yungchamp
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a.i. come on ppl lets not get carried away...nash is nice don't get me wrong but look at all the players he's had around him in his career..a.i. hasbeen doing it by himself for awhile
You have one vote for the HOF, Nash or AI?
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by feasting horns,
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at first glance.. i thought this would be a tough one. but after a few minutes of thought.
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A.I., no question. he changed the game for little guys. arguably the best 6' and under guard there will EVER be.
one of the toughest players ive ever seen, especially because of how small he is.
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A.I., no question. he changed the game for little guys. arguably the best 6' and under guard there will EVER be.
one of the toughest players ive ever seen, especially because of how small he is.
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Doesn't his success as the centerpiece in Phoenix punch a giant hole in that theory?
Does his decline in production outside of D'Antoni's system do anything to support your case? And he's playing essentially the sameminutes...
His shooting percentages are way down... His points are down... His assists are down... Turnovers on pace for a career high...
You take away those years in the D'Antoni system and Steve just isn't a great player... He's looked like the Dallas Mavericks Steve Nash thisseason... And sorry, that ain't a great player...
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/thread....
Nash had tons more talent and never got to the NBA Finals...Iverson had one of the worst collection of teammates in Phillyand got them to the NBA Finals...
*sigh*
Downtown already ended this thread imo.
Bottom line, Nash is a system guy. Put Nash in Philly with Bell, McKie, Deke, and Ty Hill, and what does Nash do for that team? Not a damn thing.
Put AI with (ironically) Bell again
Nash can't get any team to the finals. In fact, for all his "greatness", the Mavs went to the finals the year Nash LEFT the team, and the Sunswere beaten by...........The Mavs.
I think I'm done here, I'm going back to the lab to work on all my material for the day Steve is inducted.
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A.I.>Nash
but like a few said, they both get in and deservedly so.
but like a few said, they both get in and deservedly so.
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For everyone who said "I'd go with Nash"....and there have been a few of you....Id love to hear you back up your opinion. So far, everyone whohas said Nash has left it at that. Id love to hear someone give reasons as to why he deserves it more than AI.
Ive been going to NBA games for 2 decades, and Nash is hands down the worst defensive player I have ever seen.
Ive been going to NBA games for 2 decades, and Nash is hands down the worst defensive player I have ever seen.
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Not even close
only thing Nash has on AI is 1 more MVP
AI helped revolutionize bball, went to the finals, was a scoring champ numerous times, also was a steals/minutes leader a few times, played with more heartthan anyone of recent memory, i believe he has way more all-star appearences than Nash and 2 All-Star MVPs amongst numerous other things.
If Nash didnt have 2 MVPs he would not be anywhere near a 1st ballot halloffamer, his career #s are not that impressive at all like AI's.
If Nash had won a Championship this could maybe be an argument butit would STILL probably be AI, without a ring for eitherof them this argument isnt evenclose. Obviously AI.
only thing Nash has on AI is 1 more MVP
AI helped revolutionize bball, went to the finals, was a scoring champ numerous times, also was a steals/minutes leader a few times, played with more heartthan anyone of recent memory, i believe he has way more all-star appearences than Nash and 2 All-Star MVPs amongst numerous other things.
If Nash didnt have 2 MVPs he would not be anywhere near a 1st ballot halloffamer, his career #s are not that impressive at all like AI's.
If Nash had won a Championship this could maybe be an argument butit would STILL probably be AI, without a ring for eitherof them this argument isnt evenclose. Obviously AI.
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no $#^* man, no $#@*
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Have to go with A.I.
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Originally Posted by CP1708
Put AI with (ironically) Bell again, Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, and do they at least still make it to the west finals? Could they go to the finals? Maybe. AI did it with the Philly cast, no reason he couldn't with this Phoenix cast.
No way. The East was sorry for so long. Even if AI had Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, etc., I still doubt he could make it to the West Finals. It's notlike Denver was crap. It's just that the West is that tough and the East was that crappy back when AI made it.
AI was a system guy too. He works best when the coach surrounds him with players who know that AI is gonna be the #1 option. Or at least 1A. Stick him witha coach that tells him to stop scoring and concentrate primarily on defense and see how he does. THat'd defeat the purpose of AI. It's also whyNash's numbers are down. He's had coaches that emphasized defense too much. Which is also why the last one got fired only 4 months in. If a coachtried to throttle AI's offense back, he'd be fired just the same.
A system still needs good players to execute properly. Otherwise, Phil Jackson's triangle offense would work all the time. Or D'Antoni's Knickswould be near the East lead. You need a system that fits the players and players that fit the system.
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AI
dude played both sides of ball
Top 20 all time in pts
Top 15 all time in steals
dude played both sides of ball
Top 20 all time in pts
Top 15 all time in steals
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^
I doubt Don Nelson preached defense.
I'd have to go with Iverson, Nash in his whole career always had some offensive weapons. Like Nowitzki, Finley, Van Exel, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion etc. Iverson never had a good offensive 2nd option and yet he's still able to win 40+ games with the players given to him.
