IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[xx hpdv iii]

So while you look and see a statline such as 28 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, solid defense (in his prime moreso than the last 2-3 years) and then you see 9 for 21 and say "average game" because he was 9 for 21, yet 3 of those were end of quarter, end of shot clock misses and 1 was one of those Kobe what the **** was that shots. 4 missed shots, 1 his fault, 2-3 maybe his, maybe not his. You say bad game. I say 28/5/5 is his averages for the last 15 seasons, and only 2 others can match that, Mike, and LeBron.
 

Ohhh... the good old "he takes a lot of shots with the shot clock expiring because his teammates throw him the ball with 2 seconds left" theory.

STOP IT.

"3 of those were end of quarter, end of shot clock misses and 1 was one of those Kobe what the **** was that shots."

I mean...just STOP.

Kobe Bryant takes only ONE "what the **** was that?" shot per game?

You're not gonna convince me of something that you yourself don't even believe.

Can we talk about how the reason they "pass it to him with 2 seconds left on the shot clock" is because he dribbled and pump-faked for the first 16 seconds, completely stalling the offense..?

Oh wait... we'll just ignore that because he's the luckiest athlete ever and that has helped him receive 5 rings.

 

[xx hpdv iii]

Absolutely not


Does it happen yes (It happens to every player who is the number 1 option of an offense)


But it's not even remotely close the amount of Kobe willing wins as opposed to losses.

That statement is completely laughable. You obviously don't watch the games. The ratio is AT LEAST 2:1.

I'm talking about the games he loses by his lonesome vs. the games he wins by his lonesome.

 

[travis]

^^ bro you sound like a D1 Kobe hater lmfao . Okay dude hasn't shot 50%+ percent . If thts such a terrible thing why is he 5th on the all time scoring list ... We might as well say 4th cuhz he's fasho passing up Wilt and maybe even Jordan if you wanna keep it one hunnet . Don't give me no lame excuse like "well he takes all those shots so he has to be so high on tht list" cuhz if you say tht them ima js hit you with a "wut?-_-" dude is clutch . These cats in the leauge can't preform in the clutch I mean literally running away from the ball. Kobe demands it . Everyone knows he's gonna take the shot yet still he drains it . You over there in your house googling all these stats (cuhz it's no way you named all this white from the top of your dome lol) but tell me how many of them have been the cornerstone of a team for their whole career , scored 81 points in a game ? 100something forty point games , 24 fifty point games , 5 sixty point games . You telling me he's overrated cuhz he ain't never shot 50% **** .

When things go perfect for the lakers people praise kobe . But when things go bad they hate him . His blessing and curse .

 

[mister friendly]

Something I'll bring up that I left off on because it wasn't relevant til now:

A discussion Stan Van Gundy had on the radio (interviewing Spoelstra during LBJ's ridiculous fg% streak, and Spo said essentially "Lebron's smart. He knows when to shoot and when not to shoot, that's why his fg% is so high) Stan pointed out:

Lebron NEVER shoots at the end of quarters.  Never chucks it up from half court. EVER.  Rarely takes contested shots in crowds, never shoots contested heaves at the end of shot clocks (he'll pass those up) and the reason is % wise Lebron not only knows he has maybe a 25% chance of making those shots, but also that they'll negatively affect his over fg%.

Players like Mario Chalmers ALWAYS take those shots and are looking for them because they don't care about their fg%.  They're overconfident gunners.

Van Gundy then pointed out that there's a thin line between being smart and being selfish.  Because while the chance of making the shot might be low, LBJ's the best player on the team and his reasons for not taking the shot arent necessarily to help his team, but rather to not be the guy clanking 2-3 buzzer beaters a game.  This also goes into Lebron's seeming hesitance for a lot of his career of taking the bad leaning jumper at the end of guys and a lot of the criticism he'd get for making the more efficient play by always passing or just not taking the shot.

Kobe ALWAYS takes that full court heave.  He ALWAYS takes the leaning contest shot clock beating shot because in his opinion he's the best player on his team and the one that has the best chance of making it.  He also foolishly thinks he'll make that shot EVERY time he takes it.  Players like Lebron know it's not worth the 2 missed shot hit on their %.

