***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[rexanglorum]

Yeah, like let’s just see if we can get these banks in check first before you just go saying school is gonna be free.

no one made you rack up 120k in debt... but also no one made these banks charge insane interest rates.

just because the job market is trash for new College grads doesn’t just mean school has to be free.

look at the bigger picture, why is it trash? Giving out free school isn’t going to fix that.

people need to think long and hard before they go and drop 60 racks on a liberal arts degree and then go crying they can’t pay it back.

if you aren’t going to school for STEM these days don’t even bother going.

I’m not against free school but that isn’t happening in my lifetime so you might as well shoot for something a little more realistic.

Lemme guess, you thought that the New Star Wars trilogy was too PC and written to appeal to SJWs?

Seriously, drink some ipecac and expel that red pill that you swallowed while there's still time. We need solidarity with ALL workers no matter what they studied in school.

I think more and more employees are transitioning to systems where they pay for a portion of college since the positions they needs to fill are tough to get good applicants. It’s definitely more reasonable to do a 0% loan then try to do free college. My loans were/are at like 5%-7% and it still baffles me why it’s twice as expensive to get a student loan than it is to get a car/home loan

Doesn't it bother you that someone who parents paid for their schooling gets to start off life with a major head start over you? I'm sure you know that personal wealth accumulation can have a snowballing effect and you having to remit a chunk of your income for several years after you graduate sets you behind your wealthier peers.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

AliExpress Obama realizes that he's finished after Super Tuesday.

AliExpress Obama

As an avid user of AliExpress in the early days, this is such a vicious burn on Pete.

So much junk that I waited like 40 days to arrive only for it to be pure garbage.

Had to learn to get my stuff straight from the source, now I WeChat with factories and get the finest fake clothes.

 

[mplsdunk]

The only reason all tradesman don’t make good money is because of union busting.

you don’t have that problem in a blue state like MN. The unions are going to high schools an recruiting kids for good jobs with FREE healthcare and free training.

All these problems; student load debt, no healthcare, horrible paying jobs etc. Are a direct result of the Republicans war on unions.

this needs to be talked about more, you have to organize. You need to demand healthcare and safe working conditions. Organizing is a hell of a lot easier than hoping the president will pass m4a and give out free tuition.

I’m not against him doing either but this is one way you can help yourself without waiting for that to happen.

 

[mplsdunk]

Lemme guess, you thought that the New Star Wars trilogy was too PC and written to appeal to SJWs?

Seriously, drink some ipecac and expel that red pill that you swallowed while there's still time. We need solidarity with ALL workers no matter what they studied in school.




Doesn't it bother you that someone who parents paid for their schooling gets to start off life with a major head start over you? I'm sure you know that personal wealth accumulation can have a snowballing effect and you having to remit a chunk of your income for several years after you graduate sets you behind your wealthier peers.

bruh what?

red pill? I didn’t even see this post but I’m def not eating red pills.

because you went to school for geology and can’t pay back 100k in student loans I'm a republican?

I’m ALL for solidarity, I just made a post about organizing but you need to be realistic with yourself and what you choose to go to school for.

So you’d stand behind me if I spent 100k to learn to be a blacksmith and make swords? I’m all for solidarity but try and pick a career that is relevant.

 

[RustyShackleford]

AliExpress Obama

As an avid user of AliExpress in the early days, this is such a vicious burn on Pete.

So much junk that I waited like 40 days to arrive only for it to be pure garbage.

Had to learn to get my stuff straight from the source, now I WeChat with factories and get the finest fake clothes.

You do this too?

I had a Chinese homie at UNLV that had a plug back in China. He had every goon on campus draped in fake Yeezys and Louie V.

Famb was brining it fake Gucci belts by the case load, and slangin them all over East Vegas. Had dudes named Marcus, Tavaris and Reggie downloading WeChat to put in orders.

