Realistically, what has the sweep done to Kobe's legacy?

[wheredeydothatat]

i never again wanna hear anyone saying kobe can surpass mj

 

[Johnny_Cakes]

What hurts most is that he's been on the receiving end of these blowouts a lot. Simmons on Twitter put up the numbers for his teams getting thrown out of the playoffs in the last ten years, definitely not a good look (though as others have said before, it doesn't all fall on his shoulders).

Edit: just looked through the thread to see JD put the stats up.

 

[Johnny_Cakes]

What hurts most is that he's been on the receiving end of these blowouts a lot. Simmons on Twitter put up the numbers for his teams getting thrown out of the playoffs in the last ten years, definitely not a good look (though as others have said before, it doesn't all fall on his shoulders).

Edit: just looked through the thread to see JD put the stats up.

 

[lukethejediknight]

Originally Posted by E3LAL

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Do you think I'm that stupid?

People are saying you can't judge a player on the number of championships he has.

Yeah, and we gave a reason why. You didn't.

It was clear that LeBron values the # of championships associated with his name by him going to Miami.

This actually helps the "you don't win alone when your supporting cast doesn't step up" argument. Of course LBJ wants titles. He, like the rest of us (and Kobe as well) also knows that one player doesn't win by himself.

Which makes using "ring count" to compare players all the more stupid.

So what do you judge a player by? Unless you are using advanced statistics, your numbers probably don't tell the whole story.  To judge a player, you better watch all the games and understand each player's situation.  You seem to be completely dismissing "ring count" but that is important part of a player's legacy b/c it shows they were atop at some point.  Of course I'm not saying Robert Horry is top 10 all-time.  I guess I'm the only one who associates a player to his # of rings first.

For the record, I think it is a little %*#%% in his legacy being that he's the undisputed leader but time is a cure-all for everything and only those "haters" or whatever will bring it up.






I watch the games and use whatever data is available. Kobe I think should be a top 10 player.

 

[lukethejediknight]

Originally Posted by E3LAL

Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight

Do you think I'm that stupid?

People are saying you can't judge a player on the number of championships he has.

Yeah, and we gave a reason why. You didn't.

It was clear that LeBron values the # of championships associated with his name by him going to Miami.

This actually helps the "you don't win alone when your supporting cast doesn't step up" argument. Of course LBJ wants titles. He, like the rest of us (and Kobe as well) also knows that one player doesn't win by himself.

Which makes using "ring count" to compare players all the more stupid.

So what do you judge a player by? Unless you are using advanced statistics, your numbers probably don't tell the whole story.  To judge a player, you better watch all the games and understand each player's situation.  You seem to be completely dismissing "ring count" but that is important part of a player's legacy b/c it shows they were atop at some point.  Of course I'm not saying Robert Horry is top 10 all-time.  I guess I'm the only one who associates a player to his # of rings first.

For the record, I think it is a little %*#%% in his legacy being that he's the undisputed leader but time is a cure-all for everything and only those "haters" or whatever will bring it up.






I watch the games and use whatever data is available. Kobe I think should be a top 10 player.

 

[mr jordan04]

Originally Posted by Big J 33

It's a team game.

Kobe didn't knock down Dirk or Barea... he didn't turn Pau Gasol into a little girl... he didn't personally let the Mavs make every one of there 3's

It doesn't help his legacy, but we shouldn't overreact and pretend he's now a fraud or overrated.

 

[mr jordan04]

Originally Posted by Big J 33

It's a team game.

Kobe didn't knock down Dirk or Barea... he didn't turn Pau Gasol into a little girl... he didn't personally let the Mavs make every one of there 3's

It doesn't help his legacy, but we shouldn't overreact and pretend he's now a fraud or overrated.

 

[you big dummy]

Originally Posted by JD617

I'll just say this, when his teams lose, they do it in really spectacular fashion.

