NT, Do you agree/believe in the Death Penalty?

[gello 201]

Originally Posted by duke4005

Originally Posted by Gello 201

Originally Posted by duke4005

Originally Posted by Gello 201

Im sorry but i have to cut you off on a few things. If person X is put to death, it statistically does not stop person y, and z from committing the same crime. There is no water tight confession, the burden of proof in criminal court is 99.9% guilty. The 'mentally challenged' we are going back and forth about are to be removed from society permanently. They can be studied to hopefully find major or even minor breakthroughs to prevent future crimes. It is also cost effective to keep them locked up forever, as opposed to putting them to death. On a side note, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion.

But does it stop person X from getting out on a technicality and doing it again? From spending 12 years in prison and getting out on a "good behavior" stint and going back into it? Yes. So then if person Y and Z do the same thing, strap them down and get it over with. And yes, if you have a person, let's say McVeigh, who admits he did it, waves appeals, and let's the trial go the way it goes naturally, that to me is water-tight. I still don't see why it is cost-effective to keep them locked up forever. I believe the figures were $44,000 a year to keep them locked up, and $1 million for the death penalty. In 25 years that is equal. Most are on death row for half that (except in Texas), so in reality it does cost more. The secret is to stream-line the process. If there is any possible doubt (if the person did not outright confess, have the body with them/lead authorities to it, videotape of the murder and knowledge of why it occured), then the death penalty is not an option. Eye-witness accounts are not enough to warrant it, unless corroborated by the perpetrator. And yes, I am enjoying this also. Ususally I am stuck in Shoe Reviews or S&T, so this is good.

People wave their rights, give up on appeals all the time. People have admitted to crimes they have never committed, (i.e police station's 'clearingthe books'). Videotapes can and have been altered, hence the 99.9%burden of proof. It's roughly $20-$40 a day to keep someone in prison. That accountsfor meals, prison officers, etc... Lawyers can collect upwards of $100,000 just on the murder trial, which lasts years and years. Judges, D.A.'s, assistantD.A's, bailiffs, an entire office of legal assistants, sheriff's officers are all involved along the way with each trial. It's dough, and i forgetthe figure, but almost all DP's are appealed, which just repeats the process at a higher cost more than likely. General deterrence doesnt mean repeatoffender. And studies show, that if person X is killed via death penalty, it does not stop person Y and Z from committing the same crime. You say IF Y and Zcommit the same crime, and are executed they cant commit crimes again. Well its because X was killed prior and the same crime is still carried out by Y and Z,thus not deterring. As far as repeat offender/recidivism is concerned, if the suspect X is proven to the highest extent possible that he/she did the crime,then there should be no chance of the person getting out of prison (case dependant obviously). i know 'life' in prison terms can be 25-40 yearsroughly. Punishment as defined by our government is removal of one from society and stripping of certain rights. Death is added/not added as a penalty by eachcountry. I feel, and again its my opinion, that its 2009.....Putting people to death isnt any man's decision. Same with war; it determines who is left, notwho is right. I will say that if someone really close to me was murdered, I have no idea how i would react. This me talking subjectively/objectively (alwaysmix those two up, but whichever one means from outside in)

 

[prurientsole]

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

For any and all people who are saying it is too expensive to keep people in jail i ask this

How much are their lives worth to you?

now that you have that number ask yourself this

How much is your life worth?

because once you put a number on any mans life there is no telling where and when to draw the line.

There's a difference: I didn't kill anyone, much less willfully and/or gleefully.

With respect to rapists, murderers, and the like, their lives mean absolutely nothing to me. Not only are they not productive members of society, butthey've harmed society by breaking one of its core tenets.

 

[j burner]

Originally Posted by Dathbgboy

J Burner u seem to have it all mapped out and ur way is flawless huh? I don't have a bleedin heart so u can cut that right now. U all willie nillie for the death penalyty but prolly the same FOOL complainin about the state of the economy.

And lets be technical, if the executioner kills a convicted (and lets not forget that some are wrongfully convicted and executed) morally, what does that make the executioner? Exactly, so don't run aeound like ure way is just when its more flawed than those who are against cap punishment who u keep tryna #%@+ on

1. The death penalty is in no way shape or form the cause of the current state of the economy. Slap yourself for that one.

