2014 NBA Draft Thread

Ya'll gotta stop with the "100 times more athletic" comments. Livingston was not considered to be that athletic coming into the draft, so I KNOW he's not THAT much more athletic than Kyle at this point. Get that 30 inch max vertical out of here :lol:

Now, MCW's foot speed is much quicker, but I don't see Livingston being as quick after the knee injury.

You can teach defense. Its not something that you have or don't have. There will be some guys just way too fast for Kyle to guard, but defense is about effort. He has the length to be pretty effective if he gives the right effort. I'm more concerned with his strength than foot speed. Allow him to get stronger, play for a good defensive coach and use his 7'2, 7'3 wingspan, he can be decent.
 
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bhzmafia14 said:
Ya'll gotta stop with the "100 times more athletic" comments. Livingston was not considered to be that athletic coming into the draft, so I KNOW he's not THAT much more athletic than Kyle at this point. Get that 30 inch max vertical out of here
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Now, MCW's foot speed is much quicker, but I don't see Livingston being as quick after the knee injury.

You can teach defense. Its not something that you have or don't have. There will be some guys just way too fast for Kyle to guard, but defense is about effort. He has the length to be pretty effective if he gives the right effort.
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The fact that you're relying on max verts to measure athleticism says it all. Livingston was a MUCH better athlete than Anderson coming out of high school. 

And the "you can teach defense" thing is complete garbage. Just like some guys have a feel for scoring the ball, some guys have a feel for defending. Positioning, lateral ability, hand quickness, awareness, etc., there are some guys who just naturally have these things. There are also guys who have defensive tools (good foot speed, good length, etc.) and a strong defensive coach works to make them a better defender. You have Tony Allen on your roster. He has some defensive tools that cannot be taught to others that are based on his natural abilities. I don't know why people really think that defense is so easy to learn.
 
What I see in that video aside from pretty good defense by Gordon is Kyle getting to the spots he wants to get to, just missing shots. He also forced alot once he got to the paint (where he could have kicked it out) which I didnt like. On the defensive end he cant guard players stronger than him.
 
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DaComeUP said:
The fact that you're relying on max verts to measure athleticism says it all. Livingston was a MUCH better athlete than Anderson coming out of high school. 

And the "you can teach defense" thing is complete garbage. Just like some guys have a feel for scoring the ball, some guys have a feel for defending. Positioning, lateral ability, hand quickness, awareness, etc., there are some guys who just naturally have these things. There are also guys who have defensive tools (good foot speed, good length, etc.) and a strong defensive coach works to make them a better defender. You have Tony Allen on your roster. He has some defensive tools that cannot be taught to others that are based on his natural abilities. I don't know why people really think that defense is so easy to learn.
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Max vert is not all that matters when looking at athleticism, but that's key component people look at it. I think Anderson has pretty good anticipation skills and his length makes it easier for him to get deflections. Its really hard to gauge his ability on that end because he's unlike a lot of other slow, unathletic players that have came into the league. Guys like Vasquez and Calathes for example, have much shorter wingspans. If you lack foot speed, athleticism AND length, your chances of being a good defender will probably be bulking up to defend bigger guards in the post.

I think Anderson has pretty good anticipation and the length is there. Defensive awareness is something that can improve, anticipation/hand quickness is something that can be improve, positioning as well. But, straight up lateral quickness, athleticism, etc. are mainly God given abilities (which is something TA has).

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That video is a good example of Kyle being defended by an athletic player. What he does is no different than Andre Miller. If you have a great handle, good instincts and a high bball IQ, you WILL get to your spots. Very few players in today's game today to read your every move with the basketball.

Looking at the things that concern me the most...

- 3 point shooting for when he does play off the ball at times. can he spot up and make the open 3?
- effort. is he one of those players that lacks effort? if he has effort, he can improve on some of his weaknesses
- strength. he needs to bulk up a little bit, which will help him against stronger perimeter players. may also allow him to play stretch 4

- turnover prone. will he be a player that will always be prone to turnovers or can he improve in that category with more experience?
 
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Everything can "improve". The question is by how much? Will he improve enough to be a plus defender? Highly doubt it. Anticipation, hand speed, awareness are all talents that some guys just have as well. 
 
