IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[itsabaythang]

^So if you wanna only accept things absolutely, I take it you also discredit Jordan for having the most misses in regular season history? And Favre must be overrated because he has the record for most INT in NFL history? Or do you only pick and choose those stats to discredit players you don't like?

I never said Kobe was overrated.

The point is you cant point out something negative about Kobes game without hearing explanations and excuses.

Its no different from MJ or Favre stans giving excuses as to why they hold those negative records as well. I'm not one to make those excuses.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I see. So let me ask Pro, who would you rate higher, ALL TIME, Kobe or Dirk? Be honest.


Nako, you remember correctly, he was making the point about assists should be close to shot attempts. He made the claim, but he did back it up with some reasoned points, he wasn't just throwing stuff at a wall or anything. I personally had never heard that line of thinking, but there's lots I don't know.

Kobe is a greater player but its not nearly far off as the general public and most Kobe fans will accept.

Bill Simmons book of basketball has Kobe in the 8-9 range, and Dirk in the 35-38 range overall, all time. He may actually have Dirk near 30 by now. So about 20 spots or so difference. You agree with that?

Naw man Bill has him top 20 now,

And actually yes I do agree with it. The 2 rings post Shaq where the second best player had a never ever won a playoff game before he played with Kobe can't be denied.

If I was a Kobe a fan I would beat that point into the ground.

Like the only reason I'm in this thread is to go at the dudes that try to put in him top 5 all time, say he's the best player ever and the one's that don't admit he's overrated as far as what he is right now.

 

[itsabaythang]

Anybody here look up win shares?

If it doesnt benefit Kobe, its Void. It should never be brought up.

 

[nako xl]

I see. So let me ask Pro, who would you rate higher, ALL TIME, Kobe or Dirk? Be honest.


Nako, you remember correctly, he was making the point about assists should be close to shot attempts. He made the claim, but he did back it up with some reasoned points, he wasn't just throwing stuff at a wall or anything. I personally had never heard that line of thinking, but there's lots I don't know.

Kobe is a greater player but its not nearly far off as the general public and most Kobe fans will accept.

People will think I'm nuts but Kobe's defense is the difference. Offensively its a coin flip.

I think Dirk is a top 10 power forward of all time.  I'd listen to an argument for top 5.

He's the best offensive power forward ever.  If he had decided at the start of his career to go inside like he did during the title run he might be arguably top 3, right there with Duncan and whoever you want to put #2.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Anybody here look up win shares?

If it doesnt benefit Kobe, its Void. It should never be brought up.

It does feel that way sometimes or the stat will be marginalized in some way.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I see. So let me ask Pro, who would you rate higher, ALL TIME, Kobe or Dirk? Be honest.



Nako, you remember correctly, he was making the point about assists should be close to shot attempts. He made the claim, but he did back it up with some reasoned points, he wasn't just throwing stuff at a wall or anything. I personally had never heard that line of thinking, but there's lots I don't know.

Kobe is a greater player but its not nearly far off as the general public and most Kobe fans will accept.


People will think I'm nuts but Kobe's defense is the difference. Offensively its a coin flip.

I think Dirk is a top 10 power forward of all time.  I'd listen to an argument for top 5.

He's the best offensive power forward ever.  If he had decided at the start of his career to dominate inside like he did during the title run he might be arguably top 3, right there with Duncan and whoever you want to put #2.

That fact that at no point in time in Dirk's career could you put in him on the other team's best big and have it be a plus advantage brings down Dirk's greatness a ton.

I blame a lot of that on Don Nelson though when Dirk was actually reasonable athletic was when he was at his worst defensively and no one did anything about it until Avery.

 

[5am6oody72]

I never said Kobe was overrated.

The point is you cant point out something negative about Kobes game without hearing explanations and excuses.

Its no different from MJ or Favre stans giving excuses as to why they hold those negative records as well. I'm not one to make those excuses.

Fair enough, I can respect that then.

