The Ultimate Soccer Thread 2011-2012. VOL 2 (EPL,LFP, SERIE A, BUND, ETC.)

[thatpersianguy]

 

[abovelegit1]

PersiaFly wrote:

^Ricky's just stumping for his boy. 

Continuing the discussion -  another long post... *shrugs*

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I jumped on the roster point because it's sophistry. There are so many flaws in your argument. One, you can't compare players like you're doing; Barca has developed players for specific roles on that team given its unique philosophy, so of course they're going to work better in that role than players from another team. Two, you're stating things as facts that are arguable to say the least (four playmakers better than Ozil, Casillas not significantly better than Valdes, Alves as the best RB in the world, perceived flaws of Madrid players). Three, as stated before, you're attaching importance to something that has proven to be unimportant over and over again when squads with less star-studded rosters have prevailed over juggernauts like Barca and Brazil etc. Four, you're conveniently leaving out the fact that Mourinho is a better coach than Pep and has gotten the better of him in the past with weaker squads. You dismiss this point by saying "they're both great minds", but then you go to such great lengths to make fine distinctions between players that allow you to place Barca players over Madrid.

In short, it seems to me that you're reaching to widen the gap between Barca and Madrid. It is not that wide a gap right now, and efforts to make it seem so will inevitably devolve into biased rants.

I've never presented anything I've said as fact; I'm merely giving my opinion. Obviously there's no way of knowing who is right until December, and the results will tell the story. (barring any nonsense)

Regarding the roster question, its not fallacious because I can argue for it in any way. Suppose Real and Barca were in a fantasy draft with a pool of players from both rosters. If Madrid were to have the first 11 picks (

), would the majority of the selections not be Barcelona players? The point is, Barca's roster has more quality, and again that is just one aspect of the argument I was attempting to make. 
I've addressed the question of fact, so four players on the FCB roster that would provide better conventional 'hole' play than Ozil are Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, and Cesc. The latter of whom Ozil may be closest to in terms of quality, but most would agree Fabregas is superior. I laid out valid reasons why Valdes is on par with Casillas, and regarding Alves, I'll concede he's better for Barca as Ramos is for Madrid. 

Not sure if serious in saying strength of roster isn't important in the CL. More often than not, the more talented side will come through. Exceptions aren't the rule. And while I agree Mourinho is the more accomplished coach, and indeed got the better of Pep with an inferior team - I don't believe you can qualify that as a distinct advantage because of the fickle nature of knockout football. I seem to remember Rafa Benitez's Liverpool outlasting Mourinho's Blues despite the latter finishing close to 20 points ahead in the Prem, if memory serves. Would any bookie be handicapping a Mourinho-led side against Benitez if the roles were reversed today? Also, you can't discount Pep against Mourinho on the basis of achievement. While Mou has already had a long career with many different jobs, Pep has been on the job three seasons and has won 12/15 trophies to start his career, so you can't knock him for winning what's in front of him. Since I seem to have unwittingly taken on the the role of resident Barca homer in the past couple pages, I'll just embrace it by saying you can't win 'em all in regards to that Inter cup tie. Especially when there's a volcano involved.  

Finally, it strikes me that although this current Barca incarnation is being widely regarded as among the best side of all time, there are those such as yourself who are saying Madrid are nipping at their heels. Are we all to understand it that this Madrid side is of that same caliber? I'm skeptical because to put it simply: you can't buy chemistry - not the innate kind that this Barcelona outfit possess anyway. What's becoming ever more agreed upon is this: Barcelona play revolutionary football. I believe eventually teams will have to adapt (tactics example would be a move way from the 4-4-2), simply because of Barcelona/Spain's respective dominance through playing style. Anyway, we're just going to have to agree to disagree at this point, because my posts are becoming way too verbose. 

 

[persiafly]

You make good points as usual, especially about Barca's historic rise. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do think Madrid is creeping towards them, and I don't think it's coincidence. Barca's revolution has forced Madrid to try to spark its own revolution to keep up. Aside from that, again I would point out that Madrid is being built right now specifically to counter Barcelona's playing style. They have failed at this more often than not, but their own chemistry has improved in the meanwhile. I'm not sure how close I'd put Madrid to Barca, but I would still say that Madrid is the second best team in the world by a comfortable margin, and also that the margin between Madrid and Barca is less than that between Madrid and Bayern/ManU/Man City or whoever we consider the third team to be. I could be wrong about that, as you said we have to wait til December.