2. If that question made sense, I could answer it. If an executioner kills a convicted morally, what does that make the executioner? What? It makes him anexecutioner....Are you attempting to argue that taking the life of murderer as punishment is the same as taking the life of an innocent person for fun?

 

[aka king arthur]

Originally Posted by PrurientSole

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

For any and all people who are saying it is too expensive to keep people in jail i ask this

How much are their lives worth to you?

now that you have that number ask yourself this

How much is your life worth?

because once you put a number on any mans life there is no telling where and when to draw the line.

There's a difference: I didn't kill anyone, much less willfully and/or gleefully.

With respect to rapists, murderers, and the like, their lives mean absolutely nothing to me. Not only are they not productive members of society, but they've harmed society by breaking one of its core tenets.

so they are less than human?

because to me the human life has no price

and if you try to say that this person has done this and this so they are worth this

you are saying they are less than human. Or am i wrong?

have you ever done anything wrong? have you every harmed anyone?

lets say if you murder someone you are worth 100 dollars

but if you steal you are wroth 500 dollars.

give me a break man a life is a life

 

[duke4005]

"Same with war; it determines who is left, not who is right."

I like this, so I may use it. I hate using dollar numbers, because every media outlet reports differently for their own angle, but I could swear I read a fewyears back on this same argument it was upwards of $30-40K a year to house a criminal (that may have been death row), accounting for the salaries of the guardsand the utilities and supplies (food, clothes, etc.) needed to make life "bearable". And I guess you are right; it is not a deterrent as far asstopping others, but it does stop that one. I guess maybe living in Texas has skewed my view, or shaped my values, but I still can NOT equate an executioner ondeath row with a cold-blooded rapist/killer like the poster a couple above. Again, it goes back to innocent victim/convicted murderer. The executioner is not acold-blooded killer looking for victims. They are meeting out justice passed down hopefully from courts doing God's will. And don't say Godwouldn't want these psychopath's (sociopath's) killed. None of us knows what He would want, but I will guarantee He does not want more of Hisinnocent people being killed by evil.

 

[aka king arthur]

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^dude, please look up the definition of sociopath. Please. NVM, here it is:

Sociopath: Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.


In other words, a sociopath is someone who does not adhere to the norms of society. If the norm in society is not to kill people, then someone who kills people is a sociopath. If the norm in society is not to rape women, and someone likes to rape women, they are a sociopath, etc....

that is a very broad definition

I would guess that there are people you are friends with or know that fit into that category

and that still doesnt mean that a decent guy for no reason at all could kill someone for no reason.

fam you are painting with a broad brush there is no way the ALL violent criminals are sociopaths

 

[cadillacflow]

I would say I'm more for it than against it, but at the same time... I wonder how many TRULY innocent people have been killed because of the death penalty.

If it is indisputable, 100%, he/she admitted it guilty, then yes. If it's just reasonable doubt guilty, no.

 

[j burner]

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has thesame value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuablethan the life of the children they victimized.

 

[j burner]

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^dude, please look up the definition of sociopath. Please. NVM, here it is:

Sociopath: Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.


In other words, a sociopath is someone who does not adhere to the norms of society. If the norm in society is not to kill people, then someone who kills people is a sociopath. If the norm in society is not to rape women, and someone likes to rape women, they are a sociopath, etc....

that is a very broad definition

I would guess that there are people you are friends with or know that fit into that category

and that still doesnt mean that a decent guy for no reason at all could kill someone for no reason.

fam you are painting with a broad brush there is no way the ALL violent criminals are sociopaths

Your skull is thicker than the wall of an underground fallout shelter. I don't know how else to explain this to you. You can't say "he's aviolent criminal, but not a sociopath." You can be a sociopath and not a violent criminal, but it is BY DEFINITION IMPOSSIBLE to be a violent criminaland NOT be a sociopath. This is not my opinion, it is fact.

 

[aka king arthur]

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has the same value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuable than the life of the children they victimized.