 

[Armada]

Only valuing certain fields people can make good money in is imo why we have such an uneducated populace now. We made the goal of education to come out of the other end to make money not to be a smarter, better well rounded human being that contributes to society. We made education a conveyor belt of people choosing to do things they don’t even feel strongly about just so they make money to survive when they could probably contribute more to society if they where able to do what they cared about

 

[Mark Antony]

I hate that we're almost conditioned to ask "where is the money going to come from" for things that will help poor/regular folks yet never do the same for defense spending or corporate benefits.

 

[Mark Antony]

AliExpress Obama

As an avid user of AliExpress in the early days, this is such a vicious burn on Pete.

So much junk that I waited like 40 days to arrive only for it to be pure garbage.

Had to learn to get my stuff straight from the source, now I WeChat with factories and get the finest fake clothes.

Man you were lit if you found a legit subcontractor.

 

[junglejim]

Lemme guess, you thought that the New Star Wars trilogy was too PC and written to appeal to SJWs?

Seriously, drink some ipecac and expel that red pill that you swallowed while there's still time. We need solidarity with ALL workers no matter what they studied in school.




Doesn't it bother you that someone who parents paid for their schooling gets to start off life with a major head start over you? I'm sure you know that personal wealth accumulation can have a snowballing effect and you having to remit a chunk of your income for several years after you graduate sets you behind your wealthier peers.

Not necessarily. I would like college to be free because it’s more and more a barrier to entry even for basic jobs that should require little education, butI knew a lot of people who had their college paid for that didn’t take it seriously and probably never should have been there in the first place. Hell, my roommate ended up dealing weed for awhile then ended up dropping out and working at a repair shop at a local auto dealership. While it would have been nice not to be saddled with $60K in student loan debt, I think it made me focus harder knowing the stakes if I didn’t graduate with a good GPA and get a good job.

That being said, I fully realize that even with the debt I took on I’m still probably in a much better situation than most of my peers. If enough people are saying it’s a huge problem then there should be serious steps to take to make loans/education more affordable while still making people take it seriously and I think eliminating interest is a good start. I think it took me 4 years before I started paying actual principle on my student loans after graduation because there wasn’t enough Stafford Loans available so I had to get private loans which did not allow interest deferment until graduation. That is beyond ridiculous to me and I think that would be the easiest thing to fix.

I just don’t think someone is going to be able to come into office and be able to give someone free college, free health care, increased retirement income, paid maternity/paternity leave, spend trillions weening is off fossil fuels, etc. As much as we would all like it too happen immediately it’s unrealistic and will take time

 

[mplsdunk]

Yes, I get that.

the teacher is as important as the doctor which is as important as the garbage man.

I don’t believe all jobs are important... call me a republican if you need to.

the meter maid isn’t important, the Comcast sales rep harassing you at Costco isn’t important. The dude screaming at you in the middle of the mall selling fake Gucci bejeweled cell phone cases isn’t important.

 

[RustyShackleford]

bruh what?

red pill? I didn’t even see this post but I’m def not eating red pills.

because you went to school for geology and can’t pay back 100k in student loans I'm a republican?

I’m ALL for solidarity, I just made a post about organizing but you need to be realistic with yourself and what you choose to go to school for.

So you’d stand behind me if I spent 100k to learn to be a blacksmith and make swords? I’m all for solidarity but try and pick a career that is relevant.

Let us remember these people make these decision when they are 17-18. One decision that puts them on a path that basically ruins their economics prospects for the rest of their life.

This "you should have done such and such" degree is crazy flippant especially when we had boomers raise to middle and upper management with only liberal arts degrees.

One of the reason I got the position I have now is because I was a better writer than the other candidates, because writing report for clients is a import for my division. Now if I wanted to hire a junior data analyst it would be cool for my to hire someone with a Stats degree and is a trash writer, then train them to improve their writing. But if I wanted to hire an English major and teach them how to code in SAS and some basic stats, that is not allowed.

Sure we need to kid the info to make more informed decisions, but we have to greatly shrink the cost of make a unwise decision, and drop these silly stigma we put on kids that don't have STEM and analytical degrees.

 

[mplsdunk]

Well kids need to think long and hard about what they go to school for and how much they will pay.

that’s what I’m getting at, don’t fall into a trap at 18.

yea boomers had it easy, but you gotta realize you’re gonna be fighting an uphill battle that they didn’t have and you might have to change your tactics vs theirs.

