The MMA Thread: DON'T ASK 4 STREAMS & NO GIFS- Cannonier, Imavov, Reyes, Rosas on NOW

[keko jones]

Since Vincent Van Goat brought up “Showtime’s” 155 run, it really pains me to draw this parallel but pride myself to keep it 100 even with my favorite fighters. Pettis’s LW resume and T-Wood’s WW legacy were both tarnished in my eyes. RDA took Pettis’s soul with a five-round beating. I’ll give “Showtime” props for not taking the easy way out and tapping to the kimura, but scorecards in that unfortunate 50-44 range. Same deal with my boy Tyron. Usman dominated the entire title bout for all 25 minutes. Neutralized every facet of Woodley’s game. Even in the late stand-up exchanges, I didn’t feel any life or urgency from T-Wood. Let’s see how he rebounds next fight, but it’s not a good omen if the Pettis parallel is true.

I mean RDA had a pretty good run himself ... does that make him elite now? LoL

Max demolished Aldo, Frankie and Ortega. That's an elite run. He is beating 1 and 2s .. that's my distinction between elite and good.

 

[SORIANOTRON]

LOL @ frankie overrated

yall babies.....frankie just old now man, the game has passed him by.

happens to everyone, dood is in there still mixing it up with the best in the world.

6 foot Max did a solid job of keeping 5 foot frankie at bay the whole fight....max did what max does, beat up little guys very well.

 

[BobbyLite]

Cyborg went at Dana as deserved in Ariel interview, rogan too. Dana going for the full trump bully move on cyborg but nobody believes him lol. Hope she signs to whoever pays her the most. Like to see her beat Nunes which w right game plan is possible. Then leave ufc

 

[keko jones]

LOL @ frankie overrated

yall babies.....frankie just old now man, the game has passed him by.

happens to everyone, dood is in there still mixing it up with the best in the world.

6 foot Max did a solid job of keeping 5 foot frankie at bay the whole fight....max did what max does, beat up little guys very well.

So max is over rated? He beats on little guys?

Just asking for a friend.

 

[droseph]

So who exactly is elite to you? Just wondering

 

[SORIANOTRON]

So max is over rated? He beats on little guys?

Just asking for a friend.

nah just fairs well against shorter, smaller opponents

 

[keko jones]

So who exactly is elite to you? Just wondering

Max

Henry

Demetrius

Khabib

DC

Jones

Nunes

To name a few.

 

[blackcease]

I probably have an unpopular opinion but I believe the best version of Frankie wouldn't beat the best version of Dustin Porier, Tony Ferguson, Khabib or even Conor at 155 lbs

Agree, I doubt he'd have much for any of those dudes just because of the size difference. Gray Maynard gave him serious problems and I think every one of those dudes beats Gray. 155 just wasn't anywhere near as stacked then as it is now.

Having said that, despite the fact that Frankie beat BJ, I think BJ fares way better in today's 155 era than Frankie does, easily. I honestly could see him beating every one of those dudes except for Khabib. BJ's problem was always effort prior to his fights, but skill wise I don't think there's anybody on paper he couldn't compete with.

Max

Henry

Demetrius

Khabib

DC

Jones

Nunes

To name a few.

That's a solid list, but with the exception of Henry and possibly Khabib, you basically listed undeniable all time greats. My question is who in the history of 155 and 145 are considered elite? I'm assuming Aldo and Max would have to be in there right? Who else though

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Robert Whittaker really not buying into the the trash talk of Israel it's funny because of how hard Israel's been trying and the effort he's putting into stirring the pot

No emotion at all on Rob's side, he seems really unfazed. A focused Whittaker going to be hell to beat

 

[illphillip]

I see I missed a lot of hot takes in here

Still haven't seen Max/Frankie. What I read sounded like it went the way I thought it might.

In the era he's fighting in, Frankie has always been better suited to fight at 135 and never wanted to. Because he was always at the top of the division at both 155 and 145.

But it's a different ballgame. Guys like Edgar, BJ etc. are small for 155 in this day and age. And even small for 145.

I'd have no problem with him retiring at this point. If he wants to try 135, and it gets us some fun fights, cool. But sometimes you need to know when to say when.