In other news, Iran just scored a MONUMENTAL equalizer in stoppage time in Bahrain to basically secure advancing to the next round of Asian qualifying. We choked badly in Bahrain before the 2002 World Cup when a win would have sent us to the finals, and it looked like we were about to do the same today. Equalized in the 93rd minute and now we're through if we beat Indonesia, who is terrible.

After that it's just hoping we don't end up in the same group as more than one of Aus/***/SK. Hopefully the draw will be set up in a way to prevent that, but who knows.

 

[halftime718]

All LIVEBREATHEFUTBOL shirts will be $11 dollars for about 11 hours, if you had a shirt on your mind today is the day to get it. Get christmas shopping out the way early. 

 

[cool hand Luka]

Just wish Damiao would come to Spurs in January 

The depth at forward is so weak for Spurs, Defoe will never be able to play
a true lone striker role, Pav is well Pav, VDV isn't a true striker.

Hoping Adebayor's work rate remains as high as it has been so far, he's done so many things other than score goals, that Spurs haven't seen
in a striker since Berba and Keane played together.

at Sandro grabbing a goal for Brazil even if it was from 1.2 yards out. As much as I like what Parker does, at times he is indecisive with
the ball and keeps possession by dribbling in circles which takes away from Modric's time on the ball. Sandro is stronger, pacier, better on the attack,
honestly just as good defensively as Parker and instead of holding on to the ball, he passes and moves.

Sandro > Lucas especially when Sandro starts to see consistent game time. His performance against Milan last season established him as better than Lucas

 

[champcruthik]

I'll let Above and Persia settle their debate separately.
The points I want to personally address: First, that City/Bayern CL group stage match is called foresight (writing on the wall if you will). If that's not enough evidence, City has experienced further difficulty in their other CL group stage matches and are "struggling" somewhat to even get out of the group cleanly. Ex.: Scored draw against Napoli and very narrow (lucky) win at home against Villarreal. Especially fortunate in the second match I mentioned thanks to an own goal and a stroke of Aguero magic late. I think we (AboveLegit) could both agree that although Napoli and Villarreal are solid clubs, Manchester City is on another level with quality (player personnel) and should handle both with relative ease. Please re-watch the game. The first 35 minutes was only even if you believe in City's two appeals for PKs early on. They got caught out of position (Richards in particular) and lost defensive organization. So let's be clear that Ribery, Gomez, and Schweinsteiger didn't "unlock" City's defense but in fact City for all intensive purposes handed Bayern two very cheap goals before half, as evidenced by Hart's immense frustration with his defense's lack of organization and terrible marking. For the record, it wasn't hindsight in terms of Mancini's tactics. I knew from the first 15-20 minutes of play that Bayern Munich and Ribery would catch City on the counter. If you play the style Mancini so desired, you have to create enough chances and FINISH those chances early especially in an away CL fixture. More importantly it takes much discipline and experience to play 90 minutes with strong defensive organization, City simply didn't do that not even for a full-half. In all honesty, tell me you weren't surprised the Italian manager who almost ALWAYS parks the bus in crucial matches decides to come out attacking in their first away CL fixture against the "third best side in Europe." The timing was wrong for Mancini to attempt to invoke confidence in his squad, as you so put it.

Furthermore, City didn't get exposed for quality but instead inexperience and a manager's error. I do agree that Mancini is actually doing a fabulous job this year coping with all the unique personalities and romping Manchester United at Old Trafford, but ask yourself in terms of past history (CL) why was he fired from Inter then? Ibra might refresh your memory with his recent comments.

Generally speaking positive experience is gained through success, no? Sure we all take something away from losses, but most definitely we take more away from experiencing and WINNING on the biggest of stages. A "been there, done that" approach only strengthens confidence. It's human psychology. In addition, based on your strength of squad argument technically City should be the third best side in Europe and not Bayern Munich. They are far deeper in player quality than any club sans Madrid or Barca. This just solidifies my point that experience can generally outweigh other factors like strength of squad. Which brings me to my next point about Cleverley and Welbeck, you conveniently left out that I clearly mentioned their respective success and contributions to United's CL campaign is completely tied to Fergie's "preparation and track record" (my exact words). Once again, a major advantage for United compared to City in CL competitions (manager's experience and success). Cleverley and Welbeck are good, young, raw, and talented players but I fully believe that under SAF's tutelage, the best will be brought out when it counts. I still don't agree with your point about United's midfield weakness. I'll say again that Sneijder would be an added luxury, but Chelsea in fact needs him more. Plus United can afford to play wide (outside) effectively with Nani, Young, and Valencia, something Chelsea has struggled to do in AVB's 4-3-3. Sturridge and Anelka don't fit and aren't comfortable in AVB's RW role, but I digress. Lastly, Phil Jones is far from the reason for United's surprising deficiency defensively. That fault would lie more squarely on the shoulder of Jonny Evans and unfortunate injuries to both Ferdinand and Vidic. Ferdinand may be aging but he's still good for crucial matches. He should be rested more and playing a maximum of one match per week. It is clear for all to see that Jones/Smalling will be a CB pairing to reckon with for years to come. I would like to see Chelsea also buy a young CB just in competitive nature, someone like Sakho for the future.