If they needed my help and i could help them i would. real talk

life if they were shot or something i would help them

would i just stop and shake their hand and be their friend no

please do not confuse helping a person in dire straits as condoning their actions

again you keep creating straw men arguments fam

 

[lamarownsem]

Life in prison is much worse than the death penalty.

Too many innocent people get put on death row.

Taking lives in any way, shape, or form is wrong.

Death penalty is too expensive.

It's not fair to the criminal's family for their loved one to be killed by the government. Frankly, a government shouldn't be killing people in thefirst place.

The death penalty doesn't stop murderers from murdering or rapists from raping, so what's the point?

 

[eleet1]

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has the same value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuable than the life of the children they victimized.

If they needed my help and i could help them i would. real talk

again you keep creating straw men arguments fam

So if somebody brutaly murdered your family. Did time in prison, got out on good behavior or whatever, and then looked you up and apologized to you and askedif he could stay with you for awhile till he can get his life back together. You would be ok with that? Would you really help him?

 

[dathbgboy]

u hopeless brah, we all sociopaths accordin to that definition. We all do +!@# that is for our own benefit that is abnormal. Its against social norms tofap but damn near every male does it.

There are those that are mentall disturbed and should be given medical treatment, make em a vegetable but don't kill em.

What about the ppl who kill b/c their victim killed someone they love? Does that constitute grounds for the death penalty?

What about accidental murders? Is the killer mentally disturbed and should be put out of their misery?

Before u make an argument, try goin over the rebuttles in ur head first. Don't be like a horse w/ the flaps on its eyes. U can reply w/ whatever u want butI'm not fittin to argue over the internet

 

[j burner]

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has the same value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuable than the life of the children they victimized.

If they needed my help and i could help them i would. real talk

again you keep creating straw men arguments fam

If thats your stance, there's no point in continuing. Youknow if I dropped Charles Manson off at your house today and said "here ya go, he needs your help" you wouldn't be talking so reckless.

 

[welcometothetonezone]

Originally Posted by LamarOwnsem

Life in prison is much worse than the death penalty.

Too many innocent people get put on death row.

Taking lives in any way, shape, or form is wrong.

Death penalty is too expensive.

It's not fair to the criminal's family for their loved one to be killed by the government. Frankly, a government shouldn't be killing people in the first place.

The death penalty doesn't stop murderers from murdering or rapists from raping, so what's the point?

QFT.

I never understood the rationale for putting a prisoner to death while thinking abortion is immoral...but that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

[aka king arthur]

eleet1 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has the same value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuable than the life of the children they victimized.

If they needed my help and i could help them i would. real talk

again you keep creating straw men arguments fam

So if somebody brutaly murdered your family. Did time in prison, got out on good behavior or whatever, and then looked you up and apologized to you and asked if he could stay with you for awhile till he can get his life back together. You would be ok with that? Would you really help him?
if he apologized sincerely for his actions

paid his debt to society

i would really help him yes (this is not unheard of victims families sometimes become friendly with the person who attacked a love one) (if you need me to iwill find an example)

but i would not be mad at someone else who didnt.

I am who I am

 

[eleet1]

You would actually be surprised at how many people like it in prison. So much that when they get out they will do something just so that they could be lockedup again. This is mostly for those who do long periods of time where when they get out the world is so different that they cant make it and would rather goback the the routine life of prison.

Life in prison isnt so bad for everyone. In the west prison gangs run the outside drug/gang life.

 

[eleet1]

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

eleet1 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has the same value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuable than the life of the children they victimized.

If they needed my help and i could help them i would. real talk

again you keep creating straw men arguments fam

So if somebody brutaly murdered your family. Did time in prison, got out on good behavior or whatever, and then looked you up and apologized to you and asked if he could stay with you for awhile till he can get his life back together. You would be ok with that? Would you really help him?

if he apologized sincerely for his actions

paid his debt to society

i would really help him yes (this is not unheard of victims families sometimes become friendly with the person who attacked a love one) (if you need me to i will find an example)

but i would not be mad at someone else who didnt.

I am who I am




If that is truely a sincere statement then i give you props. That you would have that much self restraint and compassion for a person cool. But i know that iwould not be able to do that.

*Gah double post. I thought someone posted after me....

