Suit Accusing Harvard of Capping Asian-American Admissions Could Be Tried This Summer

[Brownstone]

Anyways. Back to the issue. Putting less academically qualified students up against more academically qualified students seems not fair to either side. It’s not like community college or state schools are trash. I don’t get this need of forced liberalism into these top tier schools.

Main question - do these affirmative action laws we have apply to any college (private or public)? What exactly (simply) is affirmative action within the college system?

Thats the trick, what do you quantify as academically qualified? I went to a college prep school, were my B's equal to the B's of the terrible public school around the corner, what about in reference to better prep schools? Other better public schools?

This is a grey area, and I agree that schools should use wholistic approaches to applicants. Schools have more and more foreign students that pay premium rates, and score high on admission tests. Should they be able to pull all of their students from foreign countries? No? How much is too much?......

This is turning into a broad discussion but all it comes down to is one student salty they didn't get into one school. What kills me is in these cases the student always gets into 5 other top schools, but they just can't go down without a fight.

 

[Kinfolk]

Drenched in ignorance seems like a nice way to say it doesn’t matter.

I’d say my opinion is actually more important because it’s millions of people like me who have a superficial interest or knowledge that shape what happens.

Main question - do these affirmative action laws we have apply to any college (private or public)? What exactly (simply) is affirmative action within the college system?

It's not that it doesn't matter as much as it is that you yourself have already admitted that you don't know what you're talking about.

So if you don't know what you're talking about because you have admitted that you're ignorant on the matter, HOW IN THE HELL could your opinion be more important? That makes absolutely no sense at all!!! And for that matter lets not even asses the importance of your opinion, let's talk about the objective level of quality of your opinion on the matter. How could you even begin to offer a sound opinion of any quality if you don't know what affirmative action is as it pertains to college admissions?

And to your last question- you don't even know what affirmative action is as it applies to college admissions... and yet in the same paragraph there you are trying to tell me that your opinion is more important.

Google is free.

Look up affirmative action.

Refine your logic and read some books.

 

[ballinsam23]

I’m not African or Asian American, but this is just hilarious to me. Sounds like a bunch of angry Asians who got rejected and are blaming other races for it. It’s the classic “they needed to fit their black quota” arguement.

If you’re really as qualified as you think, you’ll be successful regardless of what Ivy League you go to.

 

[Kinfolk]

I’m not African or Asian American, but this is just hilarious to me. Sounds like a bunch of angry Asians who got rejected and are blaming other races for it. It’s the classic “they needed to fit their black quota” arguement.

If you’re really as qualified as you think, you’ll be successful regardless of what Ivy League you go to.

It's actually an angry white guy who lost his suit in Texas, co opting another groups grievance in a larger effort to kill affirmative action.

You guys don't like to read. Sheesh.

There's nothing hilarious about it.

 

[maq25060]

I wrote this yesterday as a general comment, but it addresses why I find this so insulting:

Let's think about this for a second.

They are not going after legacies this hard that help unqualified affluent whites. They are not going after schools for prioritizing taking in affluent international students over educating local/domestic students. They are not taking issue with affirmative action on gender lines. Nope, they want to role back affirmative action along racial lines.

And they are taking money from white conservative groups and are using the 1964 Civil Rights act to argue their case. So a law mainly black people fought and died for, is now gonna help potentially lower their grandkids access to upper education. Furthermore, the Civil Rights movement helped past immigration reforms that helped tons more Asians enter America. Many of the students complaining about these admissions would not even be in America if it were not for black Civil Rights leaders and the black vote.

And of course, the implicit assertion that black applicants are less deserving of a spot. Little talk about how the education system works against African Americans, even affluent ones, that a black kid on average might have to deal with more BS to make it through K-12. Nah, let us act like everything is equal, we live in a perfect Rawlsian society, and black students don't have extra **** to overcome. But I guess this is where responsibility politics can be peddled to push back against this.

So little effort is being put toward making things equitable for all races, so little effort is being put into fixing the structural issues facing millions of kids, so little effort is put into making America is true meritocracy, so little effort is put into going after how affluent white and international students (a lot of from China) finesse the system; actions that will also help Asian American students as well. Instead attack the thing that is in place to help other minorities.

But Nah, let's ignore all the ways America systemically fail black and Latinos, and to add insult to injury lets take the money from groups extremely hostile to black people and use the 1964 Civil Rights Act to attack the little affirmative action that helps black folk. Indulge in the same behavior white people have been using to attack black communities for decades.