Maybe I like Anderson from my team's standpoint only because we desperately need playmaking and scoring at the SG/SF positions. I'm more confident in finding a scorer via free agency or trade than a playmaker. Playmakers are just hard to find in today's game and Anderson may be our best bet at getting one at #22.
 
Don't know how i feel. Nothing really leaks out of our FO
@chadfordinsider: Heard the same RT @rick_bonnell: I think the Hornets might be high on Doug McDermott for the 9th pick. Nothing firm, but an indication.
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Osh Kosh Bosh said:
The athleticism concerns it isn't about the offense, its about the defense.
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Meh, this is the NBA we're talking about. If he could offset his deficiencies with is offensive output, he would be fine. Offense is valued higher than defense in the grand scope of player evaluations. The issue is whether or not he can be a productive player on the offensive side of the ball, and I don't think he will be. Don't think he'll be enough of a knockdown shooter or a good enough shot creator to be offensively effective. Plus, if he doesn't go to a team that allows him to have the ball in a point forward role, he won't be in the NBA for long.
 
btw it's a joke to compare Kyle Anderson's athleticism to Livingston's. Livingston is fast enough to play the 1 and the 2 with absolutely no problems on offense or defense. He does it with absolutely no 3pt shooting ability. The guy, even post-knee injury is a really good athlete. He's 6'7, can guard 1-3 really well, and lives in the paint. There's literally no comparison between Kyle/Livingston.
 
Anderson might be slow but he's still an extremely skilled basketball player that gets to anywhere on the floor he wants regardless of his athleticism. Dude put up ridiculous numbers all year and it was like there wasn't a peep about him. If he goes to a good team with some staples in place and a smart coach that knows how to use him he'll be a really good player in the NBA.

Grizzlies, Warriors and Mavericks would be a few good fits for him.
 
shoeking2101 said:
Meh, this is the NBA we're talking about. If he could offset his deficiencies with is offensive output, he would be fine. Offense is valued higher than defense in the grand scope of player evaluations. The issue is whether or not he can be a productive player on the offensive side of the ball, and I don't think he will be. Don't think he'll be enough of a knockdown shooter or a good enough shot creator to be offensively effective. Plus, if he doesn't go to a team that allows him to have the ball in a point forward role, he won't be in the NBA for long.
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Yeah this is the NBA where defense is incredibly important.

Especially in this place called the playoffs, where you win this thing called a championship.

You can't hide bad defenders in the playoffs, I like Kyle Anderson as a high level second unit primary ball handler, who you hide on a big with no post game but starting on a good team? A team that wants to win a championship? Nah, can't hide him., can't do it.



This stuff about how defense doesn't matter is crazy, its like people aren't watching the same game I've been watching, the demands on defenders are greater than they ever have been in the history of the league, the 60 year history of this game tells you you can't win a chip without an elite defense. Why do people have this idea that D doesn't matter or isn't as important as offense is just crazy to me.
 
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Osh Kosh Bosh said:
Yeah this is the NBA where defense is incredibly important.

Especially in this place called the playoffs, where you win this thing called a championship.

You can't hide bad defenders in the playoffs, I like Kyle Anderson as a high level second unit primary ball handler, who you hide on a big with no post game but starting on a good team? A team that wants to win a championship? Nah, can't hide him., can't do it.



This stuff about how defense doesn't matter is crazy, its like people aren't watching the same game I've been watching, the demands on defenders are greater than they ever have been in the history of the league, the 60 year history of this game tells you you can't win a chip without an elite defense. Why do people have this idea that D doesn't matter or isn't as important as offense is just crazy to me.
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No one is saying defense isn't important (or at least I'm not). What I'm saying is that one perimeter player does not make up a teams ability to defend. For example, Memphis started Tayshaun Prince and Zach Randolph this year. Prince was a terrible defender regardless of what his past accomplishments had him and we all know Zbo was even worse. Where did the Grizz rank in defensive efficiency this season? They were one of the top defensive teams in the league and had two high level defenders (Conley,Gasol) , a competent defender (Courtney Lee) starting and the best wing defender in the NBA, Tony Allen. The reason why we lost was not because Prince was a terrible defender, but because he couldn't produce **** offensively. We didn't lose because Zbo could not defend,...he was producing inefficient results on the offensive end. We had no playmaking.

