Can We Have A Serious, Mature Discussion on Abortion?

DCAllAfrican said:
^ Them doing EVERYTHING in their power to find ways to NOT call an aborted baby a LIVING being is hilarious.

This comment from one of the videos stood out

"YouTube has been showing me a lot of videos of this woman and it’s a completely different environment when there is a woman (specially a mom as she is) answering questions regarding this theme. I totally respect the way she does, the respect she have for this girls and the truly concerns she shows to have about their future. And I have to say, totally respect for the girls who genuinely debate because they believe they’re in the right side. Sad thing that nowadays much of the people defend things they don’t even believe but they just want to be part of a cause."

A lot of the students run to the same arguments. :lol:

"A Clump of Cells"
"Not self sufficient"

She is cooking those folks man.

Villanova looked sad LOL -

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While I have no problems with abortions. College students 9/10 times are the weakest links to support your cause in a debate.

No matter the subject most times I see a conversation on a controversial subject with college students they end up getting worked.
 
Sky Daddy wants you to bring your inbred baby into this world where conditions are increasingly in decline while he sits around and does nothing about it.

It's true.

God lets millions of kids go hungry, homeless, succumb to disease, no access to clean water, etc. every day. I can't imagine why he'd raise a big stink about having an abortion.

Why are you sharing this lady's videos?
 
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NToweG said:
23 page report? Nah

got NOtes before I jump off this CLiff?
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It's an easy read.

Numbers are scattered throughout, but some things that stood out:

*Since the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision, over fifty-four million babies have been aborted i in centers around the nation

*Dis-proportionally, the leading consumer of the abortionists’ services is the African-American female. According to the 2011 Abortion Surveillance Report issued by the Center for Disease Control, black women make up 14 percent of the childbearing population, yet obtained 36.2 percent of reported abortions. Black women have the highest abortion ratio in the country, with 474 abortions per 1,000 live births. Percentages at these levels illustrate that more than 19 million black babies have been aborted since 1973.iv

*According to the Departments of Public Health of every state that reports abortion by ethnicity; black women disproportionately lead in the numbers. For example, in Mississippi, 79 percent of abortions are obtained by black women; in Washington, D.C., more than 60 percent; in Georgia, 59.4 percent; in Alabama, 58.4 percent. In state after state, similar numbers are found, with black women aborting at two, three or more times their presence in the population. At every income level, black women have higher abortion rates than Whites or Hispanics, except for women below the poverty line, where Hispanic women have slightly higher rates than black women. v


But again, it's an easy read.
 
DCAllAfrican said:
It's an easy read.

Numbers are scattered throughout, but some things that stood out:

*Since the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision, over fifty-four million babies have been aborted i in centers around the nation

*Dis-proportionally, the leading consumer of the abortionists’ services is the African-American female. According to the 2011 Abortion Surveillance Report issued by the Center for Disease Control, black women make up 14 percent of the childbearing population, yet obtained 36.2 percent of reported abortions. Black women have the highest abortion ratio in the country, with 474 abortions per 1,000 live births. Percentages at these levels illustrate that more than 19 million black babies have been aborted since 1973.iv

*According to the Departments of Public Health of every state that reports abortion by ethnicity; black women disproportionately lead in the numbers. For example, in Mississippi, 79 percent of abortions are obtained by black women; in Washington, D.C., more than 60 percent; in Georgia, 59.4 percent; in Alabama, 58.4 percent. In state after state, similar numbers are found, with black women aborting at two, three or more times their presence in the population. At every income level, black women have higher abortion rates than Whites or Hispanics, except for women below the poverty line, where Hispanic women have slightly higher rates than black women. v


But again, it's an easy read.
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This is simply a symptom of a larger issue at play.

Black women have fewer opportunities than other women to advance and earn a decent living. Despite being the third most educated group, they are the second largest group to live in poverty. You combine that with the way law enforcement unfairly targets black males and the inequality they face when it’s time for sentencing, you can quickly begin to understand why black women would turn to abortion more often than others.