 

[-Red-]

No

I am not dropping anything because all this is an attempt to hand wave.

If Bernie says we should guarantee healthcare to everyone as a right, then I agree. He thinks we should look and be like other countries, to do what's right, then I agree. Then the natural question would be, "everyone does stuff differently" what plan are we going to use. The answer is smartly single-payer, ok cool, many uses in different ways so I guess we'll have our variety, no problem. But then when the specifics of the plan come out, and I read the details, why can't I ask the fundamental question I thought you said we were going to be like other countries?

If the answer is that we are going to do our own thing, then why the hell does Bernie keep name dropping these other countries when we are going to do something unique. You used Canada in discussion with osh kosh bosh . Other Bernie supporters name drop other countries and the similarities between what Bernie is proposing. So it is cool for Bernie and you to use other countries to make our case, but when I bring up the differences, it is a problem?

I am not saying we have to be like another country; we can do our own thing. But when I suggest doing something other than M4A, here comes the damn comparisons to other countries again. You want me to stop bringing them up because who cares. Then how about Bernie, you and everyone else shut up about them too, and I will be happy to oblige. Until then, I am not dropping it.

Or would you prefer I ignore his words because it is politically inconvenient for his supporters to defend them? Because this is what it sounds like you really want.

I agree with the benefits of M4A, I don't think I have ever talked against them on those grounds, but Bernie and M4A main pitch to people is on the grounds of getting to universal coverage, to guarantee health insurance for everyone. He has brought up the other things, but when pressed on specifics, he runs back to the moral argument about how unjust the systems are. Now all the other restructuring I generally agree with. I have told you that I even said in a perfect world, I would prefer Socialized Medicine over Bernie's plans. That much more work needs to be done beyond M4A. I have said this in conversations with you. So please stop repeating the benefits of M4A like I don't know them, understand them, or have not agreed with them in here before. I get them, but I have an interest in policy, it is kind of my job too. All I am always asking it to discuss the economics, and once they conversation gets hard in that area, you guys do what Bernie's does, act like if we are not 100% on board with and against universal coverage.

In short, Nah, not dropping anything. If you don't want to grapple with the economics or politics it beyond what helps your argument, then cool, do you.

But you can't ask me to be informed and ignorant at the same time.

How is this an attempt to handwave? Again, no one that I'm aware of, including Bernie has said "We need to have a system just like xyz country, and that's what Medicare for All will be." In terms of the international comparisons, Bernie and others are making two points: (1) that we pay the most per capita on healthcare in this country in relation to comparable countries yet have the worst health outcomes, and (2) that we are the only such country that doesn't have universal healthcare. None of this is inaccurate. You can and have made the point that M4A isn't the only way to do universal healthcare. Okay, that's fine. But that's a different point than the point of the international comparisons being invoked. I don't see how this isn't clear. I don't prefer you ignore anything, I just have no idea what point you're trying to make that isn't being readily acknowledged.

The reason I brought up the other benefits of M4A is because you seemed to be trying to reduce the conversation to universal healthcare, which is one element of M4A. The point you've made time and again in here is M4A isn't the only way to get to universal coverage. My point is that Bernie's pitch for M4A isn't just based on universal coverage, nor has my position been simply about that in here (I don't know the particulars of everyone else's contributions to the conversation). I didn't say nor even insinuate that you were against those aspects of M4A. My point was that you can't reduce the conversation to just universal coverage, because the conversation is much bigger than that. I know that you know this, so I don't understand why you so often seem to do this in these conversations.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Well kids need to think long and hard about what they go to school for and how much they will pay.

that’s what I’m getting at, don’t fall into a trap at 18.

Ok I here you, but before you lecture 18 year olds about their decisions.

Think about how stupid, impulsive, and short sighted you were at 18.

 

[HIM]

 

[junglejim]

Ok I here you, but before you lecture 18 year olds about their decisions.

Think about how stupid, impulsive, and short sighted you were at 18.