Nako's post about Jordan's #'s his last year with the Bulls is a good one. Few would argue that Jordan was in his prime those last few years, but he was still considered the best player in the league. Kobes no longer the best player in the league, but still putting up numbers comparable to 2nd 3peat MJ. So not too shabby. Seems like a lot of people overlooked some of the same things about MJ's game cus he was winning titles. If nobody cared that he put up 23 shots @47% while only dishing out 3.5 assists, and people still thought he had a great season and was the best player in the league, how do they knock Kobe for posting seasons similar to that (but with more assists)? He was still a better defender then than Kobe is now though, but that hasn't been the focus of the convo.

 

[darthska]

By your basic level of reasoning, since Kobe has the most misses he should also have the most attempts? So you expect Kobe, a 2 guard, to shoot equal or better % as Kareem (C) and Karl Malone (PF) who are 1 and 2 on the regular season attempts list...because that's the only way what you said SHOULD be true (Kobe having the most misses and the most attempts) could be true.

all while having his assist numbers close to the number of shot attempts he takes per game

I still laugh at that shot attempts to assists ratio that Ska was touting.  Like laugh HEARTILY.  THAT'S how a real guard should be playing.  Right.

In the 98 title run (his 13th season in the league), Jordan averaged 3.5 assists per game while attempting 23.1 fg's per.  But it's all OK because he was shooting 47%.  THE GOAT!!!!

When did I say that? Obviously, you're discussing a concept I mentioned, so when did I excuse Jordan? When did I even mention Jordan on this topic? I very, VERY seldom mention other players when discussing a specific player. This player has literally nothing to do with that player, period.

Do I think that Bulls team team could have been a little better if Jordan took a few less shots and dropped a few more assists? Ummm... yes. So as great as they were... and I remember how unbelievably great they were, no doubt... do I think they could have been greater? Yes. They obviously weren't perfect... like LITERALLY perfect, never losing a game... right? I'm not knocking them, by any means; I just said I definitely remember their dominance. So pointing out that they weren't perfect shouldn't be interpreted that I'm saying they suck... and it shouldn't be interpreted that I said they were flawed because Jordan should have shot less and passed more.

But alas, I know it will be interpreted that way, so hearing people misquote me and misrepresent me over the next few months should be fun.

 

[darthska]

Ok, reset here tho guys, Kobe has missed a ton of shots in his career, what exactly is the point of that in terms of where he slots 6-10, 11, 12 all time?

Is missed shots the SOLE reason Kobe is overrated? Is it a combo package along with playing with Shaq/Pau?

What is the exact argument being made right now in terms of missed shots?

Combo, for me anyways.

All I can do is answer for me; not all Kobe critics. So for MEEE (which means I'm really serious because it's all caps and has multiple repeated letters at the end)...

It started with his smugness before he was even a Laker, before he was even drafted. I don't like flash/swagger. I know that's not a very popular opinion, but if you don't agree with, don't have that opinion yourself (to anyone reading this). Someone else loves the Terrell Owens/Chad Johnson type flash and swagger? Good for them, but I'm not them. I didn't think Randy Moss pretending to pull his pants down was funny, an Kobe lost me as a fan from the day he said "I've decided to take my talents to the NBA" in his HS gym w/ that big freaking "Y'all dudes can't eff w/ me" smile and those Oakleys on his head. Then we drafted him.

Airball in the playoffs against Utah. Multiple airballs. I'm like "Damn, son... stop shooting." And this would serve as a microcosm for what Kobe would do (keep shooting) and what I would do (keep rolling my eyes) all the way up until the second half of this season, and 2010.

Other people can speak for themselves on their issue w/ him, as a basketball player and/or a person... and there will be some flawed arguments like "He raped a chick so he sucks at basketball", which is just a pathetic stance for at least a couple reasons... but for me, there you go.

The 'all time missed shots' thing is added to the list of reasons why I think he's overrated.

 

[darthska]

Most true Kobe fans have a strong emotional investment in him. I truly believe its impossible for them to discuss him totally logically.

There is a reason the side that has typed in ALL CAPS the most in this thread are Kobe fans.

how are kobe fans the only ones emotionally invested?

you and quik are crying about not having access to the laker thread and people "trolling" this thread, but yet kobe fans are the only ones emotionally invested in this argument

True story. I agree wholeheartedly with denni5 (no sarcasm).