Some of you may think my request to be foolish.  Surely, the Los Angeles Lakers know that their season teeters on the brink tonight.  Surely, they know that anything less than desperation will see them make a quick and inauspicious exit from these playoff proceedings.  Surely, a team led by Kobe Bryant, one of the fiercest competitors in the history of the game, will make sure that, if the Lakers are to make their end, they will make that end attempting to be the legends they have built themselves up to be.
As strange as it is to conceive, history says it isn't so.  No team which has included Kobe Bryant as a member has ever gone out with a bang, unless it is in victory.  It's stunning how badly Bryant's teams have performed in the final moments of seasons in which a banner was not earned.  Check out the list:

• 1997:  Defeated in the second round in 5 games by the Utah Jazz, including Kobe's infamous last shot airballs
• 1998: Same team, even worse result.  The Jazz swept the Lakers in the second round
• 1999: Swept in the second round this time by the San Antonio Spurs
• 2000-2002: Rings
• 2003: Defeated in the second round in 6 games by the Spurs.  Game 6 was a 28 point beatdown
• 2004: Defeated in the NBA Finals in 5 games by the Detroit Pistons.  Heavily favored coming in, the Lakers lost 3 of the four games by double digits, and the one game they won required a deep three pointer by Bryant to send the game into overtime.  This was basically the first five game sweep in history.
• 2005: Missed playoffs.  For what it's worth, the Lakers also ended the season 2-19 down the stretch
• 2006: Defeated in the first round in 7 games by the Phoenix Suns.  Although their overall performance in the series was quite admirable, the Lakers lost a 3-1 series lead, and Game 7 was the infamous "Kobe gave up" game.  Whether you believe in that narrative or not, that game, in which the Lakers lost by 29, was most certainly a whimper
• 2007: The Suns dispatched the Lakers with ease in the first round, winning in 5 games
• 2008: Defeated by the Boston Celtics in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with the final game a 39 point annnihilation
• 2009-2010: More rings
• 2011: Swept by Mavs, routed in final game by 36.

And that's the list.  It really is absolutely incredible.  No Laker team that has included Kobe Bryant has ended the season with a strong, fight to the last man effort, unless that season has ended with a championship.  In all the other seasons, his teams have bowed out with tails between their legs.

 

[you big dummy]

Originally Posted by JD617

I'll just say this, when his teams lose, they do it in really spectacular fashion.

Some of you may think my request to be foolish.  Surely, the Los Angeles Lakers know that their season teeters on the brink tonight.  Surely, they know that anything less than desperation will see them make a quick and inauspicious exit from these playoff proceedings.  Surely, a team led by Kobe Bryant, one of the fiercest competitors in the history of the game, will make sure that, if the Lakers are to make their end, they will make that end attempting to be the legends they have built themselves up to be.
As strange as it is to conceive, history says it isn't so.  No team which has included Kobe Bryant as a member has ever gone out with a bang, unless it is in victory.  It's stunning how badly Bryant's teams have performed in the final moments of seasons in which a banner was not earned.  Check out the list:

• 1997:  Defeated in the second round in 5 games by the Utah Jazz, including Kobe's infamous last shot airballs
• 1998: Same team, even worse result.  The Jazz swept the Lakers in the second round
• 1999: Swept in the second round this time by the San Antonio Spurs
• 2000-2002: Rings
• 2003: Defeated in the second round in 6 games by the Spurs.  Game 6 was a 28 point beatdown
• 2004: Defeated in the NBA Finals in 5 games by the Detroit Pistons.  Heavily favored coming in, the Lakers lost 3 of the four games by double digits, and the one game they won required a deep three pointer by Bryant to send the game into overtime.  This was basically the first five game sweep in history.
• 2005: Missed playoffs.  For what it's worth, the Lakers also ended the season 2-19 down the stretch
• 2006: Defeated in the first round in 7 games by the Phoenix Suns.  Although their overall performance in the series was quite admirable, the Lakers lost a 3-1 series lead, and Game 7 was the infamous "Kobe gave up" game.  Whether you believe in that narrative or not, that game, in which the Lakers lost by 29, was most certainly a whimper
• 2007: The Suns dispatched the Lakers with ease in the first round, winning in 5 games
• 2008: Defeated by the Boston Celtics in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with the final game a 39 point annnihilation
• 2009-2010: More rings
• 2011: Swept by Mavs, routed in final game by 36.

And that's the list.  It really is absolutely incredible.  No Laker team that has included Kobe Bryant has ended the season with a strong, fight to the last man effort, unless that season has ended with a championship.  In all the other seasons, his teams have bowed out with tails between their legs.

 

[e3lal]

So one more question, do you think just having a single championship helps validate (IDK if I'm using the right word, but I hope you get the jist) a player's career.  IMO it helped the Boston big 3.  When I think of LeBron in 20 years, I'm going to think of his 5+ championships first, not who his teammates were.

