IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[CP1708]

SneakerPro, solid work in here. You've helped make this a much better thread where solid convo's are now taking place. Good work, 100% serious.

 

[xx hpdv iii]

Hakeem higher than Duncan and Shaq?

Hakeem was only great for like 3 years, granted he won 2 championships during that time.

Kobe got 2 rings by himself like Hakeem and has been great for more seasons.

Duncan has 4 championships over Hakeem's 2 and he was again great for a longer period of time than Hakeem.

Same with Shaq

I really think Hakeem is overrated....maybe I need to look again but he wasn't a top 3 player in the NBA for a long time. For much of his career Ewing , Shaq and Robinson were considered better

 

[quik1987]

Check these stats

Kobe has 10 top 5 finishes in the NBA MVP voting

Jordan had 10

Kareem had 15

Wilt had 10

Bill had 11

Bird had 9

Magic had 9

Oscar had 9

Wait

When did they start giving awards to top 5 in mvp race?

Were gonna start giving kobe credit for awards he didnt win?

Doing that would make it sound like Kobe is on the same level as jordan

 

[CP1708]

I've never heard not being able to repeat ever used as a negative toward Tim Duncan in my life outside of this thread.

Its amazing Kobe is getting credit for repeating while playing with another dominant player but when he got beat it was because they were tired from making the Finals.

Well Tim Duncan was maybe a little tired from carrying single star teams to championships.

Go back thru the history of the game. You can look and view the champs every single year, almost all of them, all the ones we are talkin about in here have gone back to back, or at the very worst, were able to reach back to back finals to defend their titles. Bird never won back to back, but he went to FOUR straight Finals at least!!!!! (which is yet another point about making "too many" runs in a row.

Teams RARELY make 4 straight Finals. It's GRUELING. The Celts made it in 84-85-86 and 87. In 87, they were breaking down, they never got back.

LA made it in 82, 83, 84, and 85 and then suddenly got bumped early as hell in 86, they were outta gas. They came back in 87, 88, and in 89 what happened? They went 11-0 to start the playoffs, and then half their starting lineup was done early in the Finals. Both Scott and Magic were knocked out with injury. Those runs take tolls.

MJ made the 3 peat, and took 2 years off to get back and get another 3 peat. Surely you've heard people say they "would have" won 8 straight if he didn't retire. No way. He may have gotten the 4th in 94, but at some point, they would have broken down. It's not like the 60's Celtics where you play one round, then Finals. You have to play 4 rounds every year. That's 16 Playoff series in 4 seasons to make a run at a 4 peat. So when Dunc won in 03, that was LA's 14th playoff series, they were 2-2 and Horry shot a 3 at the buzzer to win game 5 and it rimmed out. If that shot goes in, who knows what happens. But the bottom line was that season, they were on fumes, plain and simple.

Know what 2011 was? LA's 14th playoff series, Kobe, Pau, etc were all on fumes and got drilled by a team you know quite well. I know that you want to simply dismiss what I am saying, but the fact is it was indeed their 14th series, BOTH times. 03 and 2011. As I said, goin to 4 straight Finals is an incredibly difficult task, and if Miami makes the Finals this year, I am positive they won't make it next year, they'll simply need a break to re-charge. It's how the NBA is now.

As for Dunc not repeating, it's just true. He never even made back to back Finals. Bron has, Kobe has, Shaq did, MJ, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell* (much diff era back then) even Isiah Thomas made it to back to back Finals. Hell, Jason Kidd made it back to back. The Billups Pistons team made it to back to back Finals. All those players, all those teams, Duncan never did. Don't mean he isn't still great, and a top 10 All Time NBA player, but it's something he never accomplished that many others have. That's all I'm sayin. And like I said, Bird never won back to back either, but he did at least make back to back Finals to try and defend his titles. And making it 4 years straight (as difficult as that is) is a pretty big accomplishment.

 

[lugaw87]

You are right. My fault. He quit on Charlotte up front and essentially threatened n whined his way into being traded to Hollywood.

Exactly kobe and his agent are very smart at the time going to a big market team is a no brainer.if he played with the hornets he wouldve the same fate as lebron for first 5-7 years he aint winning with hornets thats for sure.

 

[essential1]

Again.. The Hornets were not going to draft Kobe. The Hornets had agreed to trade their pick regardless of who they picked before they even picked at 13th..The Lakers wanted him (Jerry West in particular)... The Lakers called up the Hornets, and set the deal on the table... 5 minutes before the draft they gave the Hornets who they wanted (Kobe Bryant).. The Hornets head scout even said they did not ever consider drafting Kobe.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I'm sorry but I don't see how any shade can be thrown on Kobe for being traded on draft day.

