NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[pmatic]

Steve Smith and Bonzi Wells gave Kobe trouble back then. Smith would post up and shoot over him and Wells would just back him down and power the ball through.

 

[dt43]

Wait, what is the point of this "if you switch Kobe with ____" argument again?

 

[dt43]

Wait, what is the point of this "if you switch Kobe with ____" argument again?

 

[darthska]

^ For me, it was to entertain the discussion that Shaq was the irreplaceable star of that squad, not Kobe. In the opinion of some, Kobe was replaceable, and there's the beginning of this whole discussion.

 

[darthska]

^ For me, it was to entertain the discussion that Shaq was the irreplaceable star of that squad, not Kobe. In the opinion of some, Kobe was replaceable, and there's the beginning of this whole discussion.

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by DT43

Wait, what is the point of this "if you switch Kobe with ____" argument again?

i said i would take duncan over kobe (and rated him higher all-time)


and then said it was easier to replace kobe on 3 out of 5 championships than it would be to replace duncan on his 4

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by DT43

Wait, what is the point of this "if you switch Kobe with ____" argument again?

i said i would take duncan over kobe (and rated him higher all-time)


and then said it was easier to replace kobe on 3 out of 5 championships than it would be to replace duncan on his 4

 

[JD617]

One thing about Stockton, though, that I just saw on bball-reference and thought was a typo, is that he missed 54 games out of 1004.. he played sixteen FULL 82 game seasons (including 5 straight, and 7 straight, then ended with 4 straight)

that's unheard of in today's game and should be acknowledged.

You're forgetting '99 was a lockout year. He only missed 22 games total. He played the maximum amount of games in 17 out of 19 seasons.

And led the league in assist % in 15 out of 19 seasons. Made it to the playoffs all 19 years. Had a PER over 20 at age 40. Only player in history to ever do that.

Stockton had the Groundhog Day of NBA careers.

 

[JD617]

One thing about Stockton, though, that I just saw on bball-reference and thought was a typo, is that he missed 54 games out of 1004.. he played sixteen FULL 82 game seasons (including 5 straight, and 7 straight, then ended with 4 straight)

that's unheard of in today's game and should be acknowledged.

You're forgetting '99 was a lockout year. He only missed 22 games total. He played the maximum amount of games in 17 out of 19 seasons.

And led the league in assist % in 15 out of 19 seasons. Made it to the playoffs all 19 years. Had a PER over 20 at age 40. Only player in history to ever do that.

Stockton had the Groundhog Day of NBA careers.

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by JD617


Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.

He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were a turning point in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.

Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.

Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.

Awesome post.

PP is one of the most underrated players of this era. I never understood why so many people seem to overlook dude when it comes to discussing all-time greats.

Yes, all-time great.

When it's all said and done, he'll go down as one of the all-time greatest Celtic players to ever lace 'em up. And we all know that Boston's history is deep. So if he is considered an all-time great Celtic, he's considered an all-time great for his era, no?

 

[shuges]

Originally Posted by JD617


Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.

He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were a turning point in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.

Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.

Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.

Awesome post.

PP is one of the most underrated players of this era. I never understood why so many people seem to overlook dude when it comes to discussing all-time greats.

Yes, all-time great.

When it's all said and done, he'll go down as one of the all-time greatest Celtic players to ever lace 'em up. And we all know that Boston's history is deep. So if he is considered an all-time great Celtic, he's considered an all-time great for his era, no?

 

[dman14]

gary payton didnt miss much games either and he wasnt even a strong guy. heard he didnt even really mess with weights. i think some of the missed games were due to suspension too, lol. 82,81,82,82,82,81,82,82,50(lockout),82,79,82,52+28(mil),82,77,81,68. they dont make them like they use to with guys like stockton, malone, and gp.

 

[dman14]

gary payton didnt miss much games either and he wasnt even a strong guy. heard he didnt even really mess with weights. i think some of the missed games were due to suspension too, lol. 82,81,82,82,82,81,82,82,50(lockout),82,79,82,52+28(mil),82,77,81,68. they dont make them like they use to with guys like stockton, malone, and gp.

 

[atransta]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

admittedly kobe's defense is better than all of those all-star SGs, but after thinking about it..


which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?


the kings started doug christie as their SG

the spurs started bruce bowen

the blazers started steve smith

He had to guard AI

 

[atransta]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

admittedly kobe's defense is better than all of those all-star SGs, but after thinking about it..


which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?


the kings started doug christie as their SG

the spurs started bruce bowen

the blazers started steve smith

He had to guard AI

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by DMan14

gary payton didnt miss much games either and he wasnt even a strong guy. heard he didnt even really mess with weights. i think some of the missed games were due to suspension too, lol. 82,81,82,82,82,81,82,82,50(lockout),82,79,82,52+28(mil),82,77,81,68. they dont make them like they use to with guys like stockton, malone, and gp.