My 2 cents if that if you've been a champion, which means you've beaten a champion (BJ Penn was also 100% one of the 5 best fighters in the world at the time Frankie beat him. Only losing to Hughes and GSP at WW and Machida at LHW and winning like 10 straight at LW in like 10 years), and you only lose to champions (with the exception of another big FW in Ortega recently), you are elite.

 

[Clyde Frog]

I don’t think there’s a scheduled or hypothetical fight out there that would have me more pumped than Whittaker and Israel. That fight is gonna be ******* great.

 

[bware113]

Max demolished Aldo, Frankie and Ortega. That's an elite run. He is beating 1 and 2s .. that's my distinction between elite and good.

I think a lot of your argument is based in recency bias. Because the fighters are better NOW, you've raised the threshold where 'elite' lies. The entire list you pushed are all standing or very recent champions.

Fact still stands that Frankie has only lost 1 fight (Maynard) that wasn't a title bout OR leading to one. How can that not be elite?

Again, what is elite to you? I would say guys that are able to stay ranked in the top 5 consistently are elite, although ranking are completely subjective and meaningless at times. But he's been in the mix for basically the duration of his career.

Speaking as a non-Frankie fan/stan, I haven't always agreed with his ranking or constant gifting of cracks at the belt, but I cant say the man hasn't been elite. His combination boxing, wrestling, cardio and heart (probably his best attribute) are hard to match.

 

[keko jones]

I think a lot of your argument is based in recency bias. Because the fighters are better NOW, you've raised the threshold where 'elite' lies. The entire list you pushed are all standing or very recent champions.

Fact still stands that Frankie has only lost 1 fight (Maynard) that wasn't a title bout OR leading to one. How can that not be elite?

Again, what is elite to you? I would say guys that are able to stay ranked in the top 5 consistently are elite, although ranking are completely subjective and meaningless at times. But he's been in the mix for basically the duration of his career.

Speaking as a non-Frankie fan/stan, I haven't always agreed with his ranking or constant gifting of cracks at the belt, but I cant say the man hasn't been elite. His combination boxing, wrestling, cardio and heart (probably his best attribute) are hard to match.

You're 100% right ...

I didnt bother to go back ..

Matt H.
GSP
Jose Aldo

Should cover Frankie and Bjs era.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

My 2 cents if that if you've been a champion, which means you've beaten a champion (BJ Penn was also 100% one of the 5 best fighters in the world at the time Frankie beat him. Only losing to Hughes and GSP at WW and Machida at LHW and winning like 10 straight at LW in like 10 years), and you only lose to champions (with the exception of another big FW in Ortega recently), you are elite.

I was told I don’t know MMA for saying something like this.

Welcome to the club!

 

[Xennial]

 

[keko jones]

My 2 cents if that if you've been a champion, which means you've beaten a champion (BJ Penn was also 100% one of the 5 best fighters in the world at the time Frankie beat him. Only losing to Hughes and GSP at WW and Machida at LHW and winning like 10 straight at LW in like 10 years), and you only lose to champions (with the exception of another big FW in Ortega recently), you are elite.

I can see your .02 cents, but when a dude is constantly losing to champs, dude is not elite.

Furthermore, he did beat BJ and although people want to say that was his crowning moment, there's no denying BJ was pretty much done and his record after that indicate that was the case.

Or are we saying Chris Wideman is elite? Just asking ...

BTW, that's why I'm saying he is better than Fabor, Cub, Mendez etc...

 

[illphillip]

How was BJ done when he was beating everyone put in front of him?

I’m a fan. Some people arent. That’s fine. It’s the attempt to rewrite history I have an issue with.

No one expected Frankie to win that fight. BJ was possibly the best boxer in MMA and couldn’t be taken down at the time. Was Top5 P4P.

Weidman is a bad parallel right now. He’s fallen off quite a bit since losing the belt. Lost 4 of his last 5. The Gastelum sub was impressive.

Was Uriah Faber an elite fighter in his prime? I would say so. Is he today? Probably not. He lost to Frankie and Jimmie Rivera.

But we need to differentiate between past and present here. Me saying I’d be fine with Frankie retiring is basically me saying I don’t see him at that championship level today.

 

[keko jones]

How was BJ done when he was beating everyone put in front of him?

I’m a fan. Some people arent. That’s fine. It’s the attempt to rewrite history I have an issue with.

No one expected Frankie to win that fight. BJ was possibly the best boxer in MMA and couldn’t be taken down at the time. Was Top5 P4P.