This kind of goes into how players like Rondo who get praised for their assist numbers are on the low also selfish assist guys.  Iverson was the same way.  When they realize they're close to a double/double or triple/double they refuse to make the play that may be the best option for their team at the time in order to get that stat.  be it pulling up on a fast break and waiting for someone to pass to, passing up a good look at the basket to try to squeeze out an assist from the play, it looks great on the stat sheet but if you're being honest with yourself, it's the selfish play.  it's passing up the good basketball play/the easy basketball play/ the smart basketball play to boost stats.

where is the line drawn between selfishness for always gunning and just a disregard for what your final fg% on the box score is because you honestly think you're helping the team.

i realize this leaves open the counter argument "but you're not helping the team" but if fg% is your main point for Kobe's selfishness/averageness/not being in the top 25 lol ) and you say "well he's making 9/19 but those 9 shots were bad shots," don't you also have to look and acknowledge exactly what kind of shots the 10 misses are coming from?

Ive always noticed this and I respect Kobe for this.

 

[iamjusayn]

^^ bro you sound like a D1 Kobe hater lmfao . Okay dude hasn't shot 50%+ percent . If thts such a terrible thing why is he 5th on the all time scoring list ... We might as well say 4th cuhz he's fasho passing up Wilt and maybe even Jordan if you wanna keep it one hunnet . Don't give me no lame excuse like "well he takes all those shots so he has to be so high on tht list" cuhz if you say tht them ima js hit you with a "wut?-_-" dude is clutch . These cats in the leauge can't preform in the clutch I mean literally running away from the ball. Kobe demands it . Everyone knows he's gonna take the shot yet still he drains it . You over there in your house googling all these stats (cuhz it's no way you named all this white from the top of your dome lol) but tell me how many of them have been the cornerstone of a team for their whole career , scored 81 points in a game ? 100something forty point games , 24 fifty point games , 5 sixty point games . You telling me he's overrated cuhz he ain't never shot 50% **** .

When things go perfect for the lakers people praise kobe . But when things go bad they hate him . His blessing and curse .

How many seasons did MJ play n how many is/will bryant playing? You are saying he will prob pass Mike up in scoring but look how much longer its taking him, smh. You throw in Bryant's first couple seasons n imma throw in Mike's broken foot year n half season but I'm still saying in basically 13 seasons Mike built that resume n bryant is likey going to play 19 seasons! That's insane n beyond thirsty!

The chase is real.

 

[darthdeezy]

We all havent agreed to disagree yet eh?

 

[mrgogetit]

No they have not. I say Kobe is top 7 maybe eight maybe 9. But is definitely a top 10. And I strongly dislike Kobe. He is not in top nba starting 5. I would say if they were on the same team Kobe is like dwade and Michael is like Lebron.

 

[$tacy]

93 pages n still at square 1

 

[hypebeast5]

^ nt only

This should have been locked

 

[nako xl]

^^ bro you sound like a D1 Kobe hater lmfao . Okay dude hasn't shot 50%+ percent . If thts such a terrible thing why is he 5th on the all time scoring list ... We might as well say 4th cuhz he's fasho passing up Wilt and maybe even Jordan if you wanna keep it one hunnet . Don't give me no lame excuse like "well he takes all those shots so he has to be so high on tht list" cuhz if you say tht them ima js hit you with a "wut?-_-" dude is clutch . These cats in the leauge can't preform in the clutch I mean literally running away from the ball. Kobe demands it . Everyone knows he's gonna take the shot yet still he drains it . You over there in your house googling all these stats (cuhz it's no way you named all this white from the top of your dome lol) but tell me how many of them have been the cornerstone of a team for their whole career , scored 81 points in a game ? 100something forty point games , 24 fifty point games , 5 sixty point games . You telling me he's overrated cuhz he ain't never shot 50% **** .

When things go perfect for the lakers people praise kobe . But when things go bad they hate him . His blessing and curse .