Spotlight on Women of Color: Poverty & Opportunity Data - Women in the States

Spotlight on Women of Color: Poverty & Opportunity Data Percent with Health Insurance by Race and Ethnicity, United States, 2013 Highest Level of Educational Attainment by Race and Ethnicity , United States, 2013 Percent Living in Poverty by Race and Ethnicity, United States, 2013 Poverty and...
statusofwomendata.org statusofwomendata.org

 
There are some abnormal pregnancies for which there are only two outcomes: abortion or death of the mother. This alone should be THE reason abortion can't be made illegal. Ireland repealed their abortion ban after doctors left a pregnant woman to die (they couldn't help her get rid a fetus that was rotting in her womb without facing legal repercussions).

Contraceptives are not 100% effective, and the solution is not abstinence.

In the political thread, I posted about the impact of the combination of abortion bans and inadequately funded social services on the mental development of those children in Romania; adoption/foster care doesn't work. We can't deal with the kids that are already in the system; let us have more of them!

And for those who draw their opposition to abortion on religious grounds, the bible prescribes an abortion challenge performed by priests in case a woman is suspected of adultery and gets pregnant as a result.

DCAllAfrican said:
It's an easy read.

Numbers are scattered throughout, but some things that stood out:

*Since the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision, over fifty-four million babies have been aborted i in centers around the nation

*Dis-proportionally, the leading consumer of the abortionists’ services is the African-American female. According to the 2011 Abortion Surveillance Report issued by the Center for Disease Control, black women make up 14 percent of the childbearing population, yet obtained 36.2 percent of reported abortions. Black women have the highest abortion ratio in the country, with 474 abortions per 1,000 live births. Percentages at these levels illustrate that more than 19 million black babies have been aborted since 1973.iv

*According to the Departments of Public Health of every state that reports abortion by ethnicity; black women disproportionately lead in the numbers. For example, in Mississippi, 79 percent of abortions are obtained by black women; in Washington, D.C., more than 60 percent; in Georgia, 59.4 percent; in Alabama, 58.4 percent. In state after state, similar numbers are found, with black women aborting at two, three or more times their presence in the population. At every income level, black women have higher abortion rates than Whites or Hispanics, except for women below the poverty line, where Hispanic women have slightly higher rates than black women. v


But again, it's an easy read.
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60% of abortions are requested by women who already have kids. Taking care of children takes money and time, and those who don't have either are more likely to not want children.

Furthermore, the solution to this state of affairs has always been known: comprehensive sex ed programs (not the abstinence-only BS religious folks love to parrot), easy and cheap access to contraceptives (it wasn't that long ago that a prescription was needed to buy condoms in the US), properly funding healthcare, properly funding early childhood education, properly funding the social safety net, reform the family laws that seek to punish the father beyond reasonable levels (in cases where parents are not together). Implement these solutions, and the rate of unwelcome pregnancies and the rates of abortion go down.

With regards to yesterday's leak, Alito's position about the right to have an abortion not being a deeply rooted (by his definition) right is ahistorical if we go by how long ago the practice was accepted in this country:
www.cnn.com

The surprising history of abortion in the United States | CNN

Abortion was once simply part of life in the United States. Then, for about 100 years, it was illegal. How we got there and got to where we are now may surprise you.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
There was a time when abortion was simply part of life in the United States. People didn’t scream about it in protest, and services were marketed openly.
https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/health/zika-abortions-latin-america/index.html
Drugs to induce abortions were a booming business. They were advertised in newspapers and could be bought from pharmacists, from physicians and even through the mail. If drugs didn’t work, women could visit practitioners for instrumental procedures.

The earliest efforts to govern abortions centered on concerns about poisoning, not morality, religion or politics. It was the mid-19th century, long before abortion became the hot-button issue it is now.

