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what in the world is this????
Easy post-ups, BBQ chicken
NCAA Will Allow Trans Athletes: Lia Thomas Becomes 1st NCAA Transgender Champion
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Imagine thinking this is ok and calling anyone ANYTHING that doesn't view this as being OK.
kdawg
Staff member
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Playing in a women’s league is one thing but that looks like middle school?
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Gabrielle Ludwig 50+ y/o transgender who had some college eligibility left
Community college. Ludwig is 6’6
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Fair enough.Lia Thomas didn’t break any records at NCAA championships
In the event lia Thomas won, Katie ledecky holds the record
Katie Douglass, who swam at that meet, broke multiple records.. other records were also broken, none by lia Thomas
2022 Women's NCAA Championships: Results & Records Summary
A full recap of the top finishers and records broken during the 2022 Women's NCAA Championships, which UVA won in decisive fashion.swimswam.com
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And to think, there’s people who support that and think it’s okay 
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The extremes of both sides are annoying.
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This is pretty much where I'm at on this topic.
On one hand I can acknowledge the "nobody cares about women's sports anyway" argument is a really bad one and that there's a certain degree of mental gymnastics going on to justify the acceptance of M-to-F transgendered individuals participating in women's sports.
On the other hand I can acknowledge that there are DEFINITELY opportunists that actually don't care about women's sports and are using these individuals as pawns to advance a larger political agenda that is fueled by intolerance/bigotry and is harmful to society overall.
I'll continue to sit this one out.
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Who is actually advocating for any of this on NT?
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I've been rethinking about the Ben Shapiro and Neil D Tyson discussion about this, specifically, NDT's question about the logic of separating sports along male/female lines.
If you have to force someone like Caster Semenya to take drugs to lower her hormone levels in order to fit in the female T&F category, even though she never underwent any sort of transition (meaning her advantage is natural), does it not say that we need to rethink how we approach sport categories?
The other thing that doesn't sit well with me is how those who support the current exclusionary practices of sporting regulatory bodies espouse (intentionally or not) the underlying idea that women's sports can't evolve past a certain point from an intensity perspective (again, my argument is centered around the case of Semenya). Nobody cares that someone like LeBron exists; nobody has a problem with male biological freaks; we accept and welcome the fact that their presence increases the level of competition.
My guess as to why the existence of biological freaks is an issue for women's sports is that it would challenge the assumptions that led to the categorization of sports along those lines:
Gender Incommensurability In Sports - JSTOR Daily
Cultural systems have historically defined sex segregation. The imperfect science has led to failures in policing gender in sports.daily.jstor.org
https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-...021503989/women-runners-testosterone-olympics
Rethinking about how we've categorized sports is the only productive way to even begin addressing the issue of transitioned/transitioning athletes.
I don't see how the existence of an infinitesimally small amount of intersex people means you have to totally destroy the women category.
The female category is a protected category, and it's protected to account for SEX differences.
"Freaks" are totally acceptable in women's sports, as long as they aren't "freaks" as it relates to male-female sex differences.
as protection from those advantages are the entire purpose of the category.
there is a reason the term "hard cases make bad law" exists;
Caster Semenya has undescended testes giving her typically male physiological advantages
is obviously something that requires scrutiny and regulation for her to compete in the female category.
and I think it can be regulated just fine without destroying the female category.
I think NDT idea about hormone levels maybe being the basis of a new category, or the need to rework the category to be totally idiotic.
male-female works totally fine, and for the tiny amount of exceptions you can create a council to judge those on a case by case basis.
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not everything needs to be in a "rights" based framework.
it's okay for some exceptional individuals to be judge on a case by case basis.
I feel bad for Caster Semenya, and other trans atheltes.
but I see no reason to destroy the female category to account for tiny variations in human population.
Male - Female sex division works totally in fine in 99.9% of circumstances.
it's okay for some exceptional individuals to be judge on a case by case basis.
I feel bad for Caster Semenya, and other trans atheltes.
but I see no reason to destroy the female category to account for tiny variations in human population.
Male - Female sex division works totally in fine in 99.9% of circumstances.