*I don't soley use "ring count" nor does it play a big role.

 

[e3lal]

So one more question, do you think just having a single championship helps validate (IDK if I'm using the right word, but I hope you get the jist) a player's career.  IMO it helped the Boston big 3.  When I think of LeBron in 20 years, I'm going to think of his 5+ championships first, not who his teammates were.

*I don't soley use "ring count" nor does it play a big role.

 

[decepticon0]

Originally Posted by chillainvillain

Does he drop down on your all time greatest players list? How much did this hurt his legacy?

Nope, he never gave up, his teammates did.

Three straight trips to the finals winning two of them, a gold medal in 08 Summer Olympics before the first finals appearance also. He's played a lot of basketball over the past couple of years. Time to rest, come back again next season to start another championship run. I wanted this championship for Phil than the players, it just didn't go as planned.

 

[decepticon0]

Originally Posted by chillainvillain

Does he drop down on your all time greatest players list? How much did this hurt his legacy?

Nope, he never gave up, his teammates did.

Three straight trips to the finals winning two of them, a gold medal in 08 Summer Olympics before the first finals appearance also. He's played a lot of basketball over the past couple of years. Time to rest, come back again next season to start another championship run. I wanted this championship for Phil than the players, it just didn't go as planned.

 

[dmncn lew]

Magic is the Greatest Laker of ALL Time. You give Magic two 7 footers and those guys would run through a brick wall for him. Kobe has more individual talent but Magic is better for the team.

 

[dmncn lew]

Magic is the Greatest Laker of ALL Time. You give Magic two 7 footers and those guys would run through a brick wall for him. Kobe has more individual talent but Magic is better for the team.

 

[xsalvioutlawx]

Even if Lakers had lost this series in 7 games, this thread would of been made.

The majority of Kobe haters had to stay away for a few years now they finally get to come out and play.

Can't blame yall, have fun.

 

[xsalvioutlawx]

Even if Lakers had lost this series in 7 games, this thread would of been made.

The majority of Kobe haters had to stay away for a few years now they finally get to come out and play.

Can't blame yall, have fun.

 

[lukethejediknight]

Originally Posted by E3LAL

So one more question, do you think just having a single championship helps validate (IDK if I'm using the right word, but I hope you get the jist) a player's career.  IMO it helped the Boston big 3.  When I think of LeBron in 20 years, I'm going to think of his 5+ championships first, not who his teammates were.

*I don't soley use "ring count" nor does it play a big role.

The Boston 3 weren't "validated" with a ring. It just meant they finally got on a great team.Like I said, titles are a team function. Can't compare individuals using team achievements.

 

[lukethejediknight]

Originally Posted by E3LAL

So one more question, do you think just having a single championship helps validate (IDK if I'm using the right word, but I hope you get the jist) a player's career.  IMO it helped the Boston big 3.  When I think of LeBron in 20 years, I'm going to think of his 5+ championships first, not who his teammates were.

*I don't soley use "ring count" nor does it play a big role.

The Boston 3 weren't "validated" with a ring. It just meant they finally got on a great team.Like I said, titles are a team function. Can't compare individuals using team achievements.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by Wilroc

Phil's legacy probably took the greatest hit today. Maybe not but the Lakers really disrespected him big time down the stretch. Showed no effort and no class.
Phils LAST game as an NBA coach and the players go out like that 

this. 

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by Wilroc

Phil's legacy probably took the greatest hit today. Maybe not but the Lakers really disrespected him big time down the stretch. Showed no effort and no class.
Phils LAST game as an NBA coach and the players go out like that 

this. 

 

[doyung9]

Originally Posted by AIRjuhst

nobody remembers when Jordan was swept 2 years in a row by the Celtics?

What round was that? What year was that?

 

[doyung9]

Originally Posted by AIRjuhst

nobody remembers when Jordan was swept 2 years in a row by the Celtics?

What round was that? What year was that?

 

[emm23]

Originally Posted by you big dummy

Originally Posted by JD617

I'll just say this, when his teams lose, they do it in really spectacular fashion.