GP's an interesting case, because he wasn't required to score as much until Kemp left, and then he bumped his average up a few points. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't stand Payton's offensive game. He'd just back down a defender until there was hardly any time on the shot clock, so it left it either to him to make a shot (often a turnaround or up and under) or go to exactly one option. The Sonics had a really stagnant offense, from what I remember. It was really annoying.

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by atransta

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

admittedly kobe's defense is better than all of those all-star SGs, but after thinking about it..


which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?


the kings started doug christie as their SG

the spurs started bruce bowen

the blazers started steve smith

He had to guard AI

76ers barely beat the raptors and bucks (vince and ray allen)..


do you think the 76ers would have been able to beat the lakers with vince or ray allen in kobe's place?

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by DMan14

gary payton didnt miss much games either and he wasnt even a strong guy. heard he didnt even really mess with weights. i think some of the missed games were due to suspension too, lol. 82,81,82,82,82,81,82,82,50(lockout),82,79,82,52+28(mil),82,77,81,68. they dont make them like they use to with guys like stockton, malone, and gp.

GP's an interesting case, because he wasn't required to score as much until Kemp left, and then he bumped his average up a few points. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't stand Payton's offensive game. He'd just back down a defender until there was hardly any time on the shot clock, so it left it either to him to make a shot (often a turnaround or up and under) or go to exactly one option. The Sonics had a really stagnant offense, from what I remember. It was really annoying.

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by atransta

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

admittedly kobe's defense is better than all of those all-star SGs, but after thinking about it..


which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?


the kings started doug christie as their SG

the spurs started bruce bowen

the blazers started steve smith

He had to guard AI

76ers barely beat the raptors and bucks (vince and ray allen)..


do you think the 76ers would have been able to beat the lakers with vince or ray allen in kobe's place?

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by CP1708

To be honest with ya'll, I still have Gary Payton ahead of Jason Kidd any day. 

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.  Kidd did rebound better than GP, but a lock down defender like that, at the point of my defense? 

  Gimme that each and every time without question. 

This. I've wanted to hit on this subject when it came to PG's because I will always feel that GP hasn't gotten enough credit for how good he actually was by fans today.

Payton's loud mouth seems to overshadow his amazing skill set. He had the best post game of any PG that I truly remember watching in the mid to late nineties and even from what you see today. His defense was one thing, and one thing that we should all agree on, but like dmbrhs said, he had the ability to re-tool his game depending on the talent that surrounded him. It may have been boring to watch, but when Payton had the ball on the post with an intention to score, he was extremely effective and it was debilitating to the opposition.

    

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by CP1708

To be honest with ya'll, I still have Gary Payton ahead of Jason Kidd any day. 

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.  Kidd did rebound better than GP, but a lock down defender like that, at the point of my defense? 

  Gimme that each and every time without question. 

This. I've wanted to hit on this subject when it came to PG's because I will always feel that GP hasn't gotten enough credit for how good he actually was by fans today.

Payton's loud mouth seems to overshadow his amazing skill set. He had the best post game of any PG that I truly remember watching in the mid to late nineties and even from what you see today. His defense was one thing, and one thing that we should all agree on, but like dmbrhs said, he had the ability to re-tool his game depending on the talent that surrounded him. It may have been boring to watch, but when Payton had the ball on the post with an intention to score, he was extremely effective and it was debilitating to the opposition.

    

 

[essential1]

None of those guys could replace Kobe.. It's pure conjecture... You can't make the comparison because the comparison just doesn't exist.. You could say A is better than B.. Fine.. But you can't say that person is better because he couldn't have been replaced as easily as the other guy.... The Lakers were a perfect storm.. Shaq brought alot as did Kobe.. They were 2-5 USAGE % of each other the entire 3 year title run.. For reference the classic #1-2 of MJ & Scottie was over 10% every year but the 1st title at 7%...Kobe had everything that Shaq needed... And Shaq had everything Kobe needed in those 3 years.....

But to say a guy who averaged 21 then 29 then 26 in 3 straight playoffs.. 22 then 28 then 25 in the regular season those years could be replaced by any STAR SG is conjecture and just stating a what-if that tries to discount the guys legacy...