I just got the paperwork back for some loans I recently paid off and I can tell just by looking at the damn forms that I had no idea what the **** I was doing. There were 3 different boxes for what type of loan I wanted to take out and I had checked all three boxes at one point and crossed two of them out

At 17 I wasn’t old enough to get my own car loan, but they sure as hell didn’t have a problem saddling me with a 7% interest loan

a couple of the loans I took out I didn’t even know were 20 year loans versus 10

 

[rexanglorum]

bruh what?

red pill? I didn’t even see this post but I’m def not eating red pills.

because you went to school for geology and can’t pay back 100k in student loans I'm a republican?

I’m ALL for solidarity, I just made a post about organizing but you need to be realistic with yourself and what you choose to go to school for.

So you’d stand behind me if I spent 100k to learn to be a blacksmith and make swords? I’m all for solidarity but try and pick a career that is relevant.

What is a useful degree can shift and change over time. A big reason why STEM degrees sometimes pay well (plenty of people are struggling who have STEM degrees) is largely because of two things: a huge Military Research and Development budget which acts as a giant jobs program for engineers and massive infusions of Venture Capital money into Silicon Valley. The former can go away due to political changes and the latter will go away when the next recession happens.

The 22 year old in 2020, who wisely incurred debt to get a marketable electrical engineering degree, may get a 90k job offer from Raytheon but will get laid off in 2022 when the DoD budget gets cut. he's now stuck with a now unmarketable degree (or at least one that pays far less than he had anticipated). Meanwhile, in 2022, we increase spending for mental health and counseling service. Suddenly, sociology major have more job opportunities and are making much more money. That non STEM degree became more marketable.

Why do we ask 17-24 year olds to be better at predicting economic outcomes in the future and if they fail, they are condemned to a life of poverty? We don't ask that of seasoned financial professionals. We let Hedge fund managers and Private Equity barons avail themselves and their investors of bankruptcy protections and bailouts when they make bad bets on the future.

I don't think you're a Republican but when you talk about college graduates as though they are no part of the broader working class and they deserve to be at the mercy of capitalists and capital markets, you're playing into the framing that conservatives have of the world. If you have to sell your labor, you're a worker and need to be included into the umbrella of solidarity no matter if you work with a pen or sickle or a hammer.


Edit: just so you know, I usually have to remind college educated folks of this fact and I do so much more forcefully. Or more precisely, lots of people who sell their labor at white collar jobs think they are distinct and apart from the working class and try to pathologize non college workers. I got absolutely no patience for that.

 

[deuce king]

At Sunday diner next week, Prime gonna be letting his nuts hang, just rubbing it in on deuce king

He gonna make Big Momma put on some Stevie, and dance the night away like...

Imma need Kamala Harris to go ahead and endorse Bern. Stick the knife all the way in on Deuce

This is one of those laugh now cry later posts for you RustyShackleford . Not really impressed with the old guy thus far given the two states he won. The fact that US Intelligence has stated that Russia WANTS Bernie Sanders to win just so he can face off against Trump and eventually lose should be telling enough to all individuals, particularly Democratic voters. I’m more interested to see how Bernie does with black people (or People Of Color as rolaholic would say) in South Carolina and beyond.

As far as Kamala Harris potentially endorsing Bernie Sanders as you suggested .......it doesn’t and wouldn’t shock me to see Kamala stand side by side next to a white man......just more of the same from her.

 

[mplsdunk]

Ok I here you, but before you lecture 18 year olds about their decisions.

Think about how stupid, impulsive, and short sighted you were at 18.

Was dumb af

was an iron worker apprentice then the economy tanked. Bye bye good job.

but yeah I hear you I wasn’t making the best decisions.

