*USA Basketball* WOMEN EARN GOLD v. ESP (101-72)! MEN EARN GOLD v. SRB (96-66)!

[wavycrocket]

^^^^^"Mac blows Kobe out the water"

. See, THIS is the type of sht I'm talking about. I'm a fan of the analytics...but some dudes take it too far.

 

[shoeking2102]

I'm the last guy you wanna have a stat argument for this with man.

Comparing 03 for both players and it's way too obvious.

Kobe PER 26

Mac PER 30


Kobe TS% .550

Mac TS% .564


Kobe rebound rate 9.3

Mac rebound rate 9.5



Kobe assist % 27.2


Mac assist % 30 (which is very telling considering he different in talent they were playing with)



Kobe Win Share Per 48 Mins .210

Mac was .262



And my favorite.


Kobe Offensive Box Plus/Minus was 6.1

Mac Offensive BPM was 9.8


Kobe overall BPM was 6.4

Mac was 9.7.


Kobe Value Over A Replacement Level Player was 7.1

Mac VORP was 8.7


Once you factor in the disparity in talent they were playing with, yea Mac blows Kobe out the water.

Well damn lol, I'm not a analytic guy to this extent, but it's always interesting to see numbers such as these when the numbers are that drastic of a difference.

 

[SORIANOTRON]

tmac had a coo lil run.....

so did gil...

so did vince...

so did a.i.

Honestly you look at cats like MJ, Kob, and LJ....these cats dont have runs....they just keep(t) going

 

[awwsome]

^^^^^"Mac blows Kobe out the water"

. See, THIS is the type of sht I'm talking about. I'm a fan of the analytics...but some dudes take it too far.

He was considerably better with way less, that's blowing out the water to me.

We saw Kobe play with a similar level of talent later when he was dropping 35 ppg with Smush Parker and he wasn't nearly as impressive from an analytical standpoint.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Don't compare tmac to Gil or Vince

Put some respeck on the 2nd round virgins name

 

[SORIANOTRON]

gil was amazing man and 6'4

 

[shoeking2102]

tmac had a coo lil run.....

so did gil...

so did vince...

so did a.i.

Honestly you look at cats like MJ, Kob, and LJ....these cats dont have runs....they just keep(t) going

To keep it a buck, Kobe is closer to Mac / Gil / Vince / Ai than he is to Bron and Jordan to me. He has the rings though which separates him from them and he has the longevity on them as well, which to me is his most impressive feat. That 12'-13' season from Bean was a sight to behold.

However, I genuinely don't feel like Kobe is close to Lebron or Jordan at all. There's a significant difference there when you talk about production, awards, etc. 

 

[Clyde Frog]

I've seen people say prime T-Mac and Kobe was debatable many many times on this board over the years. And I agree its debatable. I'm not sure what changed. In the end Kobe was the better player so whatever.

 

[wavycrocket]

He was considerably better with way less, that's blowing out the water to me.

We saw Kobe play with a similar level of talent later when he was dropping 35 ppg with Smush Parker and he wasn't nearly as impressive from an analytical standpoint.

So now 05-06 Kobe wasn't "nearly as impressive" as 02-03 Tmac?

Cmon mane.

 

[awwsome]

To keep it a buck, Kobe is closer to Mac / Gil / Vince / Ai than he is to Bron and Jordan to me. He has the rings though which separates him from them and he has the longevity on them as well, which to me is his most impressive feat. That 12'-13' season from Bean was a sight to behold.

However, I genuinely don't feel like Kobe is close to Lebron or Jordan at all. There's a significant difference there when you talk about production, awards, etc. 

Absolutely he is closer to those guys, the difference is longevity.


Kobe had a much longer peak and probably would've been even longer if not for the injuries at the end.

 

[MVP]

If you have shaq on your team, you don't have to go full board for the full 48 min. The offense doesn't have to run through you every offensive sequence, which it didn't. Thus, less responsibility offensively by having Shaquille.

You do know Kobe was the literal PG of the Lakers during the 3 peat era right? The offensive objective was of course get the ball to Shaq but he was the initiator 90% of the time so the offense was run through him, he just wasn't charged with finishing every play. Neither was T-Mac either. Especially after that first chip and when Shaq was out with various injuries and out of shape. Oh in addition to that charged with locking down the other teams best perimeter player and that somehow takes LESS energy.

 

[SORIANOTRON]

To keep it a buck, Kobe is closer to Mac / Gil / Vince / Ai than he is to Bron and Jordan to me. He has the rings though which separates him from them and he has the longevity on them as well, which to me is his most impressive feat. That 12'-13' season from Bean was a sight to behold.