In conclusion, and perhaps most importantly I never said Barca's form wasn't "fine." To reiterate I said their current run of play is not as good as last year's La Liga/CL winning (peak) form. To put it simply, they haven't looked as dominant in my opinion. Thiago is going to be a star, no argument there and I'd love to have him at the Bernabeu. Barca is going to need to depth he provides given recent injuries to Afellay and Sanchez. FCB has stated no intention to buy players in the January window. It's going to take substantial time for Sanchez to be truly match fit (100%) and even longer to mesh and develop chemistry with the first-team. I feel Sanchez relies on his pace too much and can be limited on the pitch by defenders. Don't want to call him one-dimensional just to be clear because that's not the case. To no one's surprise Fabregas has fit in completely well and rather quickly at that.

I find it laughable that you may consider Mascherano a world class CB. He was barely a world class holding midfielder and in recent memory Barca was trying their best to pawn him off to Inter. Mascherano is not that much better than the likes of Zanetti and Cambiasso. I will say Pep is masterful at employing CDM's at the CB position when needed with Toure, Busquets, and Mascherano in the past.

Casillas IS clearly better than Valdes and whether you like it or not that opinion is shared by most if not all football fans. I would only take Hart, Neuer, and maybe Cech over Casillas in net at the moment. There's a reason "Saint Iker" is about to be the most capped footballer in Spanish history. In comparison, Valdes only has 6 national caps for Spain and some might argue Reina is close or better than Victor. Casillas' run at the WC was very strong and one of the main reasons for Spain's near perfect defensive record and organization. 

Abidal is the better defender at LB, but Marcelo makes up for it going foward. The Brazilian is almost like an extra midfielder in the attack and very adequate in front of goal. Plus we have Coentrao as another solid option. I don't think anyone would take Abidal at the age of 32 over Marcelo, which is why FCB is taking a hard look at Bale for the next summer window.

As "technically deficient" you believe Pepe is, he was still one of if not our best player in the first-leg (CL). Pepe successfully disrupted Barca's usual flow and control of tempo with physical, well-timed challenges. He made Barcelona's usual playmakers uncomfortable by purposefully taking Messi in particular out of rhythm. Lass filled Pepe's role well in the second-leg. I'm always fair and my assessment of Pepe isn't complete without highlighting his biggest flaw, which is a hot-headed temper. He's been controlling his emotions better but that's always something to watch out for. 

The only thing Alves is clearly better than Ramos at is FKs. Ramos is more versatile (defensive positioning) for sure and can be used at CB or LB if needed. They're both very close in form something like 1A and 1B. 

All the things you said against Xabi Alonso highlight your perceived negative characteristics of him, but what about his supreme ability to distribute and control the pace of the game? Or how well he takes set pieces?

As far as your Ozil comment and "four better FCB playmakers," there's no argument against Xavi, Iniesta, or Messi, but Ozil is a better CAM than Fabregas. You said most would have Fabregas over Ozil, but that's not true. The German international is established as a top-10 footballer in the world at this point in his career, I can't say the same for Cesc right now. It's scary but Gotze will be even better than Ozil. 

Just a reminder, there's not that much disparity between Di Maria to Pedro and Benzema/Higuain to Villa. 

The last thing I would like to discuss is the whole Clasico debate. I give credit where's it due and Barca's style of play is truly tremendous to watch. Spain and Barcelona's respective success will change the global playing style from a more physical and athletic standpoint, to pinpoint passing and dominant possession. I take losses like a man and that 5-0 league match at the Nou Camp was an embarrassing beating. The only thing that baffled and disappointed me was Barca's slight change to negative tactics in the CL first-leg. There's no need to dive all over the place (Pedro, Busquets, and Villa) and practially beg for calls. That kind of behavior only taints FCB's potential legacy. The Clasico brings out the best and worst of both clubs. Madrid's two main strategies against Barcelona going forward: Offensive efficiency (finish good chances that are created accordingly) and physical defensive pressure and marking all over the pitch (Pepe and Lass). We can let Lass go to Spurs if M'Vila comes to the Bernabeu. I hope the Frenchman does snub Arsenal for our club, it would allow Pepe to stay at CB. M'Vila would be an absolute hound and nuisance for Barca utilizing his physical strength all over the park. 