Weidman is a bad parallel right now. He’s fallen off quite a bit since losing the belt. Lost 4 of his last 5. The Gastelum sub was impressive.

Was Uriah Faber an elite fighter in his prime? I would say so. Is he today? Probably not. He lost to Frankie and Jimmie Rivera.

But we need to differentiate between past and present here. Me saying I’d be fine with Frankie retiring is basically me saying I don’t see him at that championship level today.

Take what you said and apply it to BJ.

After losing to Frankie BJs record 1-7-1, only beating an over the hill Matt.

My point in bringing Wiedman was simply to say, Wiedman ain't ******* elite no matter how you slice it. However he beat what everyone thinks is the greatest MMA fighter. But let's see Silva is 1-4-1 after Weidman. Some dudes just have it one minute and the next they fall off the cliff.

We aren't rewriting history at all. I don't even think Ortega is as good as Franky (at least not yet) but he beat him. It is what it is ... Franky is not Elite.

Faber is a Pioneer I get it, but he is not elite. There's no way dude is better than Frankie ... but I get it sentimental value .... Dominic was elite, but dudes knees ... well you know.

 

[illphillip]

This is why I'm saying we need to differentiate between past and present.

IS vs. WAS.

Uriah was 21-1 at one point in his career and had beaten Cruz (before losing to him later), was champ before catching some L's in championship fights.

BJ WAS elite. After losing to Frankie he KO's Matt Hughes at WW. A weight class he should have never even been fighting at. Then loses to Nick and Rory.

If I look at Boxing, Canelo lost to Floyd and you can argue lost twice to GGG. In championship fights. Still elite IMO.

"Elite" in the grand scheme of things is subjective so we can all view it as we see fit.

I just don't understand how you can say BJ was washed when he was on a ridiculous run before losing to Frankie. He was an elite fighter. He just happened to lose to another one. That can happen.

 

[jayt1202]

I think the thing about MMA that makes it tough to place guys in different groups is that often times guys fight past their prime (or way past like BJ now) and often times it can be hard to distinguish if someone truly got beat at their peak. Max beat Aldo convincingly the first time when many still considered him near his prime just like Edgar beat BJ twice when he was considered LW GOAT by many before their first fight.

I'd consider Aldo and Holloway as 1a and b if we're talking FW GOATS. LW GOAT is a little more murky, BJ was beating top guys at the time who aren't really considered much these days, Frankie beat BJ and then barely lost to Bendo in their rematch. Khabib while dominant still needs to beat more top guys (if he beats Dustin and Tony next year then he's in the convo). Pettis' run was too short and he's had a largely rough go since losing to RDA with a few big wins sandwiched in.

Penn has more than damaged his legacy (and I'm a big fan) by taking the late WW fights and then being embarrassed by Edgar (3rd fight) and Yair. Really hoping he decides to retire and doesn't take the Lentz fight.

 

[keko jones]

This is why I'm saying we need to differentiate between past and present.

IS vs. WAS.

Uriah was 21-1 at one point in his career and had beaten Cruz (before losing to him later), was champ before catching some L's in championship fights.

BJ WAS elite. After losing to Frankie he KO's Matt Hughes at WW. A weight class he should have never even been fighting at. Then loses to Nick and Rory.

If I look at Boxing, Canelo lost to Floyd and you can argue lost twice to GGG. In championship fights. Still elite IMO.

"Elite" in the grand scheme of things is subjective so we can all view it as we see fit.

I just don't understand how you can say BJ was washed when he was on a ridiculous run before losing to Frankie. He was an elite fighter. He just happened to lose to another one. That can happen.

Past - Frankie nor Faber were elite.

Past - Cruz was Elite.

I don't hold Cruz lost against Faber in high regards. That was early on and **** happens. Just like Tyson vs Buster, Oliver vs Lennox, etc. I also don't be holding some of those records in high regards man. Chavez Jr is like 50-3 and he sure ain't ******* Elite. You know what I'm talking about though.

You can make an argument that BJ was elite, just like I stated before, if he was Elite, he went to washed in just one fight. Yes, we can say he beat Matt, but who are we kidding, Matt was washed aswell and that was the second to last fight for Matt which also lost the last fight to Kosheck. Then he lost 7 straight, or are we just not counting those? Dude went from 100 to zero, real quick. It has happened to a lot of fighters and athletes.