No matter what the reason.

 

[essential1]

Hornets pretty much went into the draft wanting to trade the pick.. Kobe didn't whine out of anywhere... Just some thing that people who don't like him have been trying to claim was true.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

So Bill Branch the Hornets' head scout is lying... The guy who would basically be in charge of evaluating guys in that draft.. The one who gives the recommendation to the front office on who to choose..


It's not shade, it's what happened... The Hornets were shopping the pick, the Lakers offered up Vlade in order to pick who they want at 13th. They picked Kobe.

Dude I know, what I'm saying is Kobe can't be knocked for being traded on draft night which is what old dude is trying to do.

 

[essential1]

Dude I know, what I'm saying is Kobe can't be knocked for being traded on draft night which is what old dude is trying to do.

Yeah I know.. I re-read it twice, and said oh wait I misread that... My fault

 

[CP1708]

Now, hold on a sec tho. I maintain that Kobe and his agent were not strong arming the NBA into letting him be a Laker, but I am NOT saying that they didn't at least HELP the cause a bit.

There were a couple teams that were interested in him, like New Jersey (Calipari) But they grew afraid that Kobe would hold out or something to that effect. That, was probably his agent casually suggesting that.

Now had Philly taken him #1, you all think Kobe would have freaked and demanded being dealt to LA? That's the lunacy of saying that Kobe demanded LA only. West just happened to be in love with Kobe from a single workout, one that West took as a favor because West knew Kobe's agent personally. Kobe's workout routine, as a 17 year old, blew West away. But he had NO idea how he could get Kobe.

But it got clearer as they prepared. They knew they were chasing Shaq, but still didn't have the money freed up. When the Grizzlies agreed to take Lynch and Peeler off their hands, they knew they would have the money to offer Shaq a max deal, they just needed one last piece. Moving Divac. The Hornets had lost Zo, needed a big, had no interest in a high school guard of all pieces, and agreed to the deal. The only other team in play was the Phoenix Suns, Danny Ainge could see it happening, he knew LA was gonna get both Kobe AND Shaq, and that's how it went down.

Kobe and his agent were not guilty of demanding a deal to LA, but they were not exactly scott free innocent either, they did at the very least warn the Nets off at #8, but they did NOT strong arm the Hornets. New Orleans had no interest in him, despite what they say 15 years after the fact. (Bass telling people he really loved Kobe pre draft..........in 2011 )

 

[darthska]

So if a critic brings up championships in a negative way regarding Kobe ("MJ has more and went undefeated", "Magic was in more, has the same amount of rings, and has more FVMPs"), it's "Those are a team accomplishment."

But if a fan brings up championships as a positive on Kobe ("He repeated 3 times"), it's not about the team anymore? Now the trophy goes to an individual?

Of course I've heard the 'Spurs never defended; shame on Duncan" line of reasoning dozens of times, and I've always disagreed with it, because it doesn't really matter. I think it's making up a positive based on how history has already played out. In the end, 4 championships is type crazy in today's NBA, and Duncan (and his comrades, obviously) have done that. No, it's not 5, but 4 is tough today.

 

[CP1708]

But I never said Dunc was not top 10 because of it, or that 4 isn't excellent in its own right, I said simply, he never repeated, or defended his title, and he hasn't.

And FMVP is not team, that's individual. Title is team, but the MVP trophy goes to a single player.

I think overall what I was getting at is all the top 10 players have things that can be viewed "negatively" but it doesn't remove them of top 10 status.

LeBron James got swept in a Finals, and then whatever you want to call his performance in the 2011 Finals, guess what, when it's his time, he's kicking the door down on all time Top 10. But he has some skeletons, just as Duncan, just as Bird, and just as Kobe.

But only Kobe has an overrated thread on NT.

 

[scotthallwithapick]

But only Kobe has an overrated thread on NT.

Lebron has one.

Bird has had one.

I'm sure Duncan has before but since I can't confirm I won't speak it with confidence.

 

[KMante]

Los Angeles Lakers: Why Kobe Bryant Is the Most Overrated Player in the NBA

BY PETER EMERICK (FEATURED COLUMNIST) ON FEBRUARY 9, 2012

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...mamba-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-the-nba

No, I'm not a Kobe hater. I've got serious respect for the Black Mamba and what he's done in the NBA, but I still think that he's hands down the most overrated player who's playing in the league today.

Kobe isn't having a bad year, averaging 29.3 PPG, 5.8 RPG and 5.4 APG with a PER of 25.47, but there's more to those statistics than meets the eye.

Sure, Kobe's leading the league in scoring, but he's doing so by also leading the league in field-goal attempts with a whopping 599 on the year. Just to help put that number into perspective, the next closest player to Kobe is sharp-shooter Kevin Durant, who's put up 494 field-goal attempts on the year.

