a kobe fan and the kings shouldve won that series.lakers should be thanking the refs david stern wanted the lakers to win.

 

[darthska]

OK, on the topic of post-Kobe+Shaq championships vs. if they stayed together, me personally, I could see us winning another one if Shaq had stayed, and I also see Kobe being the FMVP, just as Wade was. I could see us winning another even, but w/ Kobe as FMVP again.

"HOW, ska?! Shaq was DONNEEE!!!"

He wouldn't be MDE Shaq from early 2000s. I could see Mitch & Co building around 'Kobe + still-productive-but-no-longer-dominant Shaq.' I mean, David Robinson ABSOLUTELY helped the Spurs w/ those first 2, and anyone who says he was just along for the ride is flat out wrong. Was he 70 points David Robinson? HAYL no. Quadruple double David? Not even close; those days were long gone... but he was effective enough for Twin Towers to be a force... twice.

I could see Phil working out a different team dynamic that no longer starts w/ pounding the ball inside. It ain't like having a team w/ 'good enough' inside play and strong perimeter play is foreign to him; that's exactly how he got his first 6 as a coach.

 

[darthska]

Funny how Lakers fans ignore the kings series fixing

But when bringing up the heat they have no problem

No, we don't ignore it. We post facts about it.

Like the games in that series where the Kings had more FTs than us... DESPITE the fact that they would intentionally foul Shaq at the end of the game. Still ended up with more freebies.

Or the fact that the rim closed up for them in crunch time on SEVERAL occasions. Must have been the refs.

I know you've had this discussion w/ others before, though, because I remember. You ignored the response then just like you'll ignore my response now, and then bring it up at a later time when me or CP aren't around.

Now THAT'S trolling.

 

[lugaw87]

Ska this is facts refs helped the lakers win that series against kings ask tim donaughy

 

[seasoned vet]

....my man Ska, ALWAYS comes through with the unbiased level headed viewpoint.

what you just wrote is exactly why i always say a real Laker fan should hate Kobe. we only got to see 50-60% of what Shaq and Kobe could do all because upper management refused to check the ego of a self absorbed kid.

 

[darthska]

Mister Friendly, ohmygosher, JumpmanFromDaBay: this thread is not about what you guys think of each other.

Thanks.

Like I've said before, if you have nothing to contribute to the thread... any thread... it's entirely acceptable to just... not post. Totally ok. Promise.

 

[ohmygosher]

Ska, I didn't post anything like that. He did. I responded to the meme by saying it wasn't funny.

 

[darthska]

^ We're all past the finger pointing, "He started it" stage, aren't we? I didn't warn anyone or anything. Just a friendly reminder that the conversation doesn't need to be about each other.

Moving on...

what you just wrote is exactly why i always say a real Laker fan should hate Kobe. we only got to see 50-60% of what Shaq and Kobe could do all because upper management refused to check the ego of a self absorbed kid.

I think the correct thing for upper management to have done is what cartune mentioned a few days ago (I think): they should have sat both of them down... AS MANY TIMES AS IT TOOK TO GET THROUGH THEIR SELF-ABSORBED SKULLS... and told them to get right.

Not 'Get right or we'll trade you', because it seems like that's exactly what they both wanted to hear, even if only Shaq heard it.

"You two clowns aren't going anywhere. Neal with it. Go win. Earn those bajillions of dollars we're paying you and stop trying to make the other guy the bad guy. You're both immature... and really good at basketball. Get the hell outta here and go practice."

I understand management did that a few times, but I also understand there was an air of "You two work it out or we'll have to trade one of you" in every 'closed door' attempt.

BUMP that.

 

[quik1987]

Just posting this in here for reference

I'm on my phone so I'll examine and go deeper later

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=3436401&src=desktop

 

[seasoned vet]

^ We're all past the finger pointing, "He started it" stage, aren't we? I didn't warn anyone or anything. Just a friendly reminder that the conversation doesn't need to be about each other.

Moving on...
I think the correct thing for upper management to have done is what cartune mentioned a few days ago (I think): they should have sat both of them down... AS MANY TIMES AS IT TOOK TO GET THROUGH THEIR SELF-ABSORBED SKULLS... and told them to get right.

Not 'Get right or we'll trade you', because it seems like that's exactly what they both wanted to hear, even if only Shaq heard it.