Canelo elite??? He lost to Floyd. Although, some say he lost to GGG and he lost to Lara IMO. Judges scored it a win, so how can he not be? This is different to losing in title fights, plus dude has moved up in weight as well.

Sometimes people want to lump sentimental value, what some have done for the sports and some of the wild fights to being elite and that's not the case for me.

Silva was Elite and had lost in years and he ran to Weidman and just like that he went from Great to washed. Same for BJ and a few others man. It is what it is. You can be elite and lose to lesser talent especially in MMA.

 

[bware113]

I would like to start by saying, **** Matt Hughes

Yes, we can say he beat Matt, but who are we kidding, Matt was washed aswell and that was the second to last fight for Matt which also lost the last fight to Kosheck

You realize he beat Matt in '04 too? On his WW debut no less. He's 2-1 against Matt

....with that said...

if he was Elite, he went to washed in just one fight

I mean yeah, sometimes it happens like that. Sometimes athletes don't experience a slow gradual fade into obscurity. Sometimes dudes hit a cliff. Continental shelf. That fall from grace come quick.

Chuck Liddell is regarded as one of the best to do it. Defintely elite for his time, BUT after his title win against Tito that put him at 20-3, he went on to lose his next 5 of 6. That mean he wasn't elite?

Shogun however, definitely elite. One of the Pride glory days guys. After Jones he went on to go 3-5. More gradual and he's losing to guys I would think you wouldn't consider to be elite in Gus and Chael. Hendo 2xs. Is Shogun not elite?

Silva was Elite and had lost in years and he ran to Weidman and just like that he went from Great to washed. Same for BJ and a few others man. It is what it is. You can be elite and lose to lesser talent especially in MMA

Exactly, therefore just because someone loses a lot in recent memory, especially past their prime, doesn't mean they weren't elite.

I have my own issues with the term 'washed' but we've all been down that road at least once before.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Jorge already stated he wasn’t training with Colby anymore but more from the coach

“No. Jorge and Colby aren’t training together anymore. They are in the gym together at the same time, but they both see the writing on the wall they have to fight each other,” Lambert told BJPENN.com. “They have gone their own ways in terms of training as they aren’t training together and I don’t blame them as they will have to potentially fight each other soon.”

 

[keko jones]

I would like to start by saying, **** Matt Hughes



You realize he beat Matt in '04 too? On his WW debut no less. He's 2-1 against Matt

....with that said...



I mean yeah, sometimes it happens like that. Sometimes athletes don't experience a slow gradual fade into obscurity. Sometimes dudes hit a cliff. Continental shelf. That fall from grace come quick.

Chuck Liddell is regarded as one of the best to do it. Defintely elite for his time, BUT after his title win against Tito that put him at 20-3, he went on to lose his next 5 of 6. That mean he wasn't elite?

Shogun however, definitely elite. One of the Pride glory days guys. After Jones he went on to go 3-5. More gradual and he's losing to guys I would think you wouldn't consider to be elite in Gus and Chael. Hendo 2xs. Is Shogun not elite?



Exactly, therefore just because someone loses a lot in recent memory, especially past their prime, doesn't mean they weren't elite.

I have my own issues with the term 'washed' but we've all been down that road at least once before.

Cruz lost against Faber and no way in hell I have Faber over Cruz.

My statements about BJ weren't about whether he was elite or not. They were to get my point across on why Frankie Edgar was not elite to me.

Like you stated some dudes fall off the cliff in a matter of one fight and that's exactly what happened to BJ. Frankie just so happen to be the first one to put those back to back Ls on his decline, but after than the spiral continued.

There are plenty of legends that aren't Elite or aren't Elite in MMA. Fedor, no doubt dude is a beast and Elite but he went to the Octagon and pretty much was mediocre.

Rampage, another beast, but he wasn't elite in the ring. Liddell was elite in KB and MMA but hit the wall, doesn't mean he wasn't elite.

So yes I do get it I don't let that cloud the judgment. I also don't count certain loses to avg fighters because **** happens moreso inside the Octagon. Prime example Rose dominating a fight and just because she held on was slammed unconscious.

Anyways .... that's my .02 on this .. youbattack certain beloved legends and it's open season.

I will not waiver that Frankie is not elite.

 

[shogun]

It’s ok for someone to admit their biased and the things they say is wrong.