How many seasons did MJ play n how many is/will bryant playing? You are saying he will prob pass Mike up in scoring but look how much longer its taking him, smh. You throw in Bryant's first couple seasons n imma throw in Mike's broken foot year n half season but I'm still saying in basically 13 seasons Mike built that resume n bryant is likey going to play 19 seasons! That's insane n beyond thirsty!

The chase is real.

MJ was the cornerstone of his franchise for 15 seasons.

Kobe didn't see the court for two years.  so 15 seasons.

how many years has kobe played hurt?  he played a full season with a cast on a finger on his shooting hand.

he's playing with a wrecked ankle right now.  he's played through every injury imaginable.

but let's count mike's injury year.

kobe would have been a starting 2guard for 2-3 more years than Jordan when it's all said and done.  this argument doesn't hold.

kareem takes 30 years to set his records.  "BEST CENTER EVERRRRRR!!!!!"

kobe takes 17 years.  "What's taking him so long? Ugh! Overrated!"

 

[SneakerProSr.]

This thread bores me now. We got dudes bringing up half court heaves now ***** amazing.

 

[CP1708]

This thread bores me now. We got dudes bringing up half court heaves now ***** amazing.

You were much happier when people were claiming Shaq and Pau did all the work, then Phil, and ignored 30K points, and 6K rebounds and assists, and 27/5/5 a game for 15 seasons as a starter, and were much happier when 45% becamse some number to focus on that means more than anything else. I feel you.

As for what HDV or whatever his name is was sayin last page, 8.9-19.6 per game. We weren't making anything up, it's 1 shot from 50% or anything like that, those are the numbers averaged out for his entire career. 8.9-19.6 As I said rather clearly in my post, a shot and a half per game. And I stated simply, factoring in the amount of last second shot clock shots, and the obligatory what are you doing shots that we hate, there's your difference. There's your 1.5 extra shots he shouldn't be taking and suddenly his shooting percentage isn't as atrocious as you want everyone to believe. If for some reason you feel that is the most important number on Kobe's resume to complain about, then that's fine, you have a legit complaint. I'll go ahead and take the rest of his numbers and be over here.

 

[nako xl]

This thread bores me now. We got dudes bringing up half court heaves now ***** amazing.

Oh no... don't go...

 

[akajae]

My dude Kobe bout to reach 100 pages...

 

[jayfiend]

My dude Kobe bout to reach 100 pages...

Kobe obviously broke a lot of dudes hearts these last 17 years.

In my 7 years on NT I have never seen a thread like this.

It really is remarkable.

I don't know is Kobe is overrated. But I know he has made his mark on the game. Dudes have their hate or love for him down to a science

 

[denni5themenace]

for you guys who think that last minute buzzer beaters aren't important in relation to one's shooting %

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...es-doesn-t-want-chuck-low-220357263--nba.html

Kevin Durant on taking buzzer beaters:

“It depends on what I’m shooting from the field. First quarter if I’m 4-for-4, I let it go. Third quarter if I’m like 10-for-16, or 10-for-17, I might let it go. But if I’m like 8-for-19, I’m going to go ahead and dribble one more second and let that buzzer go off and then throw it up there. So it depends on how the game’s going.”

oh.

 

[CP1708]

So to recap, both LeBron and Durant worry about their %'s, so they won't even attempt to get a shot up whereas Kobe could care less and will throw prayers up.

You certainly don't need to praise Kobe for throwing up prayers, but to knock on his percentages that include those prayers is rather narrow minded.

Can he shoot? That's the question. He has range, good from either side, baseline, mid range, the post, top of the key, basically he can hit shots from anywhere on the floor, yes? He's proven this in his 17 years, yes? But if he hit 1 more shot per game and was 47% for his career, then he wouldn't be overrated? Cuz Magic shot 50% for his career, and he can't make shots from all those areas Kobe can.

Or are you (HDV dude) saying he has to get 28/5/5 with elite defense AND shoot 50% just to belong in the top 10-15? Those are your requirements?

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Do we have any empirical proof that Kobe ALWAYS takes the end of quarter shots?

I know the NBA had those hot zone things a few years back.

 

[CP1708]

We aren't talking just end of Q. Those + end of shot clock shots.