I criticized black dudes on NT in the past for going after Asian communities because to me that was punching down. Shading other marginalized group is always counterproductive and is always offensive. I would hope Asian posters on NT take time to consider the implications this will have for the black community before defending such things.

-More directly at you. Harvard to my knowledge does consider income and lets lower income kids go to school there tuition free. Secondly if you which to mainly a class entrance system that would mean more Black and Latinos getting in, which the people you claim "are just Asians looking out for Asians" would be against. And while the class v. direct race policy is a serious one, one country struggles with, I must remind you that while class policy helps that in many instances it is a downgrade and misses many socioeconomic factors at play. And class policy can be turned against the people who fought for it. Like in this case. The Civil Rights Act was written to help everyone, but is being used against black students now.

Harvard is not just letting kids in based on race. Look at the demographic breakdown, the African American student population is not represented in regards to the general population, Asians are. Harvard just tries to make their minority populations be reflective of the general public, the applicants are still qualified. There is not proof these students don't perform well.

You want to claim that this is innocuous just "Asians looking out for Asians" but if the win this case all the way to the Supreme Court that means it could be the case that school have to stop trying to African American students, qualified and on the margin a chance. Some Asians getting "help", at the expense of black students, and this campaign is funded by conservative whites to undermine the last bit of affirms action left and equality based policy in schools. Something they have been doing for years.

They are asking Asia students be helped not at the expense of affluent whites (who is probably benefit from this) but African Americans on the margin; and they are taking rich conservative money to fight this fight. It is white supremacy, and these Asia American people going this route are complicit in it. Just like the Peter Liang protesters

Excellent post. Wish the person who requested to know your views on the topic would have responded as they clearly don't agree with the stance.

 

[moderndarwin]

That lengthy post above makes a lot of real world sense. But to say each individual person or race isn’t going to first look out for its own benefit is naive. If Asians have to do it at the expense of black Americand that’s the American way. You don’t get to to top by being a liberal let’s save everyone type of person out here.

Not to by any means marginalize the importance of what that post said. All extremely valid points. But it’s not up to Asians to fight that fight. It’s up to everyone as a society to decide that it’s important enoguh to fight (e.g., favoritism, wealth kids, legacies).

That said..this is America. We want our wealth to get us nice stuff and nice options. Wealthy parents aren’t paying all that money so they can go to a school that’s giving everyone a “chance”. They are paying for their kids to build a network with other high wealth family kids and to get the best resources and education money can by.

We fundamentally as a society demean the value of bringing an equal chance to everyone. Someone tries to do it and we call them a socialist or commie. Can’t be both a capitalism and consumer driven society and also be a let’s get everyone food at the table type of society. I see people in San Francisco freak out because a dog was leashed to a pole in semi cold windy weather and was shaking while the owner was in the store and then two second later step around or over a homeless guy just laying there.

 

[Kinfolk]

That lengthy post above makes a lot of real world sense. But to say each individual person or race isn’t going to first look out for its own benefit is naive. If Asians have to do it at the expense of black Americand that’s the American way. You don’t get to to top by being a liberal let’s save everyone type of person out here.

Not to by any means marginalize the importance of what that post said. All extremely valid points. But it’s not up to Asians to fight that fight. It’s up to everyone as a society to decide that it’s important enoguh to fight (e.g., favoritism, wealth kids, legacies).

That said..this is America. We want our wealth to get us nice stuff and nice options. Wealthy parents aren’t paying all that money so they can go to a school that’s giving everyone a “chance”. They are paying for their kids to build a network with other high wealth family kids and to get the best resources and education money can by.

We fundamentally as a society demean the value of bringing an equal chance to everyone. Someone tries to do it and we call them a socialist or commie. Can’t be both a capitalism and consumer driven society and also be a let’s get everyone food at the table type of society. I see people in San Francisco freak out because a dog was leashed to a pole in semi cold windy weather and was shaking while the owner was in the store and then two second later step around or over a homeless guy just laying there.

All of this and you still don't know what affirmative action in college admissions is

 

[gry60]

That lengthy post above makes a lot of real world sense. But to say each individual person or race isn’t going to first look out for its own benefit is naive. If Asians have to do it at the expense of black Americand that’s the American way. You don’t get to to top by being a liberal let’s save everyone type of person out here.

