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NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by CP1708,
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polorico
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I think Jkidd was a way more big part of his team then the glove was at this point in his career.
Dirk is a legend now bottom line simple as that.
Dirk is a legend now bottom line simple as that.
polorico
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I think Jkidd was a way more big part of his team then the glove was at this point in his career.
Dirk is a legend now bottom line simple as that.
Dirk is a legend now bottom line simple as that.
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Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.
He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.
Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.
Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.
He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.
Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.
Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.
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Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.
He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.
Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.
Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.
He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.
Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.
Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.
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Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Oh, I don't mean to make it sound like it would be easy.
The path would be extremely difficult, yeah; but a different kind of difficult.
The difficulties that were brought to the table by 'Shaq & Kobe' would be different than the difficulties in front of 'Shaq & Ray' or 'Shaq and T-Mac'. My contention is simply that those difficulties would be worked out and success would still be the end result.
But the difficulties brought by say 'Dikembe and Kobe' wouldn't amount to the same success, because they'd still have to face Shaq and whatever star SG he was with.
THis is getting way too Butterfly Effect for me.
Point taken...and I totally agree that replacing Kobe would be far easier than replacing Shaq. It's a fact that dominant big men are easier to build around in terms of championship success than than dominant wing players.
However, you stated that "replacing Kobe with any star SG" of that era "would result in the same success". Same success = Three-Peat...something that's extremely rare, not to mention extremely difficult to pull off....to me this is a very strong statement, and if you do believe it, well, i'll respect your opinion. The point I was trying to get at is basketball is more than the physical/stats/plug-n-play type stuff....there's more to it than that. There are so many factors that has to go right to achieve a threepeat, and while i'll never discount the possibility, i think you oversimplified this by saying "INSERT STAR SG HERE".
I'll give you a what if...What if say, our star SG Vince Carter, becomes satisfied by the one championship, and joins Shaq in "taking offseasons/games off" and plateaus as a player...do you think we win a three-peat?
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Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Oh, I don't mean to make it sound like it would be easy.
The path would be extremely difficult, yeah; but a different kind of difficult.
The difficulties that were brought to the table by 'Shaq & Kobe' would be different than the difficulties in front of 'Shaq & Ray' or 'Shaq and T-Mac'. My contention is simply that those difficulties would be worked out and success would still be the end result.
But the difficulties brought by say 'Dikembe and Kobe' wouldn't amount to the same success, because they'd still have to face Shaq and whatever star SG he was with.
THis is getting way too Butterfly Effect for me.
Point taken...and I totally agree that replacing Kobe would be far easier than replacing Shaq. It's a fact that dominant big men are easier to build around in terms of championship success than than dominant wing players.
However, you stated that "replacing Kobe with any star SG" of that era "would result in the same success". Same success = Three-Peat...something that's extremely rare, not to mention extremely difficult to pull off....to me this is a very strong statement, and if you do believe it, well, i'll respect your opinion. The point I was trying to get at is basketball is more than the physical/stats/plug-n-play type stuff....there's more to it than that. There are so many factors that has to go right to achieve a threepeat, and while i'll never discount the possibility, i think you oversimplified this by saying "INSERT STAR SG HERE".
I'll give you a what if...What if say, our star SG Vince Carter, becomes satisfied by the one championship, and joins Shaq in "taking offseasons/games off" and plateaus as a player...do you think we win a three-peat?
darthska
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I do. I think the 2 most difficult possibilities would be Vince and Iverson, but yes, I think we still succeed, to the same tune that we did in reality.
That was too early in his career for Vince to have a reputation of being lazy and complacent. See, where I'm coming from, it's entirely possible that KOBE could be seen as lazy and complacent today, having NEVER BEEN a Laker. I'll stick with your Vince hypothetical and present my opinion this way: Kobe is stuck with his draft day Hornets, and we get Vince somewhere in the late 90s, as well as Phil, just like we did. Say Kobe struggles with the Hornets, goes into what we know today as Kobe Mode, putting up monster games that don't translate to franchise success, so he quits on 'em and bounces to... say... the Nets.
