NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Originally Posted by CP1708

To be honest with ya'll, I still have Gary Payton ahead of Jason Kidd any day. 

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.  Kidd did rebound better than GP, but a lock down defender like that, at the point of my defense? 

  Gimme that each and every time without question. 

This. I've wanted to hit on this subject when it came to PG's because I will always feel that GP hasn't gotten enough credit for how good he actually was by fans today.

Payton's loud mouth seems to overshadow his amazing skill set. He had the best post game of any PG that I truly remember watching in the mid to late nineties and even from what you see today. His defense was one thing, and one thing that we should all agree on, but like dmbrhs said, he had the ability to re-tool his game depending on the talent that surrounded him. It may have been boring to watch, but when Payton had the ball on the post with an intention to score, he was extremely effective and it was debilitating to the opposition.

    

I will give him that. I just wish the Sonics had been able to put more around him rather than say "here's the ball Gary...go to work!" He wasn't meant to be much more than a 20 ppg guy, but he made the best of it. And his defense is unparalleled at the PG position. He punked Stockton head to head. That's enough for me.

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Originally Posted by CP1708

To be honest with ya'll, I still have Gary Payton ahead of Jason Kidd any day. 

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.  Kidd did rebound better than GP, but a lock down defender like that, at the point of my defense? 

  Gimme that each and every time without question. 

This. I've wanted to hit on this subject when it came to PG's because I will always feel that GP hasn't gotten enough credit for how good he actually was by fans today.

Payton's loud mouth seems to overshadow his amazing skill set. He had the best post game of any PG that I truly remember watching in the mid to late nineties and even from what you see today. His defense was one thing, and one thing that we should all agree on, but like dmbrhs said, he had the ability to re-tool his game depending on the talent that surrounded him. It may have been boring to watch, but when Payton had the ball on the post with an intention to score, he was extremely effective and it was debilitating to the opposition.

    

I will give him that. I just wish the Sonics had been able to put more around him rather than say "here's the ball Gary...go to work!" He wasn't meant to be much more than a 20 ppg guy, but he made the best of it. And his defense is unparalleled at the PG position. He punked Stockton head to head. That's enough for me.

 

[651akathepaul]

Just because Kidd's career spanned over a longer time period doesn't make him more historically significant than Payton. Both Payton and Kidd could have been considered the best at their position a few times during their career. In your mind there is a big gap, but the gap shouldn't be as far as you think.

I would take Payton over Kidd, but would respect any argument that interchanges the two.  

Edit - Come to think of it, Payton played for a long time.

 

[651akathepaul]

Just because Kidd's career spanned over a longer time period doesn't make him more historically significant than Payton. Both Payton and Kidd could have been considered the best at their position a few times during their career. In your mind there is a big gap, but the gap shouldn't be as far as you think.

I would take Payton over Kidd, but would respect any argument that interchanges the two.  

Edit - Come to think of it, Payton played for a long time.

 

[darthska]

I'm not saying Kidd is an all time great and Payton is a generation great because of their time frames; I'm saying it because I think Kidd is among the greatest of all time, and I think Payton is among the greatest of his generation.

 

[darthska]

I'm not saying Kidd is an all time great and Payton is a generation great because of their time frames; I'm saying it because I think Kidd is among the greatest of all time, and I think Payton is among the greatest of his generation.

 

[koolbarbone]

Originally Posted by JD617


He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career.

Also known as the game when America found out that he had a giant back tattoo.

 

[koolbarbone]

Originally Posted by JD617


He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career.

Also known as the game when America found out that he had a giant back tattoo.

 

[japanair21]

Ehh, I'd take Kidd over GP too.. In their prime, are they really that much different defensively? And GP was NEVER the play-maker Kidd was. Scoring and shooting really weren't apart of The Glove's game as much as Stockton or Isiah, so I can't really give him that either.

IMO, you put a gun to my head and ask for five PGs, I give you Magic, Big O, Isiah, Kidd, and Stockton.

 

[japanair21]

Ehh, I'd take Kidd over GP too.. In their prime, are they really that much different defensively? And GP was NEVER the play-maker Kidd was. Scoring and shooting really weren't apart of The Glove's game as much as Stockton or Isiah, so I can't really give him that either.

IMO, you put a gun to my head and ask for five PGs, I give you Magic, Big O, Isiah, Kidd, and Stockton.