I doubt Don Nelson preached defense.
I'd have to go with Iverson, Nash in his whole career always had some offensive weapons. Like Nowitzki, Finley, Van Exel, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion etc. Iverson never had a good offensive 2nd option and yet he's still able to win 40+ games with the players given to him.
In the weakest eastern conference ever.
Yeah but he managed to beat your Raptors (Don't know if you're a Raps fan or not, just peeped your avy) and break the Lakers winning streaking in the playoff. No West teamcould've beat them once that year in the playoffs yet a "weak" Eastern conference managed to at least steal one game.
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Does his decline in production outside of D'Antoni's system do anything to support your case? And he's playing essentially the same minutes...
His shooting percentages are way down... His points are down... His assists are down... Turnovers on pace for a career high...
You take away those years in the D'Antoni system and Steve just isn't a great player... He's looked like the Dallas Mavericks Steve Nash this season... And sorry, that ain't a great player...
Nash commented on this when he talked to Bill Simmons, he feels that Porters offense is far more rigid and scripted and he is not allowed to makeas many decisions or just create on the fly.
People always say Dantoni's system and I found very little evidence that it's anything more than a philosophy. Steve Nash was basically asked to makeevery decision on the court and now he was forced into a very rigid scripted plays. When you look at dantoni's "system" his plays never go beyondmore than a pick and roll...I still believe it was more of a philosophy than a system.
The same argument could be made about AI's teams are not successful unless he is allowed to jack up 1000 shots while everybody watches.
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Nash commented on this when he talked to Bill Simmons, he feels that Porters offense is far more rigid and scripted and he is not allowed to make as many decisions or just create on the fly.Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh
Does his decline in production outside of D'Antoni's system do anything to support your case? And he's playing essentially the same minutes...
His shooting percentages are way down... His points are down... His assists are down... Turnovers on pace for a career high...
You take away those years in the D'Antoni system and Steve just isn't a great player... He's looked like the Dallas Mavericks Steve Nash this season... And sorry, that ain't a great player...
People always say Dantoni's system and I found very little evidence that it's anything more than a philosophy. Steve Nash was basically asked to make every decision on the court and now he was forced into a very rigid scripted plays. When you look at dantoni's "system" his plays never go beyond more than a pick and roll...I still believe it was more of a philosophy than a system.
The same argument could be made about AI's teams are not successful unless he is allowed to jack up 1000 shots while everybody watches.
Originally Posted by codex57
Originally Posted by CP1708
Put AI with (ironically) Bell again, Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, and do they at least still make it to the west finals? Could they go to the finals? Maybe. AI did it with the Philly cast, no reason he couldn't with this Phoenix cast.
No way. The East was sorry for so long. Even if AI had Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, etc., I still doubt he could make it to the West Finals. It's not like Denver was crap. It's just that the West is that tough and the East was that crappy back when AI made it.
AI was a system guy too. He works best when the coach surrounds him with players who know that AI is gonna be the #1 option. Or at least 1A. Stick him with a coach that tells him to stop scoring and concentrate primarily on defense and see how he does. THat'd defeat the purpose of AI. It's also why Nash's numbers are down. He's had coaches that emphasized defense too much. Which is also why the last one got fired only 4 months in. If a coach tried to throttle AI's offense back, he'd be fired just the same.
A system still needs good players to execute properly. Otherwise, Phil Jackson's triangle offense would work all the time. Or D'Antoni's Knicks would be near the East lead. You need a system that fits the players and players that fit the system.
Who on Phoenix was going to ask AI to concentrate on D and not shoot?
You tellin me AI wouldn't go off in D'Antoni's system of shoot the second you have the ball past half court? AI wouldn't get along with that?
Ok.
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^ word... i think dude needs to just come out and admit that he's defending Nash b/c he's Canadian or something. i can't see any other possiblereason why dude would even be arguing this.
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Originally Posted by yungmatt
Nash commented on this when he talked to Bill Simmons, he feels that Porters offense is far more rigid and scripted and he is not allowed to make as many decisions or just create on the fly.Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh
Does his decline in production outside of D'Antoni's system do anything to support your case? And he's playing essentially the same minutes...
His shooting percentages are way down... His points are down... His assists are down... Turnovers on pace for a career high...
You take away those years in the D'Antoni system and Steve just isn't a great player... He's looked like the Dallas Mavericks Steve Nash this season... And sorry, that ain't a great player...
People always say Dantoni's system and I found very little evidence that it's anything more than a philosophy. Steve Nash was basically asked to make every decision on the court and now he was forced into a very rigid scripted plays. When you look at dantoni's "system" his plays never go beyond more than a pick and roll...I still believe it was more of a philosophy than a system.
The same argument could be made about AI's teams are not successful unless he is allowed to jack up 1000 shots while everybody watches.
Just so every one knows.
1. AI is my favorite player of all time
2. Like I said in my previous post I do believe AI had a better career.
All I'm saying is that we examine how far the gap really is.