Meanwhile, in LA, Phil is tailoring an offense around Shaq and Vince that works to the tune of a championship, and players like Ron Harper and Horace Grant are brought in to sustain that title defense, just like they've done before on previous teams, and a nice, balanced team of youth and experience, inside and outside, poise and flash is the result. That being the case, yes, I think Vince does what he needs to stay at the top of his game. Only an idiot would be put in that situation and exhale after 1 championship, and Vince doesn't strike me as an idiot.
That was too early in his career for Vince to have a reputation of being lazy and complacent. See, where I'm coming from, it's entirely possible that KOBE could be seen as lazy and complacent today, having NEVER BEEN a Laker. I'll stick with your Vince hypothetical and present my opinion this way: Kobe is stuck with his draft day Hornets, and we get Vince somewhere in the late 90s, as well as Phil, just like we did. Say Kobe struggles with the Hornets, goes into what we know today as Kobe Mode, putting up monster games that don't translate to franchise success, so he quits on 'em and bounces to... say... the Nets.
Meanwhile, in LA, Phil is tailoring an offense around Shaq and Vince that works to the tune of a championship, and players like Ron Harper and Horace Grant are brought in to sustain that title defense, just like they've done before on previous teams, and a nice, balanced team of youth and experience, inside and outside, poise and flash is the result. That being the case, yes, I think Vince does what he needs to stay at the top of his game. Only an idiot would be put in that situation and exhale after 1 championship, and Vince doesn't strike me as an idiot.
darthska
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I do. I think the 2 most difficult possibilities would be Vince and Iverson, but yes, I think we still succeed, to the same tune that we did in reality.
That was too early in his career for Vince to have a reputation of being lazy and complacent. See, where I'm coming from, it's entirely possible that KOBE could be seen as lazy and complacent today, having NEVER BEEN a Laker. I'll stick with your Vince hypothetical and present my opinion this way: Kobe is stuck with his draft day Hornets, and we get Vince somewhere in the late 90s, as well as Phil, just like we did. Say Kobe struggles with the Hornets, goes into what we know today as Kobe Mode, putting up monster games that don't translate to franchise success, so he quits on 'em and bounces to... say... the Nets.
Meanwhile, in LA, Phil is tailoring an offense around Shaq and Vince that works to the tune of a championship, and players like Ron Harper and Horace Grant are brought in to sustain that title defense, just like they've done before on previous teams, and a nice, balanced team of youth and experience, inside and outside, poise and flash is the result. That being the case, yes, I think Vince does what he needs to stay at the top of his game. Only an idiot would be put in that situation and exhale after 1 championship, and Vince doesn't strike me as an idiot.
That was too early in his career for Vince to have a reputation of being lazy and complacent. See, where I'm coming from, it's entirely possible that KOBE could be seen as lazy and complacent today, having NEVER BEEN a Laker. I'll stick with your Vince hypothetical and present my opinion this way: Kobe is stuck with his draft day Hornets, and we get Vince somewhere in the late 90s, as well as Phil, just like we did. Say Kobe struggles with the Hornets, goes into what we know today as Kobe Mode, putting up monster games that don't translate to franchise success, so he quits on 'em and bounces to... say... the Nets.
Meanwhile, in LA, Phil is tailoring an offense around Shaq and Vince that works to the tune of a championship, and players like Ron Harper and Horace Grant are brought in to sustain that title defense, just like they've done before on previous teams, and a nice, balanced team of youth and experience, inside and outside, poise and flash is the result. That being the case, yes, I think Vince does what he needs to stay at the top of his game. Only an idiot would be put in that situation and exhale after 1 championship, and Vince doesn't strike me as an idiot.
JD, good write up on Pierce, I will file that in the morning. Dirk, sounds good. Remember to copy before you post, don't get Yuku'd with something like this. Allen, sounds good on Pierce, but I have one more favor to ask......I need a Kobe from you. I gave you first Bron, come on, I know you can handle the Kobe piece. Don't have to be soon or anything, let me get a couple Pro-Kobe's first. You cool with that?