I'm more than happy to allow Barca to have the title of "CL favorites." After all usually the title rightfully belongs to the defending champions of Europe. However, I'm extremely pleased with Madrid's current domestic league form and hope that translates to CL success later on in the season. The two things we're doing very well are: Sharing the ball and strong defense organization. There were times last season it would seem our back four would lull asleep after a couple Madrid goals. I see more focus and determination defensively this year to finish out a full 90 minutes of match time. Kaka is resurgent and Mourinho has to be thrilled with the form of both strikers, Benzema and Higuain. Cristiano Ronaldo looks like a new man with improved passing and unselfishness. Overall team chemistry feels a lot better. Two things we need to work on: Find a first-team role for Nuri Sahin and discover the best position to utilize Coentrao. I have complete faith that the "Special One" will shift the balance of power in Spain back to Madrid starting December 11th. 

 

[abovelegit1]

Great post, and no disrespect to you, but I won't address each point of contention.

Regarding City, most of us can agree that Barca or Madrid are largely probable of winning the CL, and the rest of the giants fall behind them in varying order, depending on who you ask. And while I agree with you that in evaluating the (slight) odds today, United and Chelsea would be favored to win over City due to group positioning; I still wouldn't quite say that it is impossible for them to do so, for all the reasons I mentioned and could be argued. Accordingly, Bet365 and Bodog (two most popular online books I know of) have the odds for winning the CL as the same for City and United, with Chelsea behind them. As for the latter, I don't think Sneijder is a great fit for them in that 4-3-3. If you've followed his career, it has become obvious that he is most comfortable and effective playing in the middle as a traditional '10' with two DMs on either side behind him as he is currently at Inter, and with the Oranje. And for the record, I was indeed surprised the Italian went against his catenaccio roots in that Bayern game, but pleasantly so. Again, mountain/molehill.

I'll address the Cesc-Ozil debate by saying there's no way I can agree with you that Ozil should be rated more highly. Though he may be coming off a better year than Cesc due to a variety of reasons, there are still questions about his stamina and consistency. Cesc has no such questions regarding his ability, is technically superior, and has proven a lot more versatile (wings, AM, CM, box to box). He's even had spells at CF for Barcelona recently. Think about it, if Cesc were willing, Madrid would have surely gotten involved in the bidding and shot up the fee to around 50m. You think Real would have paid all that only to not install him as the starting CAM?

As for Mascherano, he very well may end up as a better CB than DM. You haven't been paying attention to his performances if you find that laughable. He has been spectacular on almost every occasion he has been employed there, dating back to last years CL final. And DMs rotating with CBs is nothing new, the blend of that position has been around for ages as the 'sweeper' or 'ball-playing center-halfs,' and though the game has evolved away from that positional concept, the modern CB excels when having skills requisite of both positions.

Keep dreaming about that power shift, though.

Edit: 

CL odds : http://www.oddschecker.com/football/champions-league/winner

Good recent article on modern CBs from likely my favorite football writer: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/974166/phil-ball:-the-new-creators?cc=5901

 

[wizards23]

I have to agree with AboveLegit, that Cesc is superior to Ozil.

I read somewhere that Ozil was salty and thinking about leaving RM because Kaka is healthy and finding his form. I didn't think much of it though.

Forza Barca!

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by CripwalkinK

He's right though. About him being more complete. Break down every skill that a soccer player possesses and Ronaldo is more complete. Messi's dribbling is untouchable by anyone in the world, even though Ronaldo might be the second best dribbler in the world. But does Messi have a shot like Ronaldo? Can he use his header consistently? Is he as good at free kicks as Ronaldo?

 

[el Chief]

Messi=Best team player in the world
Ronaldo= Best individual player in the world

What Messi can do in that Barcelona system is incredible, but take him away from it and his form drops as you can see with the Argentinean national team. You can put Ronaldo with 10 other guys and he'll try to do something, and will probably do something good if not great by himself. Ultimately, Ronaldo gets his results through pure skill, yet Messi, although with a little less skill, is a much more intelligent player and plays more fearlessly, and thats where a good part of his results come from.