Some of you may think my request to be foolish.  Surely, the Los Angeles Lakers know that their season teeters on the brink tonight.  Surely, they know that anything less than desperation will see them make a quick and inauspicious exit from these playoff proceedings.  Surely, a team led by Kobe Bryant, one of the fiercest competitors in the history of the game, will make sure that, if the Lakers are to make their end, they will make that end attempting to be the legends they have built themselves up to be.
As strange as it is to conceive, history says it isn't so.  No team which has included Kobe Bryant as a member has ever gone out with a bang, unless it is in victory.  It's stunning how badly Bryant's teams have performed in the final moments of seasons in which a banner was not earned.  Check out the list:

• 1997:  Defeated in the second round in 5 games by the Utah Jazz, including Kobe's infamous last shot airballs
• 1998: Same team, even worse result.  The Jazz swept the Lakers in the second round
• 1999: Swept in the second round this time by the San Antonio Spurs
• 2000-2002: Rings
• 2003: Defeated in the second round in 6 games by the Spurs.  Game 6 was a 28 point beatdown
• 2004: Defeated in the NBA Finals in 5 games by the Detroit Pistons.  Heavily favored coming in, the Lakers lost 3 of the four games by double digits, and the one game they won required a deep three pointer by Bryant to send the game into overtime.  This was basically the first five game sweep in history.
• 2005: Missed playoffs.  For what it's worth, the Lakers also ended the season 2-19 down the stretch
• 2006: Defeated in the first round in 7 games by the Phoenix Suns.  Although their overall performance in the series was quite admirable, the Lakers lost a 3-1 series lead, and Game 7 was the infamous "Kobe gave up" game.  Whether you believe in that narrative or not, that game, in which the Lakers lost by 29, was most certainly a whimper
• 2007: The Suns dispatched the Lakers with ease in the first round, winning in 5 games
• 2008: Defeated by the Boston Celtics in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with the final game a 39 point annnihilation
• 2009-2010: More rings
• 2011: Swept by Mavs, routed in final game by 36.

And that's the list.  It really is absolutely incredible.  No Laker team that has included Kobe Bryant has ended the season with a strong, fight to the last man effort, unless that season has ended with a championship.  In all the other seasons, his teams have bowed out with tails between their legs.

 

[emm23]

Originally Posted by you big dummy

Originally Posted by JD617

I'll just say this, when his teams lose, they do it in really spectacular fashion.

Some of you may think my request to be foolish.  Surely, the Los Angeles Lakers know that their season teeters on the brink tonight.  Surely, they know that anything less than desperation will see them make a quick and inauspicious exit from these playoff proceedings.  Surely, a team led by Kobe Bryant, one of the fiercest competitors in the history of the game, will make sure that, if the Lakers are to make their end, they will make that end attempting to be the legends they have built themselves up to be.
As strange as it is to conceive, history says it isn't so.  No team which has included Kobe Bryant as a member has ever gone out with a bang, unless it is in victory.  It's stunning how badly Bryant's teams have performed in the final moments of seasons in which a banner was not earned.  Check out the list:

• 1997:  Defeated in the second round in 5 games by the Utah Jazz, including Kobe's infamous last shot airballs
• 1998: Same team, even worse result.  The Jazz swept the Lakers in the second round
• 1999: Swept in the second round this time by the San Antonio Spurs
• 2000-2002: Rings
• 2003: Defeated in the second round in 6 games by the Spurs.  Game 6 was a 28 point beatdown
• 2004: Defeated in the NBA Finals in 5 games by the Detroit Pistons.  Heavily favored coming in, the Lakers lost 3 of the four games by double digits, and the one game they won required a deep three pointer by Bryant to send the game into overtime.  This was basically the first five game sweep in history.
• 2005: Missed playoffs.  For what it's worth, the Lakers also ended the season 2-19 down the stretch
• 2006: Defeated in the first round in 7 games by the Phoenix Suns.  Although their overall performance in the series was quite admirable, the Lakers lost a 3-1 series lead, and Game 7 was the infamous "Kobe gave up" game.  Whether you believe in that narrative or not, that game, in which the Lakers lost by 29, was most certainly a whimper
• 2007: The Suns dispatched the Lakers with ease in the first round, winning in 5 games
• 2008: Defeated by the Boston Celtics in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with the final game a 39 point annnihilation
• 2009-2010: More rings
• 2011: Swept by Mavs, routed in final game by 36.

And that's the list.  It really is absolutely incredible.  No Laker team that has included Kobe Bryant has ended the season with a strong, fight to the last man effort, unless that season has ended with a championship.  In all the other seasons, his teams have bowed out with tails between their legs.