 

[CP1708]

Ska, I find the Utah airballs fascinating.

I loved it, you hated it. I looked at it as "he'll learn from this, it will drive him" you got "dude, stop shooting".

2 years later, he was game fouring Indiana on the biggest stage.

Do you think that happens without those airballs?

If he just hits the rim, but still misses, does it drive him to kill hisself working?

And lastly, why the 18 year old have to shoot? Why none of the vets step up to take the shots when coach was drawin up a play? You don't think that speaks to him, and them for what they would all become?

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Most true Kobe fans have a strong emotional investment in him. I truly believe its impossible for them to discuss him totally logically.

There is a reason the side that has typed in ALL CAPS the most in this thread are Kobe fans.

how are kobe fans the only ones emotionally invested?

you and quik are crying about not having access to the laker thread and people "trolling" this thread, but yet kobe fans are the only ones emotionally invested in this argument

Ehh I enjoy y'all's butthurt it entertains me.

Realistically there are few reasonable Kobe fans they overrate him but I get it he's their guy, its the ACBDboys of the world I like messing with.

Two of my best friends in the world are huge Lakers/Kobe fans, I don't live as close to them anymore so I Rustle yall's Jimmies to get a kicks.

 

[darthska]

why the 18 year old have to shoot?

He didn't. I don't go back and uber diagram plays... especially from like a billion years ago... but I DISTINCTLY remember on one of those airballs... I think he was in the pinch post... Eddie Jones was WIIIIIIDE open in the short corner. Guarantee he would have chucked it if he got it. I mean, someone would have shot the damn ball.

It ain't like dudes were playing hot potato.

Swinging the ball around until a nice open look comes about... or at least a decent shot considering the defense... is NOT 'being afraid to shoot', and having someone chuck up multiple airballs in the midst of ball rotations is NOT an honorable decision of 'Well you guys won't shoot, so I will.'

God that reasoning drives me absolutely bananas.

 

[nako xl]

By your basic level of reasoning, since Kobe has the most misses he should also have the most attempts? So you expect Kobe, a 2 guard, to shoot equal or better % as Kareem (C) and Karl Malone (PF) who are 1 and 2 on the regular season attempts list...because that's the only way what you said SHOULD be true (Kobe having the most misses and the most attempts) could be true.

all while having his assist numbers close to the number of shot attempts he takes per game

I still laugh at that shot attempts to assists ratio that Ska was touting.  Like laugh HEARTILY.  THAT'S how a real guard should be playing.  Right.

In the 98 title run (his 13th season in the league), Jordan averaged 3.5 assists per game while attempting 23.1 fg's per.  But it's all OK because he was shooting 47%.  THE GOAT!!!!

When did I say that? Obviously, you're discussing a concept I mentioned, so when did I excuse Jordan? When did I even mention Jordan on this topic? I very, VERY seldom mention other players when discussing a specific player. This player has literally nothing to do with that player, period.

Do I think that Bulls team team could have been a little better if Jordan took a few less shots and dropped a few more assists? Ummm... yes. So as great as they were... and I remember how unbelievably great they were, no doubt... do I think they could have been greater? Yes. They obviously weren't perfect... like LITERALLY perfect, never losing a game... right? I'm not knocking them, by any means; I just said I definitely remember their dominance. So pointing out that they weren't perfect shouldn't be interpreted that I'm saying they suck... and it shouldn't be interpreted that I said they were flawed because Jordan should have shot less and passed more.

But alas, I know it will be interpreted that way, so hearing people misquote me and misrepresent me over the next few months should be fun.

Ska.  I've said multiple time that I brought up Jordan not as a response to you but others in the thread who touted your shots vs assists stats and then use Jordan as the archetype for not just a guard but a basketball player.

Keep taking faux offense to something I've explained several times.  You quoted a stat.  I disagree with it.  I then responded to others.  Nowhere have I said that "Ska excuses Jordan!"  The same way you keep accusing me of ascribing a position to you, show me one place where I said you mentioned Jordan.  Give me one example, and if I did I apologize.

This is a Kobe Bryant is overrated thread.  This is one of several stats used to discredit Kobe that I've shown Jordan rates as "poorly" on.  In fact, Kobe has a better shot to assist ratio that Michael Jordan.