The second playoff run... Shaq averaged 1 point more than Kobe.. 1...
The third playoff run.. Shaq averaged 1.9 points more than Kobe... 1.9...

And that's with Shaq getting to the line 50-170 times more than Kobe during the entire playoffs each year.

Those titles (the last 2 especially) are as much Kobe's as they are Shaq's... You can't take history and make an alternative reality and say well this is why so and so...

If that's the case... If MJ wasn't to ever play, Karl Malone may have 2 or more championships therefore disregard the rankings no debate necessary.. Karl Malone is the greatest PF ever..

Kobe put up finals MVP numbers for 2 of the 3 rings.. And even on the 1st one was personally responsible for 2 of the Lakers finals wins (don't forget he missed almost 2 games due to a sprained ankle).. And just as responsible for pushing the Lakers into the finals in 2000 (especially), 2001 & 2002 as Shaq..

You can't just say I can replace him and I KNOW IN MY HEART WE WOULD HAVE 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS..

You can't disregard someone's championships because they were "#2" when they put up "#1" numbers..

And you can't say what-if's when discussing legacies.. It either is or isn't.. Timmy D, and Kobe are 2 of the greatest players in history.... You don't know if KG is in Tim D's shoes they don't win 5 titles or 1.. You don't know if TMac is in Kobe's shoes they don't win any.. Right players.. Right time... Right situation..

So the whole I can replace him with so and so and still win is bs.. It's something someone pulls out of their %*% to try and make a point based off of nothing..

Man has 5 rings, all of which he contributed, and the 3 where he played "Robin" contributed in a way that most #1 would have given.. He wasn't Mbenga giving you 3 minutes the entire series..

Last I need to say on the subject

 

[essential1]

None of those guys could replace Kobe.. It's pure conjecture... You can't make the comparison because the comparison just doesn't exist.. You could say A is better than B.. Fine.. But you can't say that person is better because he couldn't have been replaced as easily as the other guy.... The Lakers were a perfect storm.. Shaq brought alot as did Kobe.. They were 2-5 USAGE % of each other the entire 3 year title run.. For reference the classic #1-2 of MJ & Scottie was over 10% every year but the 1st title at 7%...Kobe had everything that Shaq needed... And Shaq had everything Kobe needed in those 3 years.....

But to say a guy who averaged 21 then 29 then 26 in 3 straight playoffs.. 22 then 28 then 25 in the regular season those years could be replaced by any STAR SG is conjecture and just stating a what-if that tries to discount the guys legacy...

The second playoff run... Shaq averaged 1 point more than Kobe.. 1...
The third playoff run.. Shaq averaged 1.9 points more than Kobe... 1.9...

And that's with Shaq getting to the line 50-170 times more than Kobe during the entire playoffs each year.

Those titles (the last 2 especially) are as much Kobe's as they are Shaq's... You can't take history and make an alternative reality and say well this is why so and so...

If that's the case... If MJ wasn't to ever play, Karl Malone may have 2 or more championships therefore disregard the rankings no debate necessary.. Karl Malone is the greatest PF ever..

Kobe put up finals MVP numbers for 2 of the 3 rings.. And even on the 1st one was personally responsible for 2 of the Lakers finals wins (don't forget he missed almost 2 games due to a sprained ankle).. And just as responsible for pushing the Lakers into the finals in 2000 (especially), 2001 & 2002 as Shaq..

You can't just say I can replace him and I KNOW IN MY HEART WE WOULD HAVE 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS..

You can't disregard someone's championships because they were "#2" when they put up "#1" numbers..

And you can't say what-if's when discussing legacies.. It either is or isn't.. Timmy D, and Kobe are 2 of the greatest players in history.... You don't know if KG is in Tim D's shoes they don't win 5 titles or 1.. You don't know if TMac is in Kobe's shoes they don't win any.. Right players.. Right time... Right situation..

So the whole I can replace him with so and so and still win is bs.. It's something someone pulls out of their %*% to try and make a point based off of nothing..

Man has 5 rings, all of which he contributed, and the 3 where he played "Robin" contributed in a way that most #1 would have given.. He wasn't Mbenga giving you 3 minutes the entire series..

Last I need to say on the subject

 

[darthska]

GP over Kidd?!

Payton wasn't even mentioned to begin this Legacy thread, and that's fitting, in my opinion.

Kidd is all time great; Payton is a generational great.

 

[darthska]

GP over Kidd?!

Payton wasn't even mentioned to begin this Legacy thread, and that's fitting, in my opinion.

Kidd is all time great; Payton is a generational great.