JD, good write up on Pierce, I will file that in the morning. Dirk, sounds good. Remember to copy before you post, don't get Yuku'd with something like this. Allen, sounds good on Pierce, but I have one more favor to ask......I need a Kobe from you. I gave you first Bron, come on, I know you can handle the Kobe piece. Don't have to be soon or anything, let me get a couple Pro-Kobe's first. You cool with that?
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Hey, I said from Day 1 -- Never anti-Kobe just Pro-Bron. sometimes it just had to cross over.
2000-2003 is a blur for me anyway, my interest in the NBA was at an all time low so I'm not the best guy to speak on Kobe or Duncan's overall careers. Or I should say, At least Western Conference basketball and obviously things were stacked to that side during that stretch.
2000-2003 is a blur for me anyway, my interest in the NBA was at an all time low so I'm not the best guy to speak on Kobe or Duncan's overall careers. Or I should say, At least Western Conference basketball and obviously things were stacked to that side during that stretch.
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Hey, I said from Day 1 -- Never anti-Kobe just Pro-Bron. sometimes it just had to cross over.
2000-2003 is a blur for me anyway, my interest in the NBA was at an all time low so I'm not the best guy to speak on Kobe or Duncan's overall careers. Or I should say, At least Western Conference basketball and obviously things were stacked to that side during that stretch.
2000-2003 is a blur for me anyway, my interest in the NBA was at an all time low so I'm not the best guy to speak on Kobe or Duncan's overall careers. Or I should say, At least Western Conference basketball and obviously things were stacked to that side during that stretch.
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Didn't know which thread to put this in, but is it possible to make the analogy that Lebron is basically the athletic version of Alec Baldwin? If you remember, Hollywood tried its hardest to turn Baldwin into a leading man back in the late '80s (Hunt For Red October comes to mind). He had leading man talent but clearly didn't want to be in that position. There are lot of theories as to how Baldwin wiggled his way out of that burden (gaining a lot of weight being one of them). Eventually Hollywood stopped calling for leading roles and Baldwin was able to do exactly what he wanted, which was be a second or third billed actor, with as much (if not more) talent than any lead, who could steal the show in any given performance. We celebrate a guy like Baldwin for having such tremendous talent because he went through the whole rigor of "is he a leading man, or isn't he?" discussion. Perhaps at some point we will have to come to the same conclusion with Lebron: the most talented, mot charismatic guy in the room, yet would rather steal the show on a given night instead of carry the burden of a leading man.
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Didn't know which thread to put this in, but is it possible to make the analogy that Lebron is basically the athletic version of Alec Baldwin? If you remember, Hollywood tried its hardest to turn Baldwin into a leading man back in the late '80s (Hunt For Red October comes to mind). He had leading man talent but clearly didn't want to be in that position. There are lot of theories as to how Baldwin wiggled his way out of that burden (gaining a lot of weight being one of them). Eventually Hollywood stopped calling for leading roles and Baldwin was able to do exactly what he wanted, which was be a second or third billed actor, with as much (if not more) talent than any lead, who could steal the show in any given performance. We celebrate a guy like Baldwin for having such tremendous talent because he went through the whole rigor of "is he a leading man, or isn't he?" discussion. Perhaps at some point we will have to come to the same conclusion with Lebron: the most talented, mot charismatic guy in the room, yet would rather steal the show on a given night instead of carry the burden of a leading man.
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I'm not going to write a long elaborate post, but...
as far as pure PGs go, IMO Jason Kidd is the best to ever play the game outside of Magic. Stockton is right there but to me, Kidd's overall impact on games makes him a superior player. The question I asked myself was, if I was an opposing player would I rather play against Stockton or Kidd? The answer has to be Kidd, hands down. Imagine if you were the one assigned to guard him for 4 quarters.., having to guard him, pressure him on the ball (more difficult because of his strength), box him out on the boards, and on top of that the guy is dogging you on D all game..
And I believe that if he played with a dominant force like Malone his entire career, his career APG would be up there with Stockton's for sure.
