Clyde Frog
formerly jay02
- Jan 8, 2011
- 12,617
- 7,475
I'm convinced Giannis is a lock to be the best player on the team as well. But I dont really care who it ends up being.
*USA Basketball* WOMEN EARN GOLD v. ESP (101-72)! MEN EARN GOLD v. SRB (96-66)!
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by darthska,
- Start date
MVP
Supporter
- Feb 28, 2008
- 83,036
- 85,624
Best and most talented are two different things. Like Russell Westbrook is the most talented PG in the league but Steph is still the best PG.
Clyde Frog
formerly jay02
- Jan 8, 2011
- 12,617
- 7,475
Nah Steph is the most talented and the best
Last edited:
- Jun 1, 2008
- 38,406
- 7,519
I just wanna see em flourish together.
Been hating most of the moves the FO has made around them.
Trading for Monroe
Signing Plumlee and Henson to log extensions when you only need one of them
They've messed up their ability to overpay a high level starter next year in the offseason.
MVP
Supporter
- Feb 28, 2008
- 83,036
- 85,624
Look at your avy and your name b.
Ain't no way you gonna be objective about this.
My name ain't got nothing to do with it. I moved Bron past Kobe all time, but the hyperbole is what it is. You got people who hate Kobe in here saying otherwise as well.
- Jun 1, 2008
- 38,406
- 7,519
Yup.
Westbrook is my favorite too but Curry is the best period.
Only way Russ can challenge him is by somehow becoming just a decent 3pt shooter.
- Jun 7, 2011
- 18,210
- 21,989
Jordan won DPOY, MVP, and the scoring title all in the same season and you're gonna sit here with a straight face and tell me he was, at best, the 3rd best player in the league?
- Jun 1, 2008
- 38,406
- 7,519
I got love for Kobe, I've said it enough times and have defended him when he needed to be defended but what I'm saying isn't far fetched at all when you remove your personal bias.
- Jun 1, 2008
- 38,406
- 7,519
Jordan won DPOY, MVP, and the scoring title all in the same season and you're gonna sit here with a straight face and tell me he was, at best, the 3rd best player in the league?
Also had the most effecient high usage season ever for a perimeter player.
But Bird and Magic were better because ya know, basketball reasons, titles, 3 HOF teammates each.
Wait, what?
- Aug 11, 2012
- 55,513
- 147,133
We really gotta chill with using numbers as the end all be all of evaluations. It's getting ridiculous now.
By Awwsome's logic...'00-'04 Tmac is a better player than '00-04 Kobe.
The "numbers say so"
By Awwsome's logic...'00-'04 Tmac is a better player than '00-04 Kobe.
The "numbers say so"
- Jun 1, 2008
- 38,406
- 7,519
I already said I would take prime T-Mac over Kobe.
03' T-Mac was one of the best perimeter players in history.
It's just "numbers say so" I watch just as much basketball as any human being not named Bob Voulgaris, I speak both languages.
If you watched Kobe and Tracy back then and didn't think Mac was better than hey, we just gonna have to agree to disagree.
You blinded by the fact that Kobe was playing with Shaq at the time while Mac had Pat Garrity and Darryl Armstrong.
Last edited:
- Aug 11, 2012
- 55,513
- 147,133
Ard man. I see where you stand.
***** really got me out here "defending" Frobe....
What a time....
MVP
Supporter
- Feb 28, 2008
- 83,036
- 85,624
But Kobe averaged more reb, assists, steals, same amount of blocks, same shooting percentage plus was an all NBA defender as well while playing all 82 games. Only thing T-Mac had him in was scoring 32 vs 30. So even the numbers say Kobe was better or does that only apply to Bron?
Last edited:
- Apr 23, 2015
- 8,705
- 2,370
I don't know man,
In 08 Lebron literally did everything better than Kobe. Eye test supported it. Stats for sure supported it.