The absurd amount of shots that Kobe's jacked up this year wouldn't be an issue if the Lakers were dominating their competition, but they're not—which is in large part due to the offensive production that Kobe takes away from other players on the Lakers roster, like Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol.

In addition to taking offensive production away from his teammates, Kobe's crazy amount of field-goal attempts is an issue because he's shooting at 44.4 percent from the field this year, which isn't anything to call home about.

Kobe's field-goal percentage of 44.4 ranks 70th overall in the NBA this season, which is a pretty low percentage and subsequent ranking for a guy who many consider to be the best player in the league today.

I'm not saying that the Black Mamba is overrated, solely because he's jacked up the most shots in the NBA thus far, while hitting only 44.4 percent of them. The major reason why Kobe is the most overrated player in the NBA, is because the way he plays the game is focused more on his personal production than on helping the Lakers win games.

If you ask Kobe, I'm sure he'll say that he's all about helping his team win games and ultimately winning NBA championships, but the reality is that the way he plays the game doesn't match up with that perspective.

Kobe is at the point in his career where he needs to realize he's not the same player he once was. He can't single-handedly lead the Lakers to an NBA championship and, luckily for him, he doesn't have to.

The Lakers don't have the deepest roster in the NBA, but they do have one of the most impressive trios in the NBA in Kobe, Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. The more Kobe centers the Lakers' offensive production around himself, the more opportunities he takes away from two extremely capable players in Bynum and Gasol.

It's time for Kobe to realize that the Lakers don't need him to be the player he once was, scoring 35-plus points a night. Kobe needs to realize that the Lakers need him to be a more complete player, integrating his teammates into the offensive more than he currently his—until he does, the Lakers will continue to struggle and Kobe will continue to be overrated.

When you're hyped as the best player currently in the NBA, you've got to back that up by helping your team win—the way Kobe is playing so far this year isn't doing that on a consistent basis.

In a recent interview with ESPN's Bill Simmons, Larry Bird picked Kobe over LeBron James when he was asked about which former NBA MVP he'd rather play with. Not so fast though, as Larry Legend also had this to say about Kobe:

"Well I'd probably take Kobe, because of the fact that ... well, of course he wouldn't have been shooting as much as he does now."

Without directly saying it, Larry implies the same thing that I've been saying throughout this whole article: that Kobe shoots too much (well, at least a little too much). Larry would only want Kobe as his teammate if he shot the ball less, because Larry realizes that while Kobe has a winner's mentality, he's focused on his own production just a little too much.

Kobe's still stuck in the "I'm the best player in the world" mentality, which results in him forcing shots and hogging offensive possessions because he trusts himself more than he trusts his teammates. A year or two ago, that wasn't a problem because the Lakers were winning, but this year it's a different story with the Lakers sitting at a disappointing 14-11 overall.

Kobe buys into the hype built around him: that he, the Black Mamba, is the most deadly offensive talent in the NBA. While that might be true, it's not what the Lakers need him to be.

The Lakers need Kobe to be a more complete player by facilitating the game to his teammates rather than relying purely on his own talents. Until Kobe manages to do that, he'll continue to be the most overrated player in the NBA.

Kobe needs to realize that being the best doesn't just mean moving up the ranks of the all-time scoring leaders or averaging near 30.0 PPG.

Being the best means finding ways to help your team win, and that's what Kobe needs to start doing. If he fails to do that this year, the Black Mamba will continue to be the most overrated player in the NBA.

Looking back on his career, I'm starting to realize that dude is wildly overrated. He has never elevated his teammates games and he makes some bonehead plays in the pursuit to get his.

Thoughts?

This is the post that started the firestorm! goldenchild9 knew exactly what he was doing. 

My last post was over 50 pages ago (30 posts per page format). 

This is crazy. I don't even know if I want to read back through the 1000+ unread posts.

As a fan of Kobe, I still stand by my stance from before: 

Kobe is top 5 all-time: OVERRATED.

Kobe is top 10 all-time: Not OVERRATED. He's around there..........for now, and moving up!

Also, I think LeBron will ultimately go down as a better BASKETBALL PLAYER (note: not scorer or shooter.)

 

[darthska]

Touche (on you not bumping Duncan out of your top 10 despite pointing out his lack of a defending title).

On your next point: there's not currently a thread against John Wall, and another on against Lebron James, and Chris Paul? I've dreamed those? As well as dreaming the numerous anti-MJ threads that have graced our board? TMac never had any threads against him? Iverson? All of those were just in my dreams?

Stop it.

And there isn't currently a Kobe Appreciation thread?