One thing about Stockton, though, that I just saw on bball-reference and thought was a typo, is that he missed 54 games out of 1004.. he played sixteen FULL 82 game seasons (including 5 straight, and 7 straight, then ended with 4 straight)
that's unheard of in today's game and should be acknowledged.
as far as pure PGs go, IMO Jason Kidd is the best to ever play the game outside of Magic. Stockton is right there but to me, Kidd's overall impact on games makes him a superior player. The question I asked myself was, if I was an opposing player would I rather play against Stockton or Kidd? The answer has to be Kidd, hands down. Imagine if you were the one assigned to guard him for 4 quarters.., having to guard him, pressure him on the ball (more difficult because of his strength), box him out on the boards, and on top of that the guy is dogging you on D all game..
And I believe that if he played with a dominant force like Malone his entire career, his career APG would be up there with Stockton's for sure.
One thing about Stockton, though, that I just saw on bball-reference and thought was a typo, is that he missed 54 games out of 1004.. he played sixteen FULL 82 game seasons (including 5 straight, and 7 straight, then ended with 4 straight)
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I'm not going to write a long elaborate post, but...
as far as pure PGs go, IMO Jason Kidd is the best to ever play the game outside of Magic. Stockton is right there but to me, Kidd's overall impact on games makes him a superior player. The question I asked myself was, if I was an opposing player would I rather play against Stockton or Kidd? The answer has to be Kidd, hands down. Imagine if you were the one assigned to guard him for 4 quarters.., having to guard him, pressure him on the ball (more difficult because of his strength), box him out on the boards, and on top of that the guy is dogging you on D all game..
And I believe that if he played with a dominant force like Malone his entire career, his career APG would be up there with Stockton's for sure.
One thing about Stockton, though, that I just saw on bball-reference and thought was a typo, is that he missed 54 games out of 1004.. he played sixteen FULL 82 game seasons (including 5 straight, and 7 straight, then ended with 4 straight)
that's unheard of in today's game and should be acknowledged.
as far as pure PGs go, IMO Jason Kidd is the best to ever play the game outside of Magic. Stockton is right there but to me, Kidd's overall impact on games makes him a superior player. The question I asked myself was, if I was an opposing player would I rather play against Stockton or Kidd? The answer has to be Kidd, hands down. Imagine if you were the one assigned to guard him for 4 quarters.., having to guard him, pressure him on the ball (more difficult because of his strength), box him out on the boards, and on top of that the guy is dogging you on D all game..
And I believe that if he played with a dominant force like Malone his entire career, his career APG would be up there with Stockton's for sure.
One thing about Stockton, though, that I just saw on bball-reference and thought was a typo, is that he missed 54 games out of 1004.. he played sixteen FULL 82 game seasons (including 5 straight, and 7 straight, then ended with 4 straight)
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I haven't caught up on the thread yet but you can't replace Kobe's D with VC, allan houston, AI or Ray Allen. Kobe was also playing great defense and who knows if those guys were clutch enough to make the plays that Kobe did.
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I haven't caught up on the thread yet but you can't replace Kobe's D with VC, allan houston, AI or Ray Allen. Kobe was also playing great defense and who knows if those guys were clutch enough to make the plays that Kobe did.
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admittedly kobe's defense is better than all of those all-star SGs, but after thinking about it..
which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?
the kings started doug christie as their SG
the spurs started bruce bowen
the blazers started steve smith
which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?
the kings started doug christie as their SG
the spurs started bruce bowen
the blazers started steve smith
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admittedly kobe's defense is better than all of those all-star SGs, but after thinking about it..
which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?
the kings started doug christie as their SG
the spurs started bruce bowen
the blazers started steve smith
which LA rival during those seasons really had a top flight SG that LA would have been crushed without kobe's defense?
the kings started doug christie as their SG
the spurs started bruce bowen
the blazers started steve smith
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please remember that my argument is that 00-03 kobe (his 1st 3 titles) is easier to replace than duncan on his 4 championship teams
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please remember that my argument is that 00-03 kobe (his 1st 3 titles) is easier to replace than duncan on his 4 championship teams
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Steve Smith and Bonzi Wells gave Kobe trouble back then. Smith would post up and shoot over him and Wells would just back him down and power the ball through.