Not to by any means marginalize the importance of what that post said. All extremely valid points. But it’s not up to Asians to fight that fight. It’s up to everyone as a society to decide that it’s important enoguh to fight (e.g., favoritism, wealth kids, legacies).

That said..this is America. We want our wealth to get us nice stuff and nice options. Wealthy parents aren’t paying all that money so they can go to a school that’s giving everyone a “chance”. They are paying for their kids to build a network with other high wealth family kids and to get the best resources and education money can by.

We fundamentally as a society demean the value of bringing an equal chance to everyone. Someone tries to do it and we call them a socialist or commie. Can’t be both a capitalism and consumer driven society and also be a let’s get everyone food at the table type of society. I see people in San Francisco freak out because a dog was leashed to a pole in semi cold windy weather and was shaking while the owner was in the store and then two second later step around or over a homeless guy just laying there.

Your mindset is all wrong.

 

[moderndarwin]

I give up NT...gonna go back to my apathy. I did look it up and read about it. Seems like this thread in here just wants to form one view and echo it and everyone else is wrong. I’m good on trying to have an actual discourse about it. Carry on.

 

[ninjahood]

Harvard should be forced to reveal their method to their acception process.

 

[gry60]

I give up NT...gonna go back to my apathy. I did look it up and read about it. Seems like this thread in here just wants to form one view and echo it and everyone else is wrong. I’m good on trying to have an actual discourse about it. Carry on.

That lengthy post above makes a lot of real world sense. But to say each individual person or race isn’t going to first look out for its own benefit is naive. If Asians have to do it at the expense of black Americand that’s the American way. You don’t get to to top by being a liberal let’s save everyone type of person out here.

This is why I said your mindset is 100% wrong. Wrong and proof that you are ignorant regarding the mechanisms that allowed people to even become a citizen of this country if you didn't descend from the original land owners of the US.

the Civil Rights movement helped past immigration reforms that helped tons more Asians enter America. Many of the students complaining about these admissions would not even be in America if it were not for black Civil Rights leaders and the black vote.

Not only that, every single American who was born here as the result of 20th century immigration owes their birthright citizenship to black slaves. Before the 14th amendment, the supreme Court upheld the idea that freed slaves and their children we're not automatic citizens of the country.

Can't get to the top here without being a citizen, and most of those complainers wouldn't be citizens if it weren't for black people.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it valid, so how about you don't get salty when proven wrong and actually learn something?

 

[hand2handking]

Can't be both a capitalism and consumer driven society and also be a let’s get everyone food at the table type of society.

https://niketalk.com/threads/the-so...-in-u-s-to-try-universal-basic-income.672747/

 

[wballz]

B.S.

As a former foreign student, I can tell you that the number of interview rejections skyrockets when you mention that you are here on a student visa. Companies are not trying to deal with transitioning from F-1 to work visas/permanent residency because it's an expense for them and USCIS is a ***** to deal with.

If he truly wanted to keep US-educated foreign students, he would do what the Canadians do (basically, staple a green card to your Bachelor's or grad degree).

His support is in line with tearing down any policy that levels access to opportunity.

Well it is Trump. Lip service perhaps. I never did see any action to that promise he made on the campaign trail.

For Canada, I believe work permits are granted. However, permanent residency and citizenship is another route. If you have a good employer, they can sponsor you on the road to a PR.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I give up NT...gonna go back to my apathy. I did look it up and read about it. Seems like this thread in here just wants to form one view and echo it and everyone else is wrong. I’m good on trying to have an actual discourse about it. Carry on.

We are discussing the issue. It seems like you are upset people don't agree with you.

Your capitalism comment was ridiculous btw. Look at tons of countries in Europe that have capitalist economies and also a robust welfare state, and wealth redistribution. The middle class in this country was built on a ton of redistributive programs that were denied to African Americans, the upper class is protected today from the harshness of capitalism through our tax code and financial laws.

 

[DADDYFATSACKS]

If affirmative action in colleges is overturned, colleges will become even whiter.

 

[moderndarwin]

Na not upset at all. Hopefully, you guys all get the outcome you want. My opinion may differ but I definitely don’t have all the right answers. And even if I did it’s not about being right...it’s about how you make people feel. Message boards don’t really translate that well.

I truly think the saddest part of America is that one of the races that basically was here at the foundational building of this country is now hundreds of years later still not completely comfortable with America being home. Lots of structural and systemic issues that make the life so much tougher.