 

[flossb15]

I love how people think it is so easy to replace a top 10 player of all time. Not one of those guards could of replaced Kobe imo

Like the dude above me said it was a perfect storm and granted SHAQ was the dominant player, but Kobe being equally talented at a different position is what drove that team, the will and the competitive spirit, the lil brother big brother, the Shaq having something to prove ec all these things were factors outside of the physical talent that helped LA win ... Any other player would not have challenged SHAQ as Kobe did... I see another player winning 1 championship but not 3 yeat alone going to 4 finals

Think of it this way - SHAQ has played with practically a who's who of guards all the way from college (chris jackson, penny, van exel, eddie jones, kobe, lebron, steve hash, wade, rondo) out of all these guards he was most successful with Kobe for a reason, and the same Shaq who wouldnt DEFER to Kobe, went to Miami deferred to WADE and won, imagine that ... makes you think if he would of deferred to Kobe while in LA what would of happened


and on Kidd vs Payton I'm taking KIDD

 

[flossb15]

I love how people think it is so easy to replace a top 10 player of all time. Not one of those guards could of replaced Kobe imo

Like the dude above me said it was a perfect storm and granted SHAQ was the dominant player, but Kobe being equally talented at a different position is what drove that team, the will and the competitive spirit, the lil brother big brother, the Shaq having something to prove ec all these things were factors outside of the physical talent that helped LA win ... Any other player would not have challenged SHAQ as Kobe did... I see another player winning 1 championship but not 3 yeat alone going to 4 finals

Think of it this way - SHAQ has played with practically a who's who of guards all the way from college (chris jackson, penny, van exel, eddie jones, kobe, lebron, steve hash, wade, rondo) out of all these guards he was most successful with Kobe for a reason, and the same Shaq who wouldnt DEFER to Kobe, went to Miami deferred to WADE and won, imagine that ... makes you think if he would of deferred to Kobe while in LA what would of happened


and on Kidd vs Payton I'm taking KIDD

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by Essential1

None of those guys could replace Kobe.. It's pure conjecture... You can't make the comparison because the comparison just doesn't exist.. You could say A is better than B.. Fine.. But you can't say that person is better because he couldn't have been replaced as easily as the other guy.... The Lakers were a perfect storm.. Shaq brought alot as did Kobe.. They were 2-5 USAGE % of each other the entire 3 year title run.. For reference the classic #1-2 of MJ & Scottie was over 10% every year but the 1st title at 7%...Kobe had everything that Shaq needed... And Shaq had everything Kobe needed in those 3 years.....

But to say a guy who averaged 21 then 29 then 26 in 3 straight playoffs.. 22 then 28 then 25 in the regular season those years could be replaced by any STAR SG is conjecture and just stating a what-if that tries to discount the guys legacy...

The second playoff run... Shaq averaged 1 point more than Kobe.. 1...
The third playoff run.. Shaq averaged 1.9 points more than Kobe... 1.9...

And that's with Shaq getting to the line 50-170 times more than Kobe during the entire playoffs each year.

Those titles (the last 2 especially) are as much Kobe's as they are Shaq's... You can't take history and make an alternative reality and say well this is why so and so...

If that's the case... If MJ wasn't to ever play, Karl Malone may have 2 or more championships therefore disregard the rankings no debate necessary.. Karl Malone is the greatest PF ever..

Kobe put up finals MVP numbers for 2 of the 3 rings.. And even on the 1st one was personally responsible for 2 of the Lakers finals wins (don't forget he missed almost 2 games due to a sprained ankle).. And just as responsible for pushing the Lakers into the finals in 2000 (especially), 2001 & 2002 as Shaq..

You can't just say I can replace him and I KNOW IN MY HEART WE WOULD HAVE 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS..

You can't disregard someone's championships because they were "#2" when they put up "#1" numbers..

And you can't say what-if's when discussing legacies.. It either is or isn't.. Timmy D, and Kobe are 2 of the greatest players in history.... You don't know if KG is in Tim D's shoes they don't win 5 titles or 1.. You don't know if TMac is in Kobe's shoes they don't win any.. Right players.. Right time... Right situation..

So the whole I can replace him with so and so and still win is bs.. It's something someone pulls out of their %*% to try and make a point based off of nothing..