 

[persiafly]

Originally Posted by r9brockburst

Messi=Best team player in the world
Ronaldo= Best individual player in the world

What Messi can do in that Barcelona system is incredible, but take him away from it and his form drops as you can see with the Argentinean national team. You can put Ronaldo with 10 other guys and he'll try to do something, and will probably do something good if not great by himself. Ultimately, Ronaldo gets his results through pure skill, yet Messi, although with a little less skill, is a much more intelligent player and plays more fearlessly, and thats where a good part of his results come from.

But hasn't Ronaldo basically been as bad with Portugal as Messi has with Argentina?
I don't know if I buy any of this "more complete player" stuff. Messi is pretty damn complete himself at this point. He scores all manner of goals, he's a ridiculous passer, and what he lacks in headers and free kicks he more than makes up for in his ability to glue the ball to his foot unlike anyone else. Maybe Ronaldo is better in some areas but overall I still think Messi is the better player, i.e. if you ranked each attribute 1-10 Messi would still have more points. 

 

[thatpersianguy]

Originally Posted by PersiaFly

In other news, Iran just scored a MONUMENTAL equalizer in stoppage time in Bahrain to basically secure advancing to the next round of Asian qualifying. We choked badly in Bahrain before the 2002 World Cup when a win would have sent us to the finals, and it looked like we were about to do the same today. Equalized in the 93rd minute and now we're through if we beat Indonesia, who is terrible.

I see people are writing essays in here haha, gonna read a few of these posts in a couple hours.

 

[champcruthik]

AboveLegit, although we don't seem to agree on much in terms of soccer I actually enjoy our back-and-forth debates.
I'm curious to see how non-Madrid and non-Barca fans rate Ozil and Cesc respectively. I guess we could leave Gunners fans out for an unbiased reaction too. 

 

[persiafly]

Originally Posted by ChampCruThik

AboveLegit, although we don't seem to agree on much in terms of soccer I actually enjoy our back-and-forth debates.
I'm curious to see how non-Madrid and non-Barca fans rate Ozil and Cesc respectively. I guess we could leave Gunners fans out for an unbiased reaction too. 

Same to the first sentence to everyone here. 

The Ozil/Cesc question is an interesting one. To be honest when abovelegit first put four players above Ozil and I realized he was including Cesc I thought it was a highly questionable statement. But to me it's not definitively answerable at this point because Ozil is still improving. He has improved so rapidly that it may seem that he has peaked but I think he can still improve and put himself in the same class as Iniesta. Xavi to me is close to being past his prime but I won't even open that can of worms by questioning the patron saint of soccer. 

Overall my guess would be that in a year or two most soccer fans would put Ozil over Cesc. 

 

[ham city]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by CripwalkinK

He's right though. About him being more complete. Break down every skill that a soccer player possesses and Ronaldo is more complete. Messi's dribbling is untouchable by anyone in the world, even though Ronaldo might be the second best dribbler in the world. But does Messi have a shot like Ronaldo? Can he use his header consistently? Is he as good at free kicks as Ronaldo?

I don't know man. Can Ronaldo dribble as effectively as Messi? Can he finish as clinically as messy? Is he as good a passer as Messi? Is his ball control as good as Messi's? Does he have the killer instinct of Messi? Is his IQ as high as Messi's? IMO it's resounding no to all of those and Messi's shot off the dribble/quickness of release > Ronaldo's. Ronaldo is a better free kick taker yes, more power yes, but I'll take Messi's shot anywhere around the edge of the box over Ronaldo's.
 I mean I see how it's an easy argument to make since Ronaldo is better in the air and is a physical specimen but Messi is too superior in some critical areas. I think Ronaldo would suffer much more in Barca's system than Messi would in Madrid. Barcelona doesn't make its players look good, they make themselves look average.

 

[air kooroush]

Originally Posted by CripwalkinK

Originally Posted by PersiaFly

In other news, Iran just scored a MONUMENTAL equalizer in stoppage time in Bahrain to basically secure advancing to the next round of Asian qualifying. We choked badly in Bahrain before the 2002 World Cup when a win would have sent us to the finals, and it looked like we were about to do the same today. Equalized in the 93rd minute and now we're through if we beat Indonesia, who is terrible.

I see people are writing essays in here haha, gonna read a few of these posts in a couple hours.

Love the announcer...we didn't play well 

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by CripwalkinK

He's right though. About him being more complete. Break down every skill that a soccer player possesses and Ronaldo is more complete. Messi's dribbling is untouchable by anyone in the world, even though Ronaldo might be the second best dribbler in the world. But does Messi have a shot like Ronaldo? Can he use his header consistently? Is he as good at free kicks as Ronaldo?