 

[mr s j king]

well

1. george w bush aint have a "below average presidency" he's literally by any objective measure the worst modern era president ever,

2. What makes you say that? Bernie been in congress for like what 30 years? he's been an effective legislator, he made the right compromises when it was time to get deals done,

he didn't pull Ted Cruz style shenanigans to **** over the whole party.

the difference between a Bernie Sanders presidency and Joe Biden or any other democrat is going to be tiny. people need to relax.
[/QUO

Bush was a figure head that was put in the white house to continue the oil heist

Its not Bernie that concerns me
Its the people pulling Bernie's strings that concerns me

 

[rexanglorum]

I just don’t think someone is going to be able to come into office and be able to give someone free college, free health care, increased retirement income, paid maternity/paternity leave, spend trillions weening is off fossil fuels, etc. As much as we would all like it too happen immediately it’s unrealistic and will take time

As a political matter it will be a huge fight.

As an economic matter it is quite doable. the money is there, it's just in the accounts of billionaire right now. They got rich by making young people bare the entire cost of their education, they got rich by making new parents report back to work immediately, they got rich making people work while sick, they got rich by charging deductibles and copays, they got rich by making people work into old age, they got rich by destroying our biosphere.

 

[junglejim]

Bush was a figure head that was put in the white house to continue the oil heist

Its not Bernie that concerns me
Its the people pulling Bernie's strings that concerns me

Bernie has large donors controlling his campaign?

 

[-Red-]

From your I get the impression you have bought into him as a person, but as much as you have bought into his policies. Let anyone say anything about Bernie, and you jump on them. If I didn't extensively show my work to back up any criticism I made of Bernie, you are somewhat ready to write it off like some lie, especially when we first started to engage. Dude, you made the argument that you could tell be Warren's body language that he was trying to put on an act to hurt Bernie. A story about some source said some Democrat said something bad about Bernie, and you buy it. Complaining that Bernie is the only one criticized in here when that was clearly not true. So yeah, my dude, it seems you are just as invested in the person too, not just the vision.

It is not minutiae, people need to snap out of this way of thinking. There are important things to work out. It is not something that can be wiped up in a short time without extensive hearings. Funding for the program is trillions short; it is a significant restructuring out a large part of the economy, budget, and tax code, it is not trivial. No one's going to force it through without grappling with those things. If it was not that big a deal, we could just deficit spend to cover the difference, but we can't, because it is so much money it will eventually tank the economy, and hurt the same people the program was intended to help.

Another problem is not just about increasing taxes on the middle class; it is about getting rid of a massive tax break, and raising taxes. Currently, because we don't tax employer and employee healthcare premiums like income, there is something like 250 billion in lost revenue. So Bernie is not just raising taxes on the middle class, he is stripping them of a tax break, (which I support regardless) and bumping up their taxes. While you and I might be cool about that, that sticker stock going to be a mother****er for some people. Furthermore, economics doesn't work that cleanly; not everyone will be getting a better deal so that they will be pissed too. He is going to but a ton of extra payroll taxes on business, which will put downward pressure on things. Now for a better healthcare system, I think it is worth it. However, the same things you feel are trivial might be the exact thing that sparks a movement against it.

-To be fair, the using liberal as an ad hominem is not something you do. I should I have clearer, didn't mean to conflate stuff you post with what I get from other Bernie supporters in here.

Bruh, you are the all-time champion defender of Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and many other conventional liberals in here. Someone critiques them from the right, you jump to the defense. Someone critiques them from the left, you jump to the defense. So are you lost in the sauce when it comes to all of those folks? Are you the only one with principled positions in here? Are you the only reasonable one? No. And plenty of the shade thrown at Bernie in here is used to simultaneously attack his political vision, so let's not act as if these things are discrete.

I'm not disagreeing that there are lots of specifics to hammer out with M4A. You are a sharp and thoughtful dude who is able to identify a great deal more of these than the average informed. What I'm a little confused about is that you acknowledge M4A is the best option being discussed (we both agree on the ultimate superiority of socialized medicine) but your position seems to be so firmly against it. Instead of even saying "They should do [whatever] instead of [whatever]" to improve the policy and address some of your concerns, you continually berate it. I'm not saying you're obligated to do this, I just don't really understand that dynamic.

 

[IATT]

 

[-Red-]

Why the Obeezy action figure's hairline looking better than mine.

Life ain't fair mane

I shaved my head at 23 fam... and probably should have shaved it at 22.

Life ain't fair, indeed