Man has 5 rings, all of which he contributed, and the 3 where he played "Robin" contributed in a way that most #1 would have given.. He wasn't Mbenga giving you 3 minutes the entire series..

Last I need to say on the subject

ummm relax.. by no means am i saying kobe is trash or that he didn't contribute.. i think he's the 2nd greatest SG of all-time (not an accolade i would have given him after the first 3 titles) and 3rd greatest laker right now (he's behind kareem and magic for me RIGHT NOW)

i just don't think he is better than duncan as things presently stand.. but i would put him ahead of shaq in the post jordan grouping (shaq was the better talent, but his laziness kept him back)

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by Essential1

None of those guys could replace Kobe.. It's pure conjecture... You can't make the comparison because the comparison just doesn't exist.. You could say A is better than B.. Fine.. But you can't say that person is better because he couldn't have been replaced as easily as the other guy.... The Lakers were a perfect storm.. Shaq brought alot as did Kobe.. They were 2-5 USAGE % of each other the entire 3 year title run.. For reference the classic #1-2 of MJ & Scottie was over 10% every year but the 1st title at 7%...Kobe had everything that Shaq needed... And Shaq had everything Kobe needed in those 3 years.....

But to say a guy who averaged 21 then 29 then 26 in 3 straight playoffs.. 22 then 28 then 25 in the regular season those years could be replaced by any STAR SG is conjecture and just stating a what-if that tries to discount the guys legacy...

The second playoff run... Shaq averaged 1 point more than Kobe.. 1...
The third playoff run.. Shaq averaged 1.9 points more than Kobe... 1.9...

And that's with Shaq getting to the line 50-170 times more than Kobe during the entire playoffs each year.

Those titles (the last 2 especially) are as much Kobe's as they are Shaq's... You can't take history and make an alternative reality and say well this is why so and so...

If that's the case... If MJ wasn't to ever play, Karl Malone may have 2 or more championships therefore disregard the rankings no debate necessary.. Karl Malone is the greatest PF ever..

Kobe put up finals MVP numbers for 2 of the 3 rings.. And even on the 1st one was personally responsible for 2 of the Lakers finals wins (don't forget he missed almost 2 games due to a sprained ankle).. And just as responsible for pushing the Lakers into the finals in 2000 (especially), 2001 & 2002 as Shaq..

You can't just say I can replace him and I KNOW IN MY HEART WE WOULD HAVE 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS..

You can't disregard someone's championships because they were "#2" when they put up "#1" numbers..

And you can't say what-if's when discussing legacies.. It either is or isn't.. Timmy D, and Kobe are 2 of the greatest players in history.... You don't know if KG is in Tim D's shoes they don't win 5 titles or 1.. You don't know if TMac is in Kobe's shoes they don't win any.. Right players.. Right time... Right situation..

So the whole I can replace him with so and so and still win is bs.. It's something someone pulls out of their %*% to try and make a point based off of nothing..

Man has 5 rings, all of which he contributed, and the 3 where he played "Robin" contributed in a way that most #1 would have given.. He wasn't Mbenga giving you 3 minutes the entire series..

Last I need to say on the subject

ummm relax.. by no means am i saying kobe is trash or that he didn't contribute.. i think he's the 2nd greatest SG of all-time (not an accolade i would have given him after the first 3 titles) and 3rd greatest laker right now (he's behind kareem and magic for me RIGHT NOW)

i just don't think he is better than duncan as things presently stand.. but i would put him ahead of shaq in the post jordan grouping (shaq was the better talent, but his laziness kept him back)

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.


8 assists for a star point guard playing around 40 minutes is nothing. There was just as much of a difference between them as facilitators as there was as scorers. And since a point guard's main job is to facilitate, give me Kidd.

Kidd was a phenomenal defender as well. He was also a much better rebounder than Payton, the third greatest rebounding point guard ever.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.


8 assists for a star point guard playing around 40 minutes is nothing. There was just as much of a difference between them as facilitators as there was as scorers. And since a point guard's main job is to facilitate, give me Kidd.

Kidd was a phenomenal defender as well. He was also a much better rebounder than Payton, the third greatest rebounding point guard ever.

 

[CP1708]

Xtap, please check Allen's write up for Lebron in the OP. If you have the time can you give a similar quote? I'd also take one on both Shaq and Kobe if your willing. Gary Payton is one of thee best defenders at any position, now Kidd's D isn't that far off? I duuuuuunno about that.