I don't know man. Can Ronaldo dribble as effectively as Messi? Can he finish as clinically as messy? Is he as good a passer as Messi? Is his ball control as good as Messi's? Does he have the killer instinct of Messi? Is his IQ as high as Messi's? IMO it's resounding no to all of those and Messi's shot off the dribble/quickness of release > Ronaldo's. Ronaldo is a better free kick taker yes, more power yes, but I'll take Messi's shot anywhere around the edge of the box over Ronaldo's.
 I mean I see how it's an easy argument to make since Ronaldo is better in the air and is a physical specimen but Messi is too superior in some critical areas. Barcelona doesn't make its players look good, they make themselves look average.

I already said that Messi has better ball control (dribbling), so stop making up different names for attributes in order to mention more for Messi. I can do that too. Is Messi as good of a penalty kick taker? Is he as good of a corner kick taker? Is he as creative as Ronaldo? Is the variety of the goals he has scored throughout his career as great as Ronaldo's? Is he as good at winning battles in the air with his head? Is he as likely to be used defensively and head away the ball when the opponent has a corner kick or a free kick? Also, Ronaldo's longer passes are better.

I think Ronaldo would suffer much more in Barca's system than Messi would in Madrid.

I think the opposite. Except I have the facts on my side to prove that my opinion is more likely. We have an example of Ronaldo playing in another system (Man United), where he won the Player of The Year and Champions League, whereas Messi has never proven a damn thing outside of Barcelona, club-wise or internationally while the backbone of the system he plays for won the 2010 World Cup.

 

[thatpersianguy]

Couple things here before I keep reading:

-ChampCruThik with the godly post, very well said.

-If Chelsea do one day grab Sneijder.....

-Ozil/Cesc isn't as clear-cut as some may think. The thing that makes the debate tougher is that I think Ozil's role at Real Madrid is a lot more important to his team than Fabregas. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just Ozil is probably the most important player on the pitch for Real Madrid after Ronaldo and Fabregas has definitely made his presence felt for Barcelona, but it's tough to suggest that they NEED him as much RM needs Ozil after coming off a Champions League victory. As Ronaldo said himself, Ozil is the reason Ronaldo can remain in top form, keeping him on the right wing in perfect position for scoring opportunities and set-ups. He's arguably the best playmaker in the world, however, Fabregas is certainly not far off, and in fact, I'd say Fabregas is more seasoned as a player. So really, I'm not mad if anyone takes Fabregas over Ozil or vice-versa, but either way, it's not an irrefutable decision.

-As PersiaFly said, I would think as well that in a year or two, most would suggest that Ozil is better than Cesc if they already don't right now.

Now onto this Messi/Ronaldo stuff.

EDIT: My post got Yuku'd, don't feel like re-writing it.

 

[thatpersianguy]

Great result for England beating Spain's A team. Capello should've played Sturridge though.

 

[ham city]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl





He's right though. About him being more complete. Break down every skill that a soccer player possesses and Ronaldo is more complete. Messi's dribbling is untouchable by anyone in the world, even though Ronaldo might be the second best dribbler in the world. But does Messi have a shot like Ronaldo? Can he use his header consistently? Is he as good at free kicks as Ronaldo?

I don't know man. Can Ronaldo dribble as effectively as Messi? Can he finish as clinically as messy? Is he as good a passer as Messi? Is his ball control as good as Messi's? Does he have the killer instinct of Messi? Is his IQ as high as Messi's? IMO it's resounding no to all of those and Messi's shot off the dribble/quickness of release > Ronaldo's. Ronaldo is a better free kick taker yes, more power yes, but I'll take Messi's shot anywhere around the edge of the box over Ronaldo's.
 I mean I see how it's an easy argument to make since Ronaldo is better in the air and is a physical specimen but Messi is too superior in some critical areas. Barcelona doesn't make its players look good, they make themselves look average.

I already said that Messi has better ball control (dribbling), so stop making up different names for attributes in order to mention more for Messi. I can do that too. Is Messi as good of a penalty kick taker? Is he as good of a corner kick taker? Is he as creative as Ronaldo? Is the variety of the goals he has scored throughout his career as great as Ronaldo's? Is he as good at winning battles in the air with his head? Is he as likely to be used defensively and head away the ball when the opponent has a corner kick or a free kick? Also, Ronaldo's longer passes are better.

I think Ronaldo would suffer much more in Barca's system than Messi would in Madrid.