All of this is according to historian Leslie Reagan, whose 1996 book on abortion history in the United States is considered one of the most comprehensive to date.
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Prior to the mid 1800s, women could just go to the doc and get it done. Alitos argument that the 14th amendment (unenumerated Rights) doesn't apply to abortion is based on the fact that abortion was in the process of being restricted/criminalized at the time the 14th amendment was passed (1880s, IIRC). It denies the reality that it was something legally practiced in the US for a long time.

This is all about control.
 
Unless I’ve missed some posts, it seems most people are generally against an all-out ban on abortions. There should absolutely be exceptions to any abortion restrictions for medical reasons, incest, and/or rape.

Personally, I think that an abortion after the first trimester is essentially murder barring one of those exceptions.
 
gry60 said:
And for those who draw their opposition to abortion on religious grounds, the bible prescribes an abortion challenge performed by priests in case a woman is suspected of adultery and gets pregnant as a result.
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I'm just here to provide biblical accuracy, and this is incorrect.

The scripture you are referencing is Numbers 5:21-28, the test for adultry.

If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children. -Num 5:27-28 NIV

The italicized word is a mistranslation found ONLY, I believe, in the NIV. For example:
and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. - KJV
and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people. -ESV

In the hebrew, says: יָרֵך נָפַל or yarek naphal - thigh fall away/fail/rot

It doesn't have anything to do with aborting a living child. Its a test of fidelity where if you are found unfaithful, it bares a curse where you become barren and cannot have children- hens rotting. But if you have remained faithful, then you can still have children. The context of the passage illustrates this. All other translations depict this accurately. One of the hebrew words for miscarry is nephel (which is from the root naphal), which is not found in the book of Numbers.
 
dwalk31 said:
Unless I’ve missed some posts, it seems most people are generally against an all-out ban on abortions. There should absolutely be exceptions to any abortion restrictions for medical reasons, incest, and/or rape.

Personally, I think that an abortion after the first trimester is essentially murder barring one of those exceptions.
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So what would you call an abortion that takes place during the first trimester?

Legit asking.
 
DCAllAfrican said:
So what would you call an abortion that takes place during the first trimester?

Legit asking.
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I’d call it an abortion that takes place during the first trimester.

The point of the second trimester/third trimester thing is because I think reasonable people can disagree on at what point it becomes more like murder (with those on the extremes saying it always is or it never is).

At the ultrasounds they show you the heartbeat, legs, arms, hands, feet, head, etc. I believe that happens during the second trimester. After that, it’s more like murder—to me.

By the way, this trimester framework is in Roe. I think that some people mistakenly think Roe ok’d abortion in any circumstance no matter what—it didn’t. It left a lot to the states in the second and third trimester.
 
dreamer23 said:
interesting use of the term "murder" in this thread.
I was led to believe a murderer is someone convicted by the court for a killing.


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You’re conflating a murderer with the act of murder.

The act is more like murder—to me. But no one is a murderer unless they are convicted of murder.

Feticide, just so you know, is a form of homicide that is considered murder in the majority of states. It is not the same as abortion. But it impacts the same life.
 
Mark Antony said:
If you're pro-life, a portion of your income should go to the complete care of children that were deterred from abortion.
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Doesn’t a portion of the income of most people that pay taxes go to this is some form?

I’m pro-life, and I don’t mind an additional tax for that at all.
 
I'm reading twitter and someone said to stop using gendered language like "women's rights" and "women's bodies". Shut up. It doesn't need to be said but people are referring to the female sex, the ones who are biologically able to get pregnant.
 
shogun said:
I'm reading twitter and someone said to stop using gendered language like "women's rights" and "women's bodies". Shut up. It doesn't need to be said but people are referring to the female sex, the ones who are biologically able to get pregnant.
Click to expand...

I think you do have to be careful with the language. Transgender men and/or non-binary persons can also get pregnant.
 
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