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Having swam and run track, for my country and a decent enough level when I was in school
i don’t get how we got this far given how overly regulated things are
i completely get the complications that are presented from athletes like caster semenya and a couple others who were prohibited from participating in the last olympics
but for me, I’m looking at the simple.. you can’t take certain medications for legit health problems.. hell you can’t wear certain materials and/or too much of the now permitted.. hell even in the act of the sport itself, there is such a thing as reacting too quickly (see what happened with Devon allen at the recent world championship)
i don’t get how we got this far given how overly regulated things are
i completely get the complications that are presented from athletes like caster semenya and a couple others who were prohibited from participating in the last olympics
but for me, I’m looking at the simple.. you can’t take certain medications for legit health problems.. hell you can’t wear certain materials and/or too much of the now permitted.. hell even in the act of the sport itself, there is such a thing as reacting too quickly (see what happened with Devon allen at the recent world championship)
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The assumption that women will always perform worse than men is baked in the binary model of sports categorization. So when someone like Semenya appears, we have to force her (and people like her) to artificially reduce their natural abilities for the sake of fairness.
Sounds like placing a glass ceiling on women's sports to me, especially when it's those tiny variations that make exceptional athletes that drive people towards men's sports. Nobody has thought about banning Usain Bolt because he doesn't fit the physical profile of a high performing sprinter.
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Make them compete with their gender they are born with, simple.
RustyShackleford
Supporter
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This doesn't make sense to me
You call Tyson's idea about hormone levels idiotic, but the rule disqualifying Semenya from competing is based on elevated testosterone levels
So you think the criteria excluding Semenya is idiotic as well?
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the ceiling is biology.
Unless we evolve as a species in the next 100 years, the advantages men have in the most popular sports are going to remain.
What happens to Caster Semenya is going to have zero impact on this.
Obviously not, we don't segregate in sports unless the trait all things being equal is DECISIVE.
None of Usain bolt physical traits are decisive in terms of winning and losing.
We don't segregate Usian Bolt's height or limb length because those traits are not decisive.
We do segregate weight classes in combat sports because all things being equal they are decisive.
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to be clear I think it's idiotic because, it's a whole lot of extra work that would result in basically the same thing. M-F being seperated.
and trans and intersex athletes being mostly ghettoized. it's not really any more inclusive. and given the variability of t levels over time,
it's way more hassle and doesn't even account for the advantages of a masculinizing puberty.
also T levels alone are not decisive to the outcomes generally once you reach the elite levels.
so you are segregating for something that won't really matter to the outcome in 99.9% of circumstances.
so hormonal classes just seems dumb.
also to be clear. I don't know what the right thing to do in the Caster Semenya circumstances.
Im not even sure I agree with the T suppression thing.
Her case seems genuinely pretty difficult. Seems like no matter what you do you split the baby.
Im just saying her case obviously requires scrutiny and regulation with sex based classes.
but I don't know what the regulation should be.
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Not that simple.. if someone born female starts taking hormones to transition, they have a clear advantage over those born female who aren’t
kdawg
Staff member
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Surely that would just come under standard drug screening for cheating?
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Does currently
Hence why I said what I said above.. given how strict they are with some many aspects, I don’t know how lia Thomas and others have been permitted to compete
For example, the swimsuit lia Thomas wore at that championships isn’t allowed to be worn by those competing at the male championships
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"One sorority member walked down the hall to take a shower, wearing only a towel. She felt an unsettling presence, turned, and saw Mr. Smith watching her silently,” the lawsuit alleges."
"Smith has spent much time at the sorority house, however, including for a slumber party she allegedly did not leave until two hours after promised. The next morning, Smith became “sexually aroused” while watching other pledges change their clothes, the lawsuit alleges."
apnews.com
"Smith has spent much time at the sorority house, however, including for a slumber party she allegedly did not leave until two hours after promised. The next morning, Smith became “sexually aroused” while watching other pledges change their clothes, the lawsuit alleges."
Suit contests University of Wyoming trans woman in sorority
The nationwide battle over the places where transgender people may belong has flared at the University of Wyoming. A lawsuit filed by seven Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority members challenges the induction of a transgender woman into their local chapter in Laramie. The lawsuit filed in U.S. District...
apnews.com
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Male powerlifter enters women’s event, breaks record
Avi Silverberg, the head coach for Team Canada Powerlifting for more than 10 years entered Saturday’s Heroes Classic tournament in Lethbridge, Alberta, after identifying as a female.
www.google.com
Video shared by athlete activist group the Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS) shows him walking up to the platform still fully bearded and wearing a regular men’s singlet.
He then casually bench-pressed nearly 370 pounds — beating the current Alberta women’s record by almost 100 pounds.
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yeah the differences between make and female are taught in anatomy 101
like day one stuff.
like day one stuff.
kdawg
Staff member
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Just shows that some people have no problem with ignoring facts to justify their personal or political beliefs.
It definitely goes both ways but this was a particularly egregious example by someone who should know better.
This fact is part of the whole argument about someone transitioning after going through male puberty - they’re left with a clearly different bone structure. There’s some debate around whether the larger muscles persist - but there is no debate about the skeleton.
