OFFICIAL NFL Discussion Thread: 2015-16 Season - Congrats to the Denver Broncos and their fans! SB 5

[CP1708]

Tom Brady 6th round
Aaron Rodgers 24th
Drew Brees 2nd round
Russell Wilson 3rd round
Joe Flacco 18th
Brett Favre 2nd round
Joe Montana 3rd round
Dan Marino 26th
Rich Gannon 4th round
Tony Romo UDFA
Kurt Warner aisle 5
Steve Young supplemental draft
Andy Dalton 2nd round



Peyton, Aikman, Luck, Cam, Elway, Eli #1



All these teams trading multiple picks in multiple seasons and you can get a QB anywhere. Late first, early second, third round, undrafted even. Last year all the "hot QB's were Ryan Fitzpatrick, Cousins, Derek Carr, Tyrod Taylor...........

But let's give up 5-6-7 pieces so we can get North Dakota States Carson Wentz. That might work out if you had Shady, and D-Jax, and Maclin, and Sproles, and Ertz, but now?

So many first round QB busts, I don't even feel like listing them all, but teams keep wasting time and energy while smarter teams just sit back and build around their QB's.

Most Super Bowls
9ers, Montana, Young, Jeff Garcia, Kapernick.
Pitt, Bradshaw and Neil O Donnell, Ben (Bradshaw went #1)
Dallas, Staubach, Troy Aikman, Tony Romo (Aikman #1)
NE, Tony Eason, Drew Bledsoe, Tom Brady (Bledsoe #1)

Lot of success from these franchises over the years. Aikman and Bradshaw the only ones that won as #1's for these teams, and they were surrounded by talent. Surrounded by it. Drowning in it almost.

But hey, the Rams and Eagles are known for their great QB lineage. Clearly they see great things in Goff and Wentz and both shall flourish in the NFL.

Notice the names and usage of late first examples?

 

[CP1708]

You're arguing a different topic.

I didn't say you can't draft Rd 1. I said you don't have to trade into the top 3-5.

Ben was 11. Rodgers 24. Marino 27. Brady, Montana, Russ later etc etc.

That's the debate. You could have just as easily taken a QB at 8 and kept your picks. That's the point. Not never take one in Rd 1.

If the QB isn't going to be there at 8 then you can't

Dolphins stayed at 8 and took Tannehill, you telling me you wouldn't have rather traded up for Luck?

If you say no then this convo is a bunch of BS

I did not want to trade up for Luck. I did want to tank for him.

I also did not want them to draft Tannehill at 8. I wanted to wait a year for the Bray, Geno, Barkley, Logan Thomas class. Thank God I was off there.

 

[IATT]

If the QB isn't going to be there at 8 then you can't

Dolphins stayed at 8 and took Tannehill, you telling me you wouldn't have rather traded up for Luck?

exactly..

tackle needy teams in the teens, can just stay there and hope Ronnie stanley somehow falls.. or take Conklin or decker.. but I'm sure they wish they could get tunsil

 

[stillin729]

I did not want to trade up for Luck. I did want to tank for him.

I also did not want them to draft Tannehill at 8. I wanted to wait a year for the Bray, Geno, Barkley, Logan Thomas class. Thank God I was off there.

If the Eagles think Wentz is a franchise QB then they did what they needed to do, I think it was smart to space out the picks over 3 years

he clearly wasn't going to be there at 8 so it is what it is, I will review this trade in 2019

I was fine letting Bradford play the year and see what he could do but I can't fault the Eagles for wanting their next McNabb and doing what they needed to do to assure the chance

 

[amarano]

people are making it like the eagles gave up all their draft picks ala Ditka going after Ricky Williams 

none of you ever gave up more than you PROBABLY should have to get something you really wanted?

not an eagles fan but good for them 

 

[IATT]

Notice the names and usage of late first examples?

notice my first response, below.. along with my quoting and responding to very specific things you said afterwards

I was very deliberate and specific with what I was saying and responding to

 

 

Couple years old:

 

[checks grossman]

The future of tackling

 

[stillin729]

people are making it like the eagles gave up all their draft picks ala Ditka going after Ricky Williams 

none of you ever gave up more than you PROBABLY should have to get something you really wanted?

not an eagles fan but good for them 

really

they gave up 3 picks to trade up

2016 3rd round - 77th
2017 1st rounder
2018 2nd rounder

 

[illoquent aka dsk]

@CP1708 I probably should've added that I agree 1000% on your angle about the development point. Teams often don't do themselves any favors and **** that up too.

They give up all these pieces, all the energy, then follow up with 3 diff head coaches, or 6 OC's in 7 years, etc. That's not how you develop such a "prized" piece of a teams future. But it happens all the time.

Eagles go from Foles to Bradford to Wentz just like that.
Rams go Bradford to Foles to Goff
Jets go Sanchez to Geno to Fitzpatrick
Bills go Manuel to Fitzpatrick to Tyrod
Browns go Weeden to Hoyer to Manziel, McCown etc

Such an important position, yet tossed like a paper towel. Who is actually working and developing these guys? How does one expect to develop getting rag dolled like that?