"You two clowns aren't going anywhere. Neal with it. Go win. Earn those bajillions of dollars we're paying you and stop trying to make the other guy the bad guy. You're both immature... and really good at basketball. Get the hell outta here and go practice."

I understand management did that a few times, but I also understand there was an air of "You two work it out or we'll have to trade one of you" in every 'closed door' attempt.

BUMP that.

tips hat.

that team had the potential to be the greatest EVER.

PERIOD.

as a Laker fan i hated to see where that team was headed

 

[nako xl]

Funny how Lakers fans ignore the kings series fixing

But when bringing up the heat they have no problem

Yes, I am a Lakers fan. 

SPLENDID point.  The Kings were robbed!!!

How does this change the discussion about Shaq, post-Lakers, though?  You're struggling to follow along.

 

[al3xis]

And if Wade doesn't get hurt in the 2005 ECF, maybe Shaq gets two rings post-LA?

 

[darthska]

Just posting this in here for reference

I'm on my phone so I'll examine and go deeper later

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=3436401&src=desktop

Continuing to post about one game of a series doesn't count for more than one rebuttal.

And pointing at one game about a series doesn't change the facts of the other games, either.

 

[sea manup]

OK, on the topic of post-Kobe+Shaq championships vs. if they stayed together, me personally, I could see us winning another one if Shaq had stayed, and I also see Kobe being the FMVP, just as Wade was. I could see us winning another even, but w/ Kobe as FMVP again.

"HOW, ska?! Shaq was DONNEEE!!!"

He wouldn't be MDE Shaq from early 2000s. I could see Mitch & Co building around 'Kobe + still-productive-but-no-longer-dominant Shaq.' I mean, David Robinson ABSOLUTELY helped the Spurs w/ those first 2, and anyone who says he was just along for the ride is flat out wrong. Was he 70 points David Robinson? HAYL no. Quadruple double David? Not even close; those days were long gone... but he was effective enough for Twin Towers to be a force... twice.

I could see Phil working out a different team dynamic that no longer starts w/ pounding the ball inside. It ain't like having a team w/ 'good enough' inside play and strong perimeter play is foreign to him; that's exactly how he got his first 6 as a coach.

this is pretty much how i feel about the topic. but what i dont understand is why kobe haters bring this up as an argument. lets say they are cool with each other and go on to win 2 more (5 total) where kobe is the FMVP both times, in this version of history along with kobe keeping up his production after shaq retires along with winning two olympic golds would put him head and shoulders over shaq and duncan (keep in mind that these two new kobe shaq titles would be in the time period that the spurs won two, so he would not have 4 championships like he does now) in terms of the best player of his generation.

 

[quik1987]

Funny how Lakers fans ignore the kings series fixing


But when bringing up the heat they have no problem

Yes, I am a Lakers fan. 

SPLENDID point.  The Kings were robbed!!!

How does this change the discussion about Shaq, post-Lakers, though?  You're struggling to follow along.

You brought up how they think match fixing exaggerated Shaq's greatness post Lakers, i was just pointing out how they conveniently ignored match fixing during shaqs lakers run that you should be thankful for.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that without game fixing Shaq may never have even seen that 4th championship and this discussion suddenly leans a lot more in a different direction.

 

[nako xl]

Funny how Lakers fans ignore the kings series fixing


But when bringing up the heat they have no problem

Yes, I am a Lakers fan. 

SPLENDID point.  The Kings were robbed!!!

How does this change the discussion about Shaq, post-Lakers, though?  You're struggling to follow along.

Someone brought up how they think match fixing exaggerated Shaq's greatness post Lakers, i was just pointing out how they conveniently ignored match fixing during shaqs lakers run.

No.  CP and I brought up how without match-fixing Shaq may never have seen a 4th championship.  So saying he still had 1-3 more left in him post trade isn't a given. 

Bringing up the Kings series serves no purpose other than maybe supporting some of the others' points that Shaq's greatness may be overstated.

You trying to support their point?

 

[darthska]

Thing is, there is so little argument that can be made for the Mavs having a fair shot to win that series. They literally had no chance after game 2... and last I checked, you can't win a 4 game series in 2 games.

The Kings absolutely had chances. Like I said, people talk about FTs first and foremost, but they had games where they out FTed us DESPITE intentionally fouling big dude.

Same can't be said about the Mavs; that series was an absolute joke.

But they won. Shaq got a ring. The end.