However, I genuinely don't feel like Kobe is close to Lebron or Jordan at all. There's a significant difference there when you talk about production, awards, etc. 

I dont know man. LJ playing his whole career on the weak *** east is a big deal to me.....

 

[shoeking2102]

Absolutely he is closer to those guys, the difference is longevity.


Kobe had a much longer peak and probably would've been even longer if not for the injuries at the end.

It's far and away his most amazing feat. If Mike D'antoni wasn't such a D head and found a way to rest Kobe, he may have been able to still put up 23 to 25ppg on 42% to this very day. 

I genuinely believe this too.

 

[awwsome]

So now 05-06 Kobe wasn't "nearly as impressive" as 02-03 Tmac?

Cmon mane.

No he wasn't.

Wasn't as good of a passer/rebounder and didn't create as much as offense while using MORE usage.

His numbers don't stack up to T-Mac that year either.


Mac made his team 5 points better while he was on the floor than Kobe did, it's not close b.

 

[shoeking2102]

You do know Kobe was the literal PG of the Lakers during the 3 peat era right? The offensive objective was of course get the ball to Shaq but he was the initiator 90% of the time so the offense was run through him, he just wasn't charged with finishing every play. Neither was T-Mac either. Especially after that first chip and when Shaq was out with various injuries and out of shape. Oh in addition to that charged with locking down the other teams best perimeter player and that somehow takes LESS energy.

Oh I'm fully aware.

In particular, I remember In 02-03 when LAL was basically out of the playoffs around xmas (partly due to Shaq) before Kobe took over scoring 40 or more 9 straight times I think and 30 or more 15 straight times. 

But in the meat of their run, you can't convince me that playing with Shaq didn't allow for Kobe to be rested enough to be a better defender than T Mac during this era, i'm sorry. 

T Mac definitely had more responsibility man. 

 

[rck3sactown]

Kobe has more rings.

 

[SORIANOTRON]

Mac def would not have had the same run if he played in the west.

Homeboi prolly wouldnt have even made the playoffs

 

[MVP]

Oh I'm fully aware.

In particular, I remember In 02-03 when LAL was basically out of the playoffs around xmas (partly due to Shaq) before Kobe took over scoring 40 or more 9 straight times I think and 30 or more 15 straight times. 

But in the meat of their run, you can't convince me that playing with Shaq didn't allow for Kobe to be rested enough to be a better defender than T Mac during this era, i'm sorry. 

T Mac definitely had more responsibility man. 

You'd have a point if Kobe was putting up 19 a game, he had to put up the same numbers as T-Mac AND be that defender. How is that more responsibility?

 

[shoeking2102]

Again, to keep it a buck, just MO

(I have no dog in this, CP ain't being discussed

)

I'm a fan of analytics. And from the eyeball test, mac and bean were very close so it's kind of telling how when you dive deeper in the numbers, Mac comes out so far ahead.

 

[awwsome]

Kobe has more rings.

How many of those he win by himself?

 

[shoeking2102]

You'd have a point if Kobe was putting up 19 a game, he had to put up the same numbers as T-Mac AND be that defender. How is that more responsibility?

Because one is putting up those numbers w/o Shaq and a far worse team as a whole.

You can be a better defender when you're playing with Shaquille on both sides of the ball. It's not as simple as they are both putting up the same numbers while one is a better defender. Context in this situation indeed matters, and LAL having shaquille and a much better team plays a pivotal part in why Kobe was able to be an all world defender at this time. 

I don't think Kobe is as good of a defender if Darryl Armstrong and Pat Garrity are his running mates.

 

[awwsome]

I dont know man. LJ playing his whole career on the weak *** east is a big deal to me.....

Yea I'm sure the best player of his generation would've had a problem in the west.

 

[MVP]

Because one is putting up those numbers w/o Shaq and a far worse team as a whole.


You can be a better defender when you're playing with Shaquille on both sides of the ball. It's not as simple as they are both putting up the same numbers while one is a better defender. Context in this situation indeed matters, and LAL having shaquille and a much better team plays a pivotal part in why Kobe was able to be an all world defender at this time. 

I don't think Kobe is as good of a defender if Darryl Armstrong and Pat Garrity are his running mates.

He was still an all world defender with Smush and Kwame though while putting up 35/5/5.

 

[shoeking2102]

He was still an all world defender with Smush and Kwame though while putting up 35/5/5.

You think he was an all world defender from 05-07? For real?

 

[JD617]

This all-world defender stuff is ridiculous, but I don't really want to get into this again.