I have my own opinions on how to fix it but I’m not gonna claim any sort of righteous feelings about it.

I just feel like affirmative action for getting into colleges is a bandaid to a bullet wound. Would prefer the attention to be more on how to get the kids in these communities the proper resources and support from 0-10 so that at 18 they already have a more equitable footing.

 

[ninjahood]

Look at tons of countries in Europe that have capitalist economies and also a robust welfare state, and wealth redistribution

cuz da USA underwrites their defense budget implied or otherwise.

 

[tomdiginson]

I give up NT...gonna go back to my apathy. I did look it up and read about it. Seems like this thread in here just wants to form one view and echo it and everyone else is wrong. I’m good on trying to have an actual discourse about it. Carry on.

You're mad no one agrees with you. Wash your face you delicate flower.

 

[gry60]

For Canada, I believe work permits are granted. However, permanent residency and citizenship is another route. If you have a good employer, they can sponsor you on the road to a PR.

I know many non-Canadians who chose to study there. All of them became residents after their studies. They started to apply for Canadian residency during their senior year, and upon reception of their diplomas, they got the approval from the government, with or without job offers.

Even now, they have a website set up where you can evaluate whether you will be accepted or not if you decide to move there as a skilled worker. Don't need a job to apply, but you'll need to be young, have a post-secondary education, years of professional experience, and money saved to increase your chances of being granted PR. What you mention regarding work visas is more or less how the US works.

You have 1 year of post study training (paid work in your area of study). If your employer wants to keep you, they have to convert your student visa into a work visa (those usually go very fast). The work visa is tied to the employer, and if you want to switch jobs, your new employer has to apply for a new work visa (those aren't cheap either). Your employer also decides whether they will sponsor you for a green card (they have to pay for that too). The process here is cumbersome and expensive, and companies just don't bother unless they truly have to.

 

[gry60]

I just feel like affirmative action for getting into colleges is a bandaid to a bullet wound. Would prefer the attention to be more on how to get the kids in these communities the proper resources and support from 0-10 so that at 18 they already have a more equitable footing.

Now this, I can agree with.
A movement to reform the way k-12 is funded, where all schools would be given adequate funding with a focus on educators and resources (rather than inflating administrators' salaries and building new HS stadiums), would go a long way in reducing the need for affirmative action.

Still, the fact remains that in a pluralistic society, non-specialized academic institutions will need to represent all perspectives in order to fulfill their mission of giving their students a hollistic education. An admission system based solely on test scores will never fulfill that need. In many countries where admission is based on entrance exam scores, there are still demographic quotas.

 

[hand2handking]

Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Affirmative Action Win Justice Dept. Support

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/us/politics/asian-students-affirmative-action-harvard.html

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department lent its support on Friday to students who are suing Harvard University over affirmative action policies that they claim discriminate against Asian-American applicants, in a case that could have far-reaching consequences for the use of affirmative action in college admissions.

In a so-called statement of interest, the department supported the claims of the plaintiffs, a group of Asian-Americans rejected by Harvard. They contend that Harvard has systematically discriminated against them by artificially capping the number of qualified Asian-Americans from attending the school in order to advance less qualified students of other races.

“Harvard has failed to carry its demanding burden to show that its use of race does not inflict unlawful racial discrimination on Asian Americans,” the Justice Department said in its filing.

The filing said that Harvard “uses a vague ‘personal rating’ that harms Asian-American applicants’ chances for admission and may be infected with racial bias; engages in unlawful racial balancing; and has never seriously considered race-neutral alternatives in its more than 45 years of using race to make admissions decisions.”

In its filing, the Justice Department argued that the court should deny Harvard’s request to dismiss the case before trial.

The government said that Supreme Court rulings require that universities considering race in admissions meet several standards. They must define their diversity-related goals and show that they cannot meet those goals without using race as a factor in admissions decisions.

The department argued that Harvard does not adequately explain how race factors into its admissions decisions, leaving open the possibility that the university is going beyond what the law allows.

“Harvard has failed to show that it does not unlawfully discriminate against Asian-Americans,” the Justice Department said in a statement Thursday.

The Harvard case, which was brought by an anti-affirmative-action group called Students for Fair Admissions, is seen as a test of whether a decades-long effort by conservative politicians and advocates to roll back affirmative action policies will ultimately succeed.

That push has broad support from President Trump. The Department of Education and Justice Department said in July that the administration was abandoning Obama-era policies that asked universities to consider race as a factor in diversifying their campuses and would favor race-blind admissions instead.