I think the opposite. Except I have the facts on my side to prove that my opinion is more likely. We have an example of Ronaldo playing in another system (Man United), where he won the Player of The Year and Champions League, whereas Messi has never proven a damn thing outside of Barcelona, club-wise or internationally while the backbone of the system he plays for won the 2010 World Cup.
Bro that last part is neither a fact or proof.

I didn't think you were wrongfully bias before but wow, you're really going to 1) @#+% on Messi for playing his entire club career with one team while 2) at the same time act like Ronaldo didn't benefit from an equally effective and fine tuned system during his time at Man Utd. OK. Those are terrible arguments that you should have just deleted.

Ball control isn't the same thing as dribbling ability, Messi's first touch > Ronaldo's. You're a funny dude, now I'm making up different attributes in favor of Messi, child please. It's ok I see you grasping for straws. 

 

[nawlinsjunkie]

Regardless of who you think is better, PLEASE do not bring up World Cup/International performances. Messi might have Xavi/Iniesta supporting him, but do you really believe Ronaldo hasn't had excellent midfielders helping him as well at Madrid

Since 2008 Ronaldo has done jack @#$% for the Portuguese national team (besides waste valuable chances and also taking shots from 40 yards out). That's even on a team with Meireles, Moutinho, Nani, and sometimes Coentrao giving him support. Obviously that's not on the level of Madrid/Barca's midfield but impressive nonetheless. I'm not even being biased because I'm a Barca fan, as I'm a fan of the Portuguese NT and actually root for Ronaldo to do well despite how much I hate him

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl







He's right though. About him being more complete. Break down every skill that a soccer player possesses and Ronaldo is more complete. Messi's dribbling is untouchable by anyone in the world, even though Ronaldo might be the second best dribbler in the world. But does Messi have a shot like Ronaldo? Can he use his header consistently? Is he as good at free kicks as Ronaldo?

I don't know man. Can Ronaldo dribble as effectively as Messi? Can he finish as clinically as messy? Is he as good a passer as Messi? Is his ball control as good as Messi's? Does he have the killer instinct of Messi? Is his IQ as high as Messi's? IMO it's resounding no to all of those and Messi's shot off the dribble/quickness of release > Ronaldo's. Ronaldo is a better free kick taker yes, more power yes, but I'll take Messi's shot anywhere around the edge of the box over Ronaldo's.
 I mean I see how it's an easy argument to make since Ronaldo is better in the air and is a physical specimen but Messi is too superior in some critical areas. Barcelona doesn't make its players look good, they make themselves look average.

I already said that Messi has better ball control (dribbling), so stop making up different names for attributes in order to mention more for Messi. I can do that too. Is Messi as good of a penalty kick taker? Is he as good of a corner kick taker? Is he as creative as Ronaldo? Is the variety of the goals he has scored throughout his career as great as Ronaldo's? Is he as good at winning battles in the air with his head? Is he as likely to be used defensively and head away the ball when the opponent has a corner kick or a free kick? Also, Ronaldo's longer passes are better.

I think Ronaldo would suffer much more in Barca's system than Messi would in Madrid.

I think the opposite. Except I have the facts on my side to prove that my opinion is more likely. We have an example of Ronaldo playing in another system (Man United), where he won the Player of The Year and Champions League, whereas Messi has never proven a damn thing outside of Barcelona, club-wise or internationally while the backbone of the system he plays for won the 2010 World Cup.

Bro that last part is neither a fact or proof.

I didn't think you were wrongfully bias before but wow, you're really going to 1) @#+% on Messi for playing his entire club career with one team while 2) at the same time act like Ronaldo didn't benefit from an equally effective and fine tuned system during his time at Man Utd. OK. Those are terrible arguments that you should have just deleted.

Ball control isn't the same thing as dribbling ability, Messi's first touch > Ronaldo's. You're a funny dude, now I'm making up different attributes in favor of Messi, child please. It's ok I see you grasping for straws. 



I didn't think that anyone would be so biased in favor of Messi to be so upset for someone calling Ronaldo a more COMPLETE player, yet here we are.

What exactly is not a fact about it? Ronaldo has won Champions League with United in 2008 while winning the Ballon d'Or. I'm not +#@+##$! on Messi for playing for a single club throughout his career, but when the difference between his performances for Barcelona and his performances for Argentina (the ONLY two examples we have of Messi playing under different circumstances without looking at his sub-teen years) is as vast as it is, I have a legitimate right to point out that he's benefiting from playing in Barcelona's system. The rest of Ronaldo's Man U and Real Madrid teams are just fine, but the fact is that this Barcelona squad over the last couple of years is regarded as arguably the best team ever, no one objective would call that Man U system "equally effective".