It then follows that if Kobe is overrated, Michael Jordan is overrated too, right?  So you agree, if Kobe should drop in the player rankings because of these, so should the greatest?

 

[CP1708]

Ska my friend, I think you are misremembering some things about that game.

As his former teammate Shaquille O'Neal said, "[Kobe] was the only guy who had the guts at the time to take shots like that."

You know Shaq to be all praising and glowing about one Mr Bryant?

It was said quite a few times, no one in that huddle wanted the ball. Not even Nick. Del could have drawn up the play for anybody, Kobe was the only one that said he wanted it.

Ask yourself. Why as an NBA coach, would you draw up a play out of a timeout for an 18 year old kid you hardly used all year? ESPECIALLY when you have Shaq, Horry, Nick, etc.

Then after he missed, they got the rebond, still nobody took the shot, they swung it back around to him.

Again, don't believe me, but why would Shaq say that, something that absolves Kobe for his mistakes?

 

[darthska]

Nako XL  

I still laugh at that shot attempts to assists ratio that Ska was touting.  Like laugh HEARTILY.  THAT'S how a real guard should be playing.  Right.

In the 98 title run (his 13th season in the league), Jordan averaged 3.5 assists per game while attempting 23.1 fg's per.  But it's all OK because he was shooting 47%.  THE GOAT!!!!

When did I say that? Obviously, you're discussing a concept I mentioned, so when did I excuse Jordan? When did I even mention Jordan on this topic? I very, VERY seldom mention other players when discussing a specific player. This player has literally nothing to do with that player, period.

Do I think that Bulls team team could have been a little better if Jordan took a few less shots and dropped a few more assists? Ummm... yes. So as great as they were... and I remember how unbelievably great they were, no doubt... do I think they could have been greater? Yes. They obviously weren't perfect... like LITERALLY perfect, never losing a game... right? I'm not knocking them, by any means; I just said I definitely remember their dominance. So pointing out that they weren't perfect shouldn't be interpreted that I'm saying they suck... and it shouldn't be interpreted that I said they were flawed because Jordan should have shot less and passed more.

But alas, I know it will be interpreted that way, so hearing people misquote me and misrepresent me over the next few months should be fun.

Ska.  I've said multiple time that I brought up Jordan not as a response to you but others in the thread who touted your shots vs assists stats and then use Jordan as the archetype for not just a guard but a basketball player.

Keep taking faux offense to something I've explained several times.   You quoted a stat.  I disagree with it.  I then responded to others. Nowhere have I said that "Ska excuses Jordan!"  The same way you keep accusing me of ascribing a position to you, show me one place where I said you mentioned Jordan.  Give me one example, and if I did I apologize.

This is a Kobe Bryant is overrated thread.  This is one of several stats used to discredit Kobe that I've shown Jordan rates as "poorly" on.  In fact, Kobe has a better shot to assist ratio that Michael Jordan.

Fair enough. Apology noted, and my apologies as well. I actually didn't see where others had said blah, blah, blah, so I didn't consider that you were responding to them about the stat I mentioned. My fault.

It then follows that if Kobe is overrated, Michael Jordan is overrated too, right?  So you agree, if Kobe should drop in the player rankings because of these, so should the greatest?

That's exactly why I don't hail Jordan as the GOAT. Obviously it's not a very popular opinion on NIKETalk so I don't go around throwing it out there, but this is exactly why I have Magic as number 1... for me. Yes, I have far more Jordans than I need, but those aren't about allegiance to him at ALL, not for me. I mean, you guys know my criticisms of Kobe, and I have 9 pairs of his sigs.

Magic is my GOAT.

And I'm not even going to say "No Laker fan bias, either", because I know damn well I'm being biased.

I grew up watching his style take us to 9 Finals, and it locked in my mind that THAT is the standard. Again, for me.

 

[darthska]

CP, context request, please.

When did Shaq say that? Yes, I knew he said it, and if I'm not mistaken, it was in the postgame presser, no?

 

[CP1708]

Honestly I don't know when he said it, I took the quote from Spike Lee when Spike did the Doin Work stuff.