I can't get mad at someone if they believe Kobe was better than Bron in 08' but I for sure can see why someone would say Bron was better, and not just "more talented."
The more talented thing goes out the window when the more talented guy is a better rebounder, defender, playmaker, more efficient, etc. etc....
In 08 Lebron literally did everything better than Kobe. Eye test supported it. Stats for sure supported it.
I can't get mad at someone if they believe Kobe was better than Bron in 08' but I for sure can see why someone would say Bron was better, and not just "more talented."
The more talented thing goes out the window when the more talented guy is a better rebounder, defender, playmaker, more efficient, etc. etc....
- Apr 23, 2015
- 8,705
- 2,370
Is this really that ridiculous of a thing to say though?
I havent even dove into the Kobe / Tmac 00-04 numbers wise, but off the top of my head, this doesn't seem all that wild to say at all.
- Aug 11, 2012
- 55,513
- 147,133
awwsome
I'm about as staunch of a Tmac defender as anybody on this board. And fully believe that if you put any of those elite wings with Shaq...the results would've been similar.But Tmac wasn't as good as Kobe back then. As much as I believed it as a teen...Kobe had an extra gear. Mac will tell you himself.
- Aug 11, 2012
- 55,513
- 147,133
MVP
Supporter
- Feb 28, 2008
- 83,036
- 85,624
So offensive numbers nearly identical but only one guy is an all world defender.
- Nov 5, 2012
- 80,694
- 55,639
Don't agree with awesome on tmac
Definitely agree with awesome on Lebby. 2008 was lit, don't get me wrong Kobe deserved mvp but so did Lebby and cp was there too
Always liked that Lebby better than Miami Lebby
Definitely agree with awesome on Lebby. 2008 was lit, don't get me wrong Kobe deserved mvp but so did Lebby and cp was there too
Always liked that Lebby better than Miami Lebby
- Oct 1, 2013
- 30,670
- 7,908
You're welcome.
- Apr 23, 2015
- 8,705
- 2,370
Well you can be an all world defender with Shaq on your team. Less responsibility offensively, more energy defensively, etc.
MVP
Supporter
- Feb 28, 2008
- 83,036
- 85,624
Less offensive responsibility...lol wut?
- Apr 23, 2015
- 8,705
- 2,370
It looks to me like it was very close. Borderline hair splitting. Probably boils down to who you like more.
Tmac vs Kobe in 00'-04' is much closer to me than Bron v Kobe in 08. Bron was clearly better to me.
Also, I think I remember reading in SLAM where Mac said he was the best in the league during that time and that Kobe was the only one he felt could hang with him. Don't think Mac would concede Kobe being better than him during that time period so easily.
- Jun 1, 2008
- 38,406
- 7,519
I'm the last guy you wanna have a stat argument for this with man.
First, you're using counting stats wrong, going by % is the only real way to get a scope of how elite a player really is at something.
@ bringing up All NBA Defense like that has a real track record of capturing the real best defenders. Comparing 03 for both players and it's way too obvious.
Kobe PER 26
Mac PER 30
Kobe TS% .550
Mac TS% .564
Kobe rebound rate 9.3
Mac rebound rate 9.5
Kobe assist % 27.2
Mac assist % 30 (which is very telling considering he different in talent they were playing with)
Kobe Win Share Per 48 Mins .210
Mac was .262
And my favorite.
Kobe Offensive Box Plus/Minus was 6.1
Mac Offensive BPM was 9.8
Kobe overall BPM was 6.4
Mac was 9.7.
Kobe Value Over A Replacement Level Player was 7.1
Mac VORP was 8.7
Once you factor in the disparity in talent they were playing with, yea Mac blows Kobe out the water.
Last edited:
- Apr 23, 2015
- 8,705
- 2,370
If you have shaq on your team, you don't have to go full board for the full 48 min. The offense doesn't have to run through you every offensive sequence, which it didn't. Thus, less responsibility offensively by having Shaquille.