 

[aka king arthur]

Originally Posted by eleet1

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

eleet1 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by AKA King Arthur

Originally Posted by J Burner

^^^So you would be happy to take a murderer and child molestor into your home and care for them? I mean, a life is a life, and everybody's life has the same value, no matter what they've done to harm others. Thats your stance right? Of course the life of a child muderer/molestor/rapist is less valuable than the life of the children they victimized.

If they needed my help and i could help them i would. real talk

again you keep creating straw men arguments fam

So if somebody brutaly murdered your family. Did time in prison, got out on good behavior or whatever, and then looked you up and apologized to you and asked if he could stay with you for awhile till he can get his life back together. You would be ok with that? Would you really help him?

if he apologized sincerely for his actions

paid his debt to society

i would really help him yes (this is not unheard of victims families sometimes become friendly with the person who attacked a love one) (if you need me to i will find an example)

but i would not be mad at someone else who didnt.

I am who I am

If that is truely a sincere statement then i give you props. That you would have that much self restraint and compassion for a person cool. But i know that i would not be able to do that.

*Gah double post. I thought someone posted after me....
and there is nothing wrong with that

 

[j burner]

Originally Posted by eleet1

You would actually be surprised at how many people like it in prison. So much that when they get out they will do something just so that they could be locked up again. This is mostly for those who do long periods of time where when they get out the world is so different that they cant make it and would rather go back the the routine life of prison.

Life in prison isnt so bad for everyone. In the west prison gangs run the outside drug/gang life.

Apparantly this concept is unfathomable for some people here...

 

[iiceman83]

J Burner forget it man...some ppl will try an argue anything, even out of context to the argument and subject matter.

 

[duke4005]

Originally Posted by welcometothetonezone

Originally Posted by LamarOwnsem

Life in prison is much worse than the death penalty.

Too many innocent people get put on death row.

Taking lives in any way, shape, or form is wrong.

Death penalty is too expensive.

It's not fair to the criminal's family for their loved one to be killed by the government. Frankly, a government shouldn't be killing people in the first place.

The death penalty doesn't stop murderers from murdering or rapists from raping, so what's the point?

QFT.

I never understood the rationale for putting a prisoner to death while thinking abortion is immoral...but that's a whole 'nother topic.

This is a response to both of you:

1. If this is true, how come they all appeal right up until the needle? All the way to the gurney? Because THEY DO NOT WANT TO DIE. Not because they areinnocent, because they are scared of where they are headed.

2. Proof. There are some, and most times they are found out through appeals.

3. So if someone has you at gunpoint, wife and kids in the room, knowing they are next, you smile and say, "I love you man. Can't we get pastthis?" No you kill that fool.

4. Death penalty is not expensive, if performed properly.

5. "It's not fair to the criminal's family for their loved one to be killed by the government. Frankly, a government shouldn't be killingpeople in the first place." Was it fair for the victim's family to lose their loved one? Where was the perp's family when he was getting into thisdirt? Chances are, they let this person run crazy for years and then all of a sudden want to beg for this "good person's" life. Sorry.

6. The death penalty stops THOSE murderers or rapists from doing it again. To quote NWA, One less you got to worry about.

And I agree with the death penalty while thinking abortion is immoral, wrong, and a sin. Abortion is still the killing of innocents, and abortion doctorsshould be right at the top of my death row list. There is no correllation between the two. Nice reach. Sorry, personal rant. But that is what we do here.

 

[eleet1]

Also people who mess with kids (kill, rape, molest, etc..) usually dont have it that bad in prison. They are usually separated from general population fortheir own safety. So they are either put with others with the same crime or isolation. So they get there 3 meals a day and dont have to worry about anyonemessing with them.

 

[joseph camel jr]

The death penalty is absolutely useless as a criminal deterrent. Which is its sole purpose.

So no, I don't believe in it. Not to mention I have a hard time approving the killing of another man.

The $$ argument is valid but it sounds incredibly inhumane to me. We should keep it up because killing someone saves us money? How about a reform in drug lawor any number of other measures that would cut the $$ we spend on prisons drastically rather than continuing with a medieval practice that saves us pocketchange?

 

[yungswagga]

so wat your saying is a serial killer shouldnt get the death penalty?? *%+