Officials from both departments said that the Obama administration had used guidelines to circumvent Congress and the courts to create affirmative action policies that went beyond existing law. The Trump administration contends that its stance on affirmative action adheres to the letter of the law and the opinions of the courts.

“The Supreme Court has determined what affirmative action policies are constitutional, and the court’s written decisions are the best guide for navigating this complex issue,” Education Secretary Betsy DeVos wrote in a statement when the guidance rollback was announced.

Civil rights leaders and others argue that this stance effectively undermines decades of policy progress that created opportunity for minorities, and that it has thrown race-conscious admissions into jeopardy.

The department typically files statements of interest in cases that it feels directly impact the federal government’s interests.

“As a recipient of taxpayer dollars, Harvard has a responsibility to conduct its admissions policy without racial discrimination by using meaningful admissions criteria that met lawful requirements,” Attorney General Jeff Sessions said in a statement.

briefs filed in support of Harvard at the end of July, students and alumni said that they “condemn” the plaintiffs’ “attempt to manufacture conflict between racial and ethnic groups in order to revive an unrelenting agenda to dismantle efforts to create a racially diverse and inclusive student body through college admissions.”

“It’s alarming that Trump is aligning himself with anti-civil rights activist Edward Blum in this subversive attempt to say that civil rights protections cause discrimination,” said Jeannie Park, the head of the Harvard Asian American Alumni Alliance, referring to the founder of Students for Fair Admissions. “Asian-Americans have long benefited from policies to increase equal opportunity and still do. Our fear is that Harvard’s admissions system is just the latest target in a larger fight to roll back protections for people of color in all fields, including government and business.”

At the heart of the case, is whether Harvard’s admissions staff hold Asian-Americans to higher standards than applicants of other racial or ethnic groups, and whether they use subjective measures, like personal scores, to cap the number of Asian students accepted to the school.

“It turns out that the suspicions of Asian-American alumni, students and applicants were right all along,” Students for Fair Admissions said in a court filing. “Harvard today engages in the same kind of discrimination and stereotyping that it used to justify quotas on Jewish applicants in the 1920s and 1930s.”

Harvard, which admitted less than 5 percent of its applicants this year, said that its own analysis did not find discrimination. The university has also noted that Mr. Blum has lost previous challenges to affirmative action policies.

A trial in the case has been scheduled for October.

If it winds its way to the Supreme Court, it could be heard by Judge Brett M. Kavanaugh, Mr. Trump’s nominee for the vacant seat once held by Justice Anthony M. Kennedy. The case could have far-reaching implications for the nation’s colleges and universities that consider race in their admissions processes.

The Justice Department is pursuing its own investigation into Harvard’s admissions policies based on a complaint it received.

 

[ninjahood]

i heard about it this morning on WNYC, a NPR affiliate.

very interesting.

 

[hand2handking]

damn if ninjahood find it interesting then its all bad

 

[sharpshooter718]

That lengthy post above makes a lot of real world sense. But to say each individual person or race isn’t going to first look out for its own benefit is naive. If Asians have to do it at the expense of black Americand that’s the American way. You don’t get to to top by being a liberal let’s save everyone type of person out here.

Not to by any means marginalize the importance of what that post said. All extremely valid points. But it’s not up to Asians to fight that fight. It’s up to everyone as a society to decide that it’s important enoguh to fight (e.g., favoritism, wealth kids, legacies).

That said..this is America. We want our wealth to get us nice stuff and nice options. Wealthy parents aren’t paying all that money so they can go to a school that’s giving everyone a “chance”. They are paying for their kids to build a network with other high wealth family kids and to get the best resources and education money can by.

We fundamentally as a society demean the value of bringing an equal chance to everyone. Someone tries to do it and we call them a socialist or commie. Can’t be both a capitalism and consumer driven society and also be a let’s get everyone food at the table type of society. I see people in San Francisco freak out because a dog was leashed to a pole in semi cold windy weather and was shaking while the owner was in the store and then two second later step around or over a homeless guy just laying there.

BUY

 

[ninjahood]

damn if ninjahood find it interesting then its all bad

i find it facsinating because it potentially blows open da sharade of diversity when its basically built of a facade that punishes overachieving asians. its actually an indictment on our work ethic vs international competitive cultural get up.

nyc goin thru da same thing with Stuyvesant High School being floooooooded with asians and yet its "not diverse".