Every player in your starting five does not have to be an average or above average defender. I just went on a rant about how you have defensive liabilities making All-NBA teams. Your concern for Kyle is on the defensive end, when my concern is the offensive end. The offensive end is where he will make his name and that's what I'm more concerned about.

If Anderson goes to a team that needs defense, then sure he's a terrible fit. Him going to one of the best defensive teams in the league, though? A team that needs playmaking in the worst way? Sign me up, if he's able to translate his skillset to the NBA. I'm strictly talking about Anderson from the viewpoint of being a Grizz or playing for another elite level defensive team.
 
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You watch Memphis way more than most but you're definitely underrating Tayshaun's defensive value. Maybe he's not a guy that can lock people up in isolations anymore but that doesn't mean he's a terrible defender. I think the issue is that you're looking at defense as only a 1v1 thing instead of a team thing. You can put average defenders (like ZBo) on elite defensive teams and not really miss a bit - but you can't throw liabilities out there without screwing everything up.

There are different levels to bad defense. For example, Prince may not be locking down KD or LBJ anymore but you can bet he's not making many mistakes out there and that he's playing within the team scheme of the defense. He's not giving up open shots or not helping out and giving up layups. If he did, he'd get benched really fast and that Memphis D would turn into trash.

Guys like Harden are a different story because 1. they have a ton of offensive responsibility, so a team can live with that sort of non-sense and 2. they have the athleticism to play defense, they just lack the focus or desire. Kobe's gotten to this level too.
 
Osh Kosh Bosh said:
Yeah this is the NBA where defense is incredibly important.

Especially in this place called the playoffs, where you win this thing called a championship.

You can't hide bad defenders in the playoffs, I like Kyle Anderson as a high level second unit primary ball handler, who you hide on a big with no post game but starting on a good team? A team that wants to win a championship? Nah, can't hide him., can't do it.



This stuff about how defense doesn't matter is crazy, its like people aren't watching the same game I've been watching, the demands on defenders are greater than they ever have been in the history of the league, the 60 year history of this game tells you you can't win a chip without an elite defense. Why do people have this idea that D doesn't matter or isn't as important as offense is just crazy to me.
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It's not like I don't value defense highly, I do. I'm speaking in terms of the general basketball populous. If you're good on offense, a lot of people will overlook your decencies on defense. It's why guys like Harden, Melo, Steph Curry, Blake Griffin, K Love, are all considered top 10, 15 players in the league and they are awful. If defense was valued as highly as offense guys like Tony Allen would be just as great of commodities as Steph Curry and they aren't. Quite simply, the league doesn't resonate with the notion that Great defense = Great offense, but rather Great Offense > Great defense.

That's why If Kyle can find a way to produce on the offensive side of the ball (I don't think he will) he'll be able to find a niche in the league as a point forward for someone's second unit. He'll always be a liability on defense though..a huge one which is why it's so much pressure on him to be a good, competent offensive player.
 
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It's why guys like Harden, Melo, Steph Curry, Blake Griffin, K Love, are all considered top 10, 15 players in the league and they are awful
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Also why you've yet to see any of them anywhere near a Finals, which is what Osh is trying to tell you.


You can't hide bad defenders in the playoffs
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CP1708 said:
Also why you've yet to see any of them anywhere near a Finals, which is what Osh is trying to tell you.
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But I am not arguing whether or not you need elite defense to win in the league. That's common sense. Recent history will tell you that.

But what I am saying is that if you're an awful defender, depending on how you compensate for that on offense, you will be looked at in a more favorable light. Like I said, there's a reason why those guys are considered elite, despite being completely awful on one side of the ball. Kyle Anderson could be (and probably will be) a god awful defender in the league, but if he produces on offense? People will look and speak very favorably on him. Just ask yourself where guys who have the complete opposite ratio end up during the draft. Where do you think guys who, instead of being great on offense, are great on defense, and awful on offense end up? (Particularly wings) That's my point.
 
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