You wanna know why they usually get those 3 diff head coaches and 6 OC's though? Because they didn't get it right in the first place and drafted the wrong guy. They didn't hit on the player and are left scrambling trying to find a QB whisperer to fix a mistake. Instead of owning up to the mistake and cutting their losses, they're left trying to justify an error. I agree that it's silly, but that's the nature of the business. These GM's make certain moves depending on how their job security looks. Stupid, I know.

Tom Brady is the definition of an anomaly, bro. You can't just go ahead and think you can gameplan into that. It was the perfect marriage between the two most important figures on any team. The coach and QB. Neither had any clue of this at draft time, but they go on to be arguably the most in sync duo of all time in the sport.

That's not Bill's genius, it's an act of God or fate.

 

[spacedoodoo]

RIP Prince

him and chyna in the same day 

 

[sb]

 

[illoquent aka dsk]

Since we're on the topic and to illustrate how sometimes you have to do it differently at that position, Bill Belichick has drafted 7 QB's since Brady's been his starter. Seven! That almost one every other year during their tenure.

Pretty Jimmy in the 2nd Round, two more in the 3rd, another in the 4th, one 6th, two 7th (which includes Matt Cassel). You have arguably the greatest of all time at the helm, from the developmental stage all the way through his twilight years, and you're still plucking multiple QB's in the draft. In some cases even using early round picks on 'em. And the wish is to never have to use them in a game. 

Why does he do it though? Because that position is so damn valuable and highly prioritized, you make certain moves you normally wouldn't do for any other spot on the team.

Players suddenly lose it from one day to the next, get into contract disputes, or tear their ACL in the 1st Q of the season opener. When your starting QB becomes useless, that's usually the end of your season right there. When he leaves, you better have an adequate replacement on deck or else your chance of success takes a major step back.

I don't agree with everything he does, but I respect how he attempts to prevent those scenarios from taking place, even at the cost of supplementing the team with another quality player at a different position.

 

[IATT]

where is the matt Flynn success story, in this whole nurture vs nature argument? (like it has to completely be one or the other)

7th round pick.. time to be groomed behind a starter with zero pressure other than making the roster each year.. given a chance to start and shines brightly

goes to the seahawks.. and then...

once I finish eating my lunch I am going to list every single QB either drafted by, traded for or signed by the eagles since mcnabb was taken 2nd overall in '99

 

[illoquent aka dsk]

Just found out Prince died too. **** everything else for the rest of the day, man. SMH. Bulls*** a** day already, I'm ready for tomorrow to get here.

 

[Deleted member 37754]

So we still saying Brady won those SB's?

All and only QBs win or lose games.

 

[IATT]

was going to post that Vikings fight song he did.. couldn't find it on youtube.. rest in peace to the legend

just watched purple rain the other day too.. weird guy.. but a legend

"You have to purify yourself in Lake Minnetonka"

 

[kingkoopa]

Off topic but I just heard the color rush colors leaked last week, did anyone post them, if so what page or date?

 

[IATT]

 
Off topic but I just heard the color rush colors leaked last week, did anyone post them, if so what page or date?

 

[CP1708]

@CP1708
I probably should've added that I agree 1000% on your angle about the development point. Teams often don't do themselves any favors and **** that up too.

They give up all these pieces, all the energy, then follow up with 3 diff head coaches, or 6 OC's in 7 years, etc. That's not how you develop such a "prized" piece of a teams future. But it happens all the time.

Eagles go from Foles to Bradford to Wentz just like that.

Rams go Bradford to Foles to Goff

Jets go Sanchez to Geno to Fitzpatrick

Bills go Manuel to Fitzpatrick to Tyrod

Browns go Weeden to Hoyer to Manziel, McCown etc

Such an important position, yet tossed like a paper towel. Who is actually working and developing these guys? How does one expect to develop getting rag dolled like that?

You wanna know why they usually get those 3 diff head coaches and 6 OC's though? Because they didn't get it right in the first place and drafted the wrong guy. They didn't hit on the player and are left scrambling trying to find a QB whisperer to fix a mistake. Instead of owning up to the mistake and cutting their losses, they're left trying to justify an error. I agree that it's silly, but that's the nature of the business. These GM's make certain moves depending on how their job security looks. Stupid, I know.

Tom Brady is the definition of an anomaly, bro. You can't just go ahead and think you can gameplan into that. It was the perfect marriage between the two most important figures on any team. The coach and QB. Neither had any clue of this at draft time, but they go on to be arguably the most in sync duo of all time in the sport.

That's not Bill's genius, it's an act of God or fate.

How bout a guy that comes in 6-5, 245 pounds. Age 23. You draft him in the 3rd round. Pick #88

He comes in his rookie year, couple spot starts, gains a little familiarity with one of his WR's, some exposure to the game, etc.