Stop your emotionality with the fact this thread even exists. It weakens your entire stance. He is a polarizing figure. This allows for that discussion, as well as gives us a place to tell 'haters' to post instead of ruining other threads... as I've explained on here and in PMs to you and in the Lakers thread more than enough times for you to understand. If you still don't, it's simply because the emotional investment prevents your understanding (read: you don't like it). That's it.

 

[darthska]

*waits for "Oh, so now bleacherreport has credibility?"*

Wait for it... wait for it... waaaait foorrr ittttt...

 

[CP1708]

CP3 flopping thread isn't an "anti" CP3 thread, its that he flops.
Bron's "anti" thread isn't that he's overrated, some sort of decision based thread.
Don't know the Wall one.

I'm not complaining this is open, its actually much better in here the last 12-15 pages, my point was the premise, a top 10 player being labeled overrated is just off. But the debates are viable now, I like it here so its fine. Was just saying, the other 9 players, whoever they are, don't have a thread like this one.

 

[CP1708]

*waits for "Oh, so now bleacherreport has credibility?"*

Wait for it... wait for it... waaaait foorrr ittttt...

Ska, you forgot, that same exact author wrote Kobe is the best of his generation 9 months later.

Same. Author.

Remember?

 

[lugaw87]

As Kobe retires in a few yrs, basketball fans should just enjoy his game and appreciate the level of dedication he has put into his craft...

kobe will be missed when he retires....

 

[CP1708]

Written by the same "columnist" 10 months later...

Legends of the NBA: 25 Best Players of the 2000s

BY PETER EMERICK (FEATURED COLUMNIST) ON OCTOBER 1, 2012

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1350566-legends-of-the-nba-25-best-players-of-the-2000s/page/27

1. Kobe Bryant, SG, L.A. Lakers

2000s Stats: 28.2 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, 45.7 FG%

Years Played in 2000s: 2000-2009 (10 Seasons)

Notable Achievements in 2000s: Four-time NBA Champion, 2009 NBA Finals MVP, 2008 NBA MVP, 10-time NBA All-Star, Three-time NBA All-Star Game MVP, Two-time NBA Scoring Champion, Seven-time All-NBA First Team, Two-time All-NBA Second Team, 2005 All-NBA Third Team, Six-time NBA All-Defensive First Team, Two-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team

Much like the 1990s were absolutely dominated by Michael Jordan, the 2000s were dominated in the same way by Kobe Bryant.

Kobe benefited from playing alongside one of the best centers to ever play the game, but he proved that he could lead a team by himself to the NBA's promised land when he led the L.A. Lakers to the 2009 NBA title.

Kobe's success wasn't earned overnight and it wasn't a natural gift. It was a product of hard work and studying the game. When it came to being a cerebral player, there was no better player in the game than Kobe. He outsmarted his defenders and he constantly broke down defenses by understanding where their weaknesses were.

His confidence also put him on a whole different level than most other players during the 2000s. He was never afraid to take big shots, and he never backed down from any obstacle that stood in his way of obtaining greatness.

Kobe was without a doubt the best player of the 2000s, and he could very well be the greatest player in the history of the game.

Ska, proof.

But I was wrong, it was 10 months, not 9, I was wrong.

Same, author.

 

[darthska]

CP3 flopping thread isn't an "anti" CP3 thread, its that he flops.
Bron's "anti" thread isn't that he's overrated, some sort of decision based thread.
Don't know the Wall one.

I'm not complaining this is open, its actually much better in here the last 12-15 pages, my point was the premise, a top 10 player being labeled overrated is just off. But the debates are viable now, I like it here so its fine. Was just saying, the other 9 players, whoever they are, don't have a thread like this one.

Clearly you haven't opened the CP3 thread. Dude is getting roasted.

(well, was; I haven't checked it since a few days after it was made, and it was not good for CP3 at ALL)

The Bron thread is questioning if he is a disappointment.

That's not anti?

"John wall is TERRIBLE" is the exact title of that one.

And the other 9 players are not as polarizing as Kobe; I would say... without thinking about it too much, so argue if you must but I won't back my stance up... Kobe is the most polarizing of all of the NBA's greats.

 

[CP1708]

Terrible can mean so many things tho......

 

[quik1987]

Guess what, you can be one of the best players of the 2000s, and still be one of the most overrated players of ALL TIME.

 

[nako xl]

Guess what, you can be one of the best players of the 2000s, and still be one of the most overrated players of ALL TIME.

The list named him the #1 player of the 2000s.

That puts him ahead of Tim Duncan, Lebron, etc. etc.

You were JUST arguing that Duncan is top 10 and Kobe isn't.

You can't agree with that article and maintain your previous stance.