 

[CP1708]

Xtap, please check Allen's write up for Lebron in the OP. If you have the time can you give a similar quote? I'd also take one on both Shaq and Kobe if your willing. Gary Payton is one of thee best defenders at any position, now Kidd's D isn't that far off? I duuuuuunno about that.

 

[deuce king]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

^ For me, it was to entertain the discussion that Shaq was the irreplaceable star of that squad, not Kobe. In the opinion of some, Kobe was replaceable, and there's the beginning of this whole discussion.

There it is!!  You know some days I enter the S&T forum and see all types of statements that are disturbing or upsetting..............but then I read a post like this above by ska and it's lets me know that things are back on track here in S&T and that good days are still ahead for us as a whole IMO. 

Those titles (the last 2 especially) are as much Kobe's as they are Shaq's... 


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there champ.  Those titles are more Shaq's than Kobe's between the two if anything.  Reason being Shaq drew far more double/triple teams and was the center of defensive attention of the opposing teams game plan.  When teams played the Lakers they thought of how they were going to stop Shaq.  That being said Kobe didn't come close to dominating to the extent that Shaq did even though the defenses primarily were focused on trying to stop Shaq. 

You can't disregard someone's championships because they were "#2" when they put up "#1" numbers..


If Kobe truly did put up #1 numbers he would have been Finals MVP when Shaq was around, instead he didn't therefore he wasn't. 



  

 

[deuce king]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

^ For me, it was to entertain the discussion that Shaq was the irreplaceable star of that squad, not Kobe. In the opinion of some, Kobe was replaceable, and there's the beginning of this whole discussion.

There it is!!  You know some days I enter the S&T forum and see all types of statements that are disturbing or upsetting..............but then I read a post like this above by ska and it's lets me know that things are back on track here in S&T and that good days are still ahead for us as a whole IMO. 

Those titles (the last 2 especially) are as much Kobe's as they are Shaq's... 


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there champ.  Those titles are more Shaq's than Kobe's between the two if anything.  Reason being Shaq drew far more double/triple teams and was the center of defensive attention of the opposing teams game plan.  When teams played the Lakers they thought of how they were going to stop Shaq.  That being said Kobe didn't come close to dominating to the extent that Shaq did even though the defenses primarily were focused on trying to stop Shaq. 

You can't disregard someone's championships because they were "#2" when they put up "#1" numbers..


If Kobe truly did put up #1 numbers he would have been Finals MVP when Shaq was around, instead he didn't therefore he wasn't. 



  

 

[CP1708]

Deuce, if all you're going to do is refute Kobe stuff over and over and over and over and ignore points people make by simply saying "wrong champ" then just slide on along to the next thread.  Let the grown ups talk. 

I'd take Kidd over GP too.. In their prime, are they really that much different defensively?

 

[CP1708]

Deuce, if all you're going to do is refute Kobe stuff over and over and over and over and ignore points people make by simply saying "wrong champ" then just slide on along to the next thread.  Let the grown ups talk. 

I'd take Kidd over GP too.. In their prime, are they really that much different defensively?

 

[deuce king]

Deuce, if all you're going to do is refute Kobe stuff over and over and over and over and ignore points people make by simply saying "wrong champ" then just slide on along to the next thread.  Let the grown ups talk. 

 
Well I didn't just say "wrong champ" and not state my point of view.  Go back and re-read the second sentence in my previous post, I gave specific reasons.

I'd take Kidd over GP too

Now this I will agree with on............champ

.

 

[deuce king]

Deuce, if all you're going to do is refute Kobe stuff over and over and over and over and ignore points people make by simply saying "wrong champ" then just slide on along to the next thread.  Let the grown ups talk. 

 
Well I didn't just say "wrong champ" and not state my point of view.  Go back and re-read the second sentence in my previous post, I gave specific reasons.

I'd take Kidd over GP too

Now this I will agree with on............champ

.

 

[IATT]

maybe i'm just overvaluing how good those lakers teams really were and how dominate shaq was back then..

again remember, all i am saying is that i think it would be harder for the spurs to win any of those 4 championships without duncan than it would be for LA to win any of those 3 without kobe

and if i was starting a team today and given the choice of drafting kobe's career to date or duncan's career to date.. i go with duncan, hence why i rate him higher all-time to date (i think both are top 10 all-time)