I found an article from 97 (best I could find so far) and it only mentioned Del sayin he knew Kobe wouldn't worry about misses (insuating that others would?) and that his teammates trusted him to take the shots.

I have like 20 books on the Lakers over the years, and I remember reading that no one wanted the ball, Kobe was the only guy that spoke up. But I have no idea which book it was. I'll have to dig around in my garage and see if I can locate it.

 

[darthska]

It's really not that important, because you should already know by now how much weight I put into the words of celebrities. Before a contract extension, a player says he loves the team and hopes he retires there, then a couple days later when they hire a coach he hates, he's talking about maybe there's a better fit for him elsewhere.

My opinion is mine. I'm not going to hold the opinion that he HAAAD to shoot the ball because literally NO ONE else wanted to according to Shaq. I use logic too much to go for that.

And when Del said that Kobe wasn't afraid to miss, he could have been insinuating that others were afraid... or he could have also been insinuating that Kobe wasn't afraid to miss, which is, you know, what he said.

 

[iamjusayn]

had no idea jordan holds the record for most misses in the regular season? thanks. you learn something new everyday

thats crazy considering he had a rather shorter nba career and played less games than kobe chucking ***

kobe is great. not overrated. but he gets annoying when he chucks during crucial games.

problem with him is he that he is selfish and also thinks he cant miss. *fixed*

so i dont think hes selfish or a ball hog as most haters would say he just thinks he will never miss.

and if he did it for the fame he wouldnt shoot as much because he knows the consequences if he misses.

wait! what? what does him playing less seasons than bryant have to do with having the record for the most missed shots in ONE season? Mike could have played 8 seasons and still set this record.

 

[noblekane]

wait! what? what does him playing less seasons than bryant have to do with having the record for the most missed shots in ONE season? Mike could have played 8 seasons and still set this record.

your obsession with kobe and the lakers is unhealthy bro. its getting to the point where your in the team thread posting this "." because you know if you say something dumb you will get banned from that thread.

HOWEVER to address your your comment I was thinking MJ missed more shots in regular season career total not for ONE season. It was my mistake.

so yea didnt mean to get your blood pressure up you know since it pisses you off that much

 

[noblekane]

Most true sports fans have a strong emotional investment in their current franchise player. I truly believe its impossible for them to discuss them totally logically.

There is a reason why its called fan

fixed for you.

but because its the lakers guys want to make it bigger than it is because most of these "critics" are still salty over the lakers and kobe steam rolling them out of the playoffs

Not stan ska but fan just like critic and not hater

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Most true sports fans have a strong emotional investment in their current franchise player. I truly believe its impossible for them to discuss them totally logically.

There is a reason why its called fan

fixed for you.

but because its the lakers guys want to make it bigger than it is because most of these "critics" are still salty over the lakers and kobe steam rolling them out of the playoffs

Not stan ska but fan just like critic and not hater

Only time my team has seen Kobe in the playoffs we didn't get steamrolled.

It was quite the opposite in fact.

 

[nako xl]

wait! what? what does him playing less seasons than bryant have to do with having the record for the most missed shots in ONE season? Mike could have played 8 seasons and still set this record.

your obsession with kobe and the lakers is unhealthy bro. its getting to the point where your in the team thread posting this "." because you know if you say something dumb you will get banned from that thread.

HOWEVER to address your your comment I was thinking MJ missed more shots in regular season career total not for ONE season. It was my mistake.

so yea didnt mean to get your blood pressure up you know since it pisses you off that much

That is what the stat is.

MJ has the most misses in regular season career total.  not one season.  i don't get his snippy-ness when he's wrong.

 

[quik1987]

You guys wanna give Kobe credit for 4th most points ever but as soon as someone mentions he has the most misses ever y'all wanna talk about "nah nah, its because he played so many playoff game" when it's those same playoff games that are the reason he will have 4th most points ever.



When we talk about his averages its naw, "his first 2 years he rode the bench, he didn't get any burn to score points", but again mention those most misses in history....

You guys wanna talk about Jordan? How many scoring title does MJ have?

How many does Kobe have?

Oh.