The next year, you give him a new head coach. That WR blows his knee out in preseason. He luckily has another stud WR to work off of, and a dominant RB behind him. He's age 24 now.

The next year, at age 25, you cut that WR he meshed well with last year, even tho the first WR is coming back from the knee. Potentially, he could have had 2 elite wide outs, and a dominant RB, as well as a decent OLine and a couple useful TE's. But, sadly, after a few rough games, he breaks his collarbone and is done for the year.

He goes 14-4 as a starter for you. Age 25, and you give up on him. Not to mention trading away one of his biggest weapons, coaching change, etc.

That second year, he went 8-2 with 27 TD's and 2 INT's. He is of course, Nick Foles.

So, when you say "they didn't hit on the player" How exactly is that? I'm not saying that Nick Foles is the next Brady, or anything stupid like that. But the Eagles had him, early in his career, with D-Jax, Maclin, Shady and now they have NONE of those players. They added Sproles, had Ertz, drafted Lane Johnson, keep the OLine built and throw some money on defense, that's a full on commitment to a QB, instead they cut bait for a retread #1 pick and a backup #5 pick? :x

At what point does an org say, stop the madness? Enough screwing around, build around a coach/GM/QB, whoever, and KEEP building. They had all those pieces, plenty of time left in their careers, and instead they pull the plug and they're all gone. That's developing a QB?

They gonna go all in for Wentz, and start this whole process over again, and 3 years from now when they have holes on their line, or lack weapons, or a weak defense, whatever the case may be, they gonna cut him too, and start over yet again? :x


And I know their pain all too well. My ludicrously stupid head coach wanted to draft a QB at 8 in 2012, and then another one at 19 in 2014. TWO YEARS he wanted to cut bait on a QB that HE held back.

It goes to what I been askin for a while now. Who is teaching these QB's? Draft and develop should mean Draft, AND develop. Not draft and cut bait 2-3 years later. Oh, he turned 26, we gotta start lookin for a new one. I get the NFL is a biz, and these are their jobs, but it seems pretty obvious the interest isn't in long term planning but moreso cover their own *** and cut bait anyone they can to save their own skin. That's horrible business.

QB's don't draft their teammates. They don't cut their best WR's. They don't let their RB's walk in Free Agency. They get thrown out there like everybody else. Teams that are smart, get their guy, no matter how or where (Draft early, draft late, FA, trade, etc) and stick with him thru thick and thin.

The old adage, "The backup quarterback is the most popular guy in town"

 

[IATT]

eagles QBs last 20 years (with mcnabb there for 11 seasons)

draft:

bobby hoying (1996)

koy detmer drafted in 7th (1997)

mcnabb drafted 2nd overall (1999)

aj feeley drafted in the 5th (2001)

andy hall drafted in the 6th (2004)

kevin kolb drafted in the 2nd (2007)

mike kafka drafted in the 4th (2010)

nick foles drafted in the 3rd (2012)

matt barkley drafted in the 4th (2013)

QBs who have started games that were acquired either through free agency or trade:

ty detmer

Rodney peete

doug pederson

mike mcmahon

jeff garcia

Michael vick

vince young

mark sanchez

sam bradford

 

[macbk]

Random but I could use some help.

Can anyone hook it up with a link where it will show last seasons stats of TE targets/completions, and where the Jets ranked among the rest of the NFL in that category? For the life of me I can't find those breakdowns anywhere. I asked in the Jets thread but my homies over there haven't gotten back yet .

 

[amarano]

Random but I could use some help.

Can anyone hook it up with a link where it will show last seasons stats of TE targets/completions, and where the Jets ranked among the rest of the NFL in that category? For the life of me I can't find those breakdowns anywhere. I asked in the Jets thread but my homies over there haven't gotten back yet

.

not sure but this made me realize i cant even name the TE or any on the Jets 

Amaro?

 

[dmxfury]

Whoa that's just throwing dart after dart and just praying down thing hits a bullseye

 

[IATT]

 Teams that are smart, get their guy, no matter how or where (Draft early, draft late, FA, trade, etc) and stick with him thru thick and thin.

this is all you needed to say.. but it isn't exactly that simple

I could want Andrew luck, but unless I had the number 1 pick that year.. what was the likelihood of me getting him?

or how about peyton when he came out?

Elway..

or how about steve young

 

[macbk]

Random but I could use some help.


Can anyone hook it up with a link where it will show last seasons stats of TE targets/completions, and where the Jets ranked among the rest of the NFL in that category? For the life of me I can't find those breakdowns anywhere. I asked in the Jets thread but my homies over there haven't gotten back yet .

not sure but this made me realize i cant even name the TE or any on the Jets 

Amaro?

Last season we had Cumberland and Kellen Davis because Amaro and Sudfeld were hurt. Barely threw to them both due to them sucking and Gailey doesn't use TE's in his offense.

But I just need the stats for a write up I'm doing.

Edit: Actually, I think I can just add it up based off a stats list I just found. All good over here.