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"System", what system. I don't think AI would be that effective on the suns when he's the point guard when their is Matrix,Stat, and Joe Johnson all who wants shots.Originally Posted by CP1708
Originally Posted by codex57
Originally Posted by CP1708
Put AI with (ironically) Bell again, Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, and do they at least still make it to the west finals? Could they go to the finals? Maybe. AI did it with the Philly cast, no reason he couldn't with this Phoenix cast.
No way. The East was sorry for so long. Even if AI had Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, etc., I still doubt he could make it to the West Finals. It's not like Denver was crap. It's just that the West is that tough and the East was that crappy back when AI made it.
AI was a system guy too. He works best when the coach surrounds him with players who know that AI is gonna be the #1 option. Or at least 1A. Stick him with a coach that tells him to stop scoring and concentrate primarily on defense and see how he does. THat'd defeat the purpose of AI. It's also why Nash's numbers are down. He's had coaches that emphasized defense too much. Which is also why the last one got fired only 4 months in. If a coach tried to throttle AI's offense back, he'd be fired just the same.
A system still needs good players to execute properly. Otherwise, Phil Jackson's triangle offense would work all the time. Or D'Antoni's Knicks would be near the East lead. You need a system that fits the players and players that fit the system.
Who on Phoenix was going to ask AI to concentrate on D and not shoot?
You tellin me AI wouldn't go off in D'Antoni's system of shoot the second you have the ball past half court? AI wouldn't get along with that?
Ok.
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A.I.
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To easy, A.I. by a landslide
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That's so not my point. My point was that Nash has been hamstrung by the coaches after D'Antoni left. Particularly Porter. That'swhy his numbers have gone down.Originally Posted by CP1708
Originally Posted by codex57
Originally Posted by CP1708
Put AI with (ironically) Bell again, Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, and do they at least still make it to the west finals? Could they go to the finals? Maybe. AI did it with the Philly cast, no reason he couldn't with this Phoenix cast.
No way. The East was sorry for so long. Even if AI had Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Barbosa, etc., I still doubt he could make it to the West Finals. It's not like Denver was crap. It's just that the West is that tough and the East was that crappy back when AI made it.
AI was a system guy too. He works best when the coach surrounds him with players who know that AI is gonna be the #1 option. Or at least 1A. Stick him with a coach that tells him to stop scoring and concentrate primarily on defense and see how he does. THat'd defeat the purpose of AI. It's also why Nash's numbers are down. He's had coaches that emphasized defense too much. Which is also why the last one got fired only 4 months in. If a coach tried to throttle AI's offense back, he'd be fired just the same.
A system still needs good players to execute properly. Otherwise, Phil Jackson's triangle offense would work all the time. Or D'Antoni's Knicks would be near the East lead. You need a system that fits the players and players that fit the system.
Who on Phoenix was going to ask AI to concentrate on D and not shoot?
You tellin me AI wouldn't go off in D'Antoni's system of shoot the second you have the ball past half court? AI wouldn't get along with that?
Ok.
He listens to coaches and does what he can to help the team and be a team player. Players like AI, Marbury, etc just aren't like that. You either playthe way they wanna play or you run into problems. No coach would try and limit AI's shots cuz they know he'd never listen. They know Nash would.
Osh Kosh, system/philosophy, whatever. Same difference.
Shootthe ball within 7 seconds. AI would be down with that.
CodeX, I see what you're sayin, but come on with the Nash and holier then thou crap, I've seen plenty of Nash runnin around dribblin thru dudes legs,passin in tight spaces, makin plays. It's not like Porter had him out there in hand cuffs playin basketball. If he listens to the coach so well, why hecan't stop his dude from scorin on him?
And for those that think AI couldn't do well with the Suns with Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Bell, Barbosa, Thomas, and all that crew, the Suns beat the Lakersand the Clippers to get to the west finals. AI couldn't have beaten those two teams??
Now someone answer me what in the blue hell Nash woulda done with McKie, Hill, Deke, and Bell? What would wonderful Mr Nash do with that squad? Would hecarry them to the finals?
Thought not.
CodeX, I see what you're sayin, but come on with the Nash and holier then thou crap, I've seen plenty of Nash runnin around dribblin thru dudes legs,passin in tight spaces, makin plays. It's not like Porter had him out there in hand cuffs playin basketball. If he listens to the coach so well, why hecan't stop his dude from scorin on him?
And for those that think AI couldn't do well with the Suns with Stat, Matrix, Diaw, Bell, Barbosa, Thomas, and all that crew, the Suns beat the Lakersand the Clippers to get to the west finals. AI couldn't have beaten those two teams??
Now someone answer me what in the blue hell Nash woulda done with McKie, Hill, Deke, and Bell? What would wonderful Mr Nash do with that squad? Would hecarry them to the finals?
Thought not.
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CODEX.......Your point is kind of moot anyways bro. Its not the new coaches that have "hamstrung" Nash.....its that no coach other than D'Antonimakes Nash look great. Look at Nash's stats this year, and compare them with his stats every year before D'Antoni. They are IDENTICAL.