You never seen Kobe take a shot at the end of a Q tho? You have to have stats in front of you to show you something?

I'm sure there's a stat somewhere out there.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

We aren't talking just end of Q. Those + end of shot clock shots.

You never seen Kobe take a shot at the end of a Q tho? You have to have stats in front of you to show you something?

I'm sure there's a stat somewhere out there.

Dude above me posted a quote where Durant spoke on a quote that stated he doesn't take end of quarter buzzer beaters.

That isn't the same as end of shot clock which I have seen Durant hit on my Mavs all the time.

 

[5am6oody72]

While shot selection is obviously a valid criticism of Kobe's game, I agree with CP that the raw FG% is not always the best indicator of how good a shooter the player is or even how efficiently they score.

Lets say when I go out I hit on all types of women, nickels and dimes. I strike out most of the time with the 9's and 10's but I still pull my fair share. Meanwhile my friend is cool with being a realist so he never approaches girls that are above a 7-8. He's probably gonna have a higher success rate than me, but that doesnt necessarily mean hes better with the ladies than I am, just that he picks and chooses his spots more carefully and doesnt wanna fail.I'm casting a wider net and aiming higher, and we end up pulling the same number of girls.

Kobe, for better or worse at times, will do whatever he thinks will get a W. He doesn't give two flips about what his shooting percentage is; if he thinks taking an off balance 3 gives him a better chance to win than Luke Walton shooting, he's gonna do that regardless of what his % is. Does he do it to a fault sometimes? Definitely, but I think that mentality certainly results in a lower shooting percentage that isn't necessarily indicative if how good a shooter he is.

He has shot the Lakers out of games for sure, but he's also carried them to wins solely off of high difficulty shots. Recall the series against the Suns when Kobe patted Alvin Gentry on the butt; he torched them that series with mostly jump shots that were well-defended. Lebron, due to a variety of factors (physical dominance, unselfishness, better supporting cast on the Heat) takes those types of shots far less often so naturally his % will be higher. While he's always shot a good % and been an efficient player, he never sniffed 55% when he was on the Cavs and forced to carry a heavier load.

So IMO, while it is definitely valid to pick on Kobe for his shot selection at times, his FG % being what it is isn't really as much of a knock on his ability to shoot/score effectively (and ultimately win games ) as some would make it out to be.

 

[denni5themenace]

by posting that article i intended to show you that players are conscious of their shooting % and protect it when possible. i don't think kobe gives a **** about his shooting %

the point stands that its a difference of one made shot. that shot could be at the end of the quarter buzzer beater, or a bail out shot at the end of a shot clock - which the lakers get stuck with A LOT (like i already stated that this happens for a number of reasons - some you can even attribute to kobe's fault)

for you to single out the shooting % and look at it just in black and white, and make it a huge slight at kobe is narrow minded. like i said, splitting hairs.

 

[5am6oody72]

While shot selection is obviously a valid criticism of Kobe's game, I agree with CP that the raw FG% is not always the best indicator of how good a shooter the player is or even how efficiently they score.

Lets say when I go out I hit on all types of women, nickels and dimes. I strike out most of the time with the 9's and 10's but I still pull my fair share. Meanwhile my friend is cool with being a realist so he never approaches girls that are above a 7-8. He's probably gonna have a higher success rate than me, but that doesnt necessarily mean hes better with the ladies than I am, just that he picks and chooses his spots more carefully and doesnt wanna fail.I'm casting a wider net and aiming higher, and we end up pulling the same number of girls.

Kobe, for better or worse at times, will do whatever he thinks will get a W. He doesn't give two flips about what his shooting percentage is; if he thinks taking an off balance 3 gives him a better chance to win than Luke Walton shooting, he's gonna do that regardless of what his % is. Does he do it to a fault sometimes? Definitely, but I think that mentality certainly results in a lower shooting percentage that isn't necessarily indicative if how good a shooter he is.