You're certainly making up different names for attributes. I can name countless different ways for how Ronaldo's shot is better than Messi's.

Messi might have Xavi/Iniesta supporting him, but do you really believe Ronaldo hasn't had excellent midfielders helping him as well at Madrid Since 2008 Ronaldo has done jack @#$% for the Portuguese national team (besides waste valuable chances and also taking shots from 40 yards out). That's even on a team with Meireles, Moutinho, Nani, and sometimes Coentrao giving him support. Obviously that's not on the level of Madrid/Barca's midfield but impressive nonetheless.



Xavi and Iniesta were Ballon d'Or candidates, where were were those Ronaldo midfielders you speak of? The offensive machinery of this Barca squad is primarily seen as a Messi-Xavi-Iniesta trio, whereas Ronaldo's individual brilliance is seen as the backbone of Real Madrid, certainly to a higher degree than Messi individually is seen for Barca.

Much like Ronaldo's Real Madrid and former Man U teammates are great players but not on par with Messi's Barca teammates, the same goes for Ronaldo's Portugal squad and Messi's Argentina. Ronaldo isn't the same player for Portugal that he is for Real, but the difference is not as great as Messi's. It is pointed out how Messi needs Xavi and Iniesta after damn near every Argentina game, including yesterday's 1-1 draw against Bolivia. The reason why no one does this for Ronaldo is because there isn't a Ronaldo's Xavi and Iniesta to begin with. By the way, you say you're rooting for Portugal, well I have every reason to root against them right at this moment since they're playing my team on tuesday for a place in the Euro 2012. And I still think that Ronaldo is at least a more COMPLETE player than Messi. Also, how has Nani supported Ronaldo other than trolling him out of the most beautiful goal of his international career?



Which by the way reminds me: Ronaldo's lob > Messi's.

 

[abovelegit1]

LOL okay, so now that it has become obvious that Messi is the best player, people are resorting to saying Ronaldo is more complete than Messi? I feel bad, but you can't even have that because it just isn't true. You can break it down all you want in an attempt to make your case, but in general, an attacking player must be capable in three areas: passing , finishing, and the all encompassing - ball control. Two of those areas are quite clearly to Messi's advantage (not sure if serious in saying a winger is better at passing than a central player), and while Ronaldo has a more powerful shot, it isn't more accurate. This is evidenced by him needing 100+ more shots than Messi to get the same amount of goals last season. Also, football fans in general seem to believe Ronaldo is far and away the best dead ball specialist in the game. He made just 5/52 last year, and took 34 attempts more than the next player in La Liga.

Regarding defense, neither player is encumbered by much responsibility, but Messi's work rate and constant ball pressure win out over Ronaldo's half hearted track backs to the mid point line, only to stand and wait for the opportunity to leak out on the counter.

And let's not confuse 'flair' for 'creativity.' True footballing creativity is about inventing passing angles, retaining possession when it seems impossible to do so, creating space/runs for others, etc. Messi doesn't need to use 10 stepovers to beat his defender, which is probably why you seem to perceive Ronaldo as more creative.

But really, the footballing IQ is what separates the Messis, Zidanes, Baggios et al from the mere mortals. For all his greatness, Ronaldo's decision-making leaves much to be desired. Can't believe you honestly think Ronaldo is the backbone of this Madrid outfit; Xabi Alonso would like to have a word with you. 


Oh and ftr, Juninho is (still) the best FK taker on Earth.

 

[imasoleman18]

cr needs to go back to that haircut

 

[nawlinsjunkie]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Why is it that Ronaldo fans ALWAYS bring up this video to say Ronaldo>Messi? Just because it was an amazing shot? For every instance where Ronaldo does something amazing, he has 5 others which are completely stupid and ridiculous. Again, I watch every Portugal match, and I don't mean to sound snobby or anything but I'm not making @#$% up. Have you seen how many Portuguese people from Portugal call Ronaldo "uma vergonha" (an embarassment) after his international performances? Has Messi ever gone 2 whole years without scoring a single goal for his country?  And correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that Messi can't put the team on his back when Xavi and Iniesta are playing like trash? I'd say thats true sometimes, but in big games, especially against Madrid, Messi has single handedly saved Barca and gotten us the W

Ball control/footwork?

Messi doesn't have as much "flashiness" as Ronaldo, but he can weave through defenders much more effortlessly. Ronaldo tries to do this and ends up stumbling and trying to draw free kicks. I've seen so many situations where all Ronaldo has to do is pass the ball; instead, he does his usual 20 stepovers and backheels the ball to a defender