He has shot the Lakers out of games for sure, but he's also carried them to wins solely off of high difficulty shots. Recall the series against the Suns when Kobe patted Alvin Gentry on the butt; he torched them that series with mostly jump shots that were well-defended. Lebron, due to a variety of factors (physical dominance, unselfishness, better supporting cast on the Heat) takes those types of shots far less often so naturally his % will be higher. While he's always shot a good % and been an efficient player, he never sniffed 55% when he was on the Cavs and forced to carry a heavier load.

So IMO, while it is definitely valid to pick on Kobe for his shot selection at times, his FG % being what it is isn't really as much of a knock on his ability to shoot/score effectively (and ultimately win games ) as some would make it out to be.

 

[JD617]

Lets say when I go out I hit on all types of women, nickels and dimes. I strike out most of the time with the 9's and 10's but I still pull my fair share. Meanwhile my friend is cool with being a realist so he never approaches girls that are above a 7-8. He's probably gonna have a higher success rate than me, but that doesnt necessarily mean hes better with the ladies than I am, just that he picks and chooses his spots more carefully and doesnt wanna fail.I'm casting a wider net and aiming higher, and we end up pulling the same number of girls.

This analogy would make sense if there was a set limit on the number of girls you were allowed to hit on. Striking out with the ladies doesn't matter because whether you make an approach and fail or don't make an approach at all, the end result is the same and you can just move on to the next one with no penalty. Unless you take it too far and get hit with a restraining order or some **** (*Wee-Bey face*). In the NBA you have about 90-94 possessions to work with and it's all about how well you can manage those possessions.

(This thread has taken an interesting turn though.)

 

[CP1708]

(This thread has taken an interesting turn though.)

I want to make clear, by no means am I trying to say that simply because he takes and misses some wild end of Q or shot clock shots should he be absolved from the FG% question entirely. No question he should be told to tone down on shots at times. No doubt. But also remember, he played under a coach that absolutely controlled everything with his team, and he in fact did back Kobe several times on shot selection. Call me crazy, but Phil's word means more to me than a lot of folks in here. Now, the flip side to that could be Phil didn't want to piss Kobe off, etc etc. True, duly noted. But one way or another, if Phil was pissed about the shots Kobe was taking, he would make it known somehow. Thru media, other players, other coaches, Jeanie Buss, somebody. Phil mastered that stuff.

(Note, I mean as a whole, please don't quote Phil for a single game or something like that, I mean over the course of years coaching him)

But my main point to the FG% part is why is THAT stat, of ALL of the stats that Kobe has amassed mean so damn much suddenly? MJ is 6, 30, 72, 63, 5, 6. Numbers that matter in a grand scheme. Nowhere, and I mean no where do I ever see anyone mention MJ's shooting percentage.

But with Kobe, we want to use that to the nth degree to discredit him? I don't buy that. Fair criticism, sure, absolutely, be all end all number that knocks Kobe down from #__ all time to mid 20's or 30's or whatever, no, no way.


*This is going to be bad.*

This morning on Dan Patrick show, Dan interviews Stacey King. Former Bull, played with Mike, now a broadcaster. King mentioned that MJ is THEE guy against all are compared to who, he is the best player to play, the model. No question.

Dan asked him, if there was no MJ, would Kobe be the model then? King said yes. But sorry, there is an MJ, so it is what it is.

Now, I know that will lead to "HE'S OVERRATED, SEE? SEE? SEE?!!!!!"

They were not saying Kobe is greater than Kareem, or Russell, or whomever as in ranked #2 all time, they were talking the mold, the guy that could do everything on the court, whereas Shaq isn't reboundin, runnin down court, takin you off the dribble and drainin 3's on you. The point is, where some of you have him with Kidd, Pierce, JR Smith, Tony Parker, etc, guys who work in the industry, that have followed the NBA for 50+ years, or 40+ in King's case, and have played the game, they have Kobe much higher than that.

If he's "overrated" because his field goal percentage isn't as clean as some other guys, and he played with Shaq, then I'm sorry, that doesn't hold water compared to all of the accomplishments he has amassed along the way.

JD, while you're here, would you know where to find an end of clock shooting statistic? Not just end of game tho, like end of Q1, halftime, etc. Where would I even look for that? Last 10 seconds of a quarter dot come?