NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

gangsta207therevolution:

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Ska your blinded by your Kobe hate right now.

gangsta207therevolution:

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I know Ska has a thing about Kobe, but he is straight up hating on him.
I love when people say BS like this.

What did I say that was hateful?

"No, I mean, you're basically saying..."

EFF 'BASICALLY'! What. Did I say. That was hating?

"Well, by saying that Kobe sucks..." Stop it. Is that gonna be your response? Because... I never said that.

How about "You're saying Kobe's a scrub"? You gonna bring that to the table? Because I never said that, either. 

So what exactly did I say that was hating?

There are a lot of cases where a fan thinks that a certain someone pisses excellence and brunches w/ Jesus regularly, and the feelings of that fan get hurt when they find out someone refuses to agree that this certain someone is the product of Greek gods. This isn't one of those cases, is it? 

CP:

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Everyone can relax, Ska is a certified Laker fan, he has every single right in the world to talk on Kobe, he's seen as many of Kobe's games as anyone around, it's not hate or whatever when it's your own dang team guys. 

  Let the guy breathe.  We have plenty of people in here that will be pro Kobe, let someone else speak freely "against" Kobe.  That's the point of discussing resumes and of course, Legacies. 

He's not hating, he's giving a different view of Kobe as a Laker fan.  Let him speak without freaking.  Arguing a point is fine, chill with all the "hater" crap.
My dude. 

You know full well that isnt the case. But at the very minimum you have been between Deuce King, and CP the whole time.
Im closer to CP personally in how I feel about Kobe as I said in my previous post before reading this one.
Guys like Tmac, Pierce and if he could be tamed Iverson have the best combination of skill and mental strength.
But I would argue you that Shaq needed Kobe's challenges? That almost eliminates Tmac.
 They needed Kobe's size and ability to defend 3 positions. That eliminates Iverson
And they needed his Ball Handling as Phil would play Ron Harper and Brian Shaw before Fisher.
There would have been ways, but if Kobe is in the same cities as Mac was in 2001, Iverson in 2001 and Pierce in 2001 or even if the Lakers decided they wanted Vince, The Bucks took Kobe for Ray Allen. It is my opinion that all of those teams are in the finals against Shaq.
Philly as constructed that year, maybe with a pass first pg are the best bet to at bare minimum win more games in the finals against Shaq and the "all star SG"  Mac and Kobe, or Vince and Kobe still are giving the Lakers fits.
The problem I thought about and I have with your statement about the "all star SG" replacing Kobe is that your forgeting Newtons 3rd Law of Physics. If im crazy and it doesnt apply tell me.
Thats why I said the Kidd Marion trade was the best situation, and that doesnt involve an "all star SG" unless its Eddie Jones.

 

[darthska]

*looks up Newton's 3rd law*

Is that the one about equal and opposite?

Yep. I'm not gonna say that you're crazy and it doesn't apply, because I don't see how it does, so maybe I'm crazy by not seeing it.

Be that as it may, I disagree that Shaq 'needed' Kobe's challenges. People often use Michael and Scottie ++# a template. Did they challenge each other the way Shaq was challenged by Kobe? Did we read report after report after report of Scottie feuding with Michael because he wanted it to be HIS team? Hell, even Duncan and Parker. Both of them are Finals MVPs, and we all heard Duncan joke about Parker stealing that Finals MVP from him, but in the end, that's it; they're teammates, and the spotlight is not an issue between them, and hasn't been throughout their title run. So no, I can't say Shaq needed all that infighting. I think if he had someone who had the skill and size of Kobe but who deferred a little more, it would have been LOVELY.

 

[darthska]

*looks up Newton's 3rd law*

Is that the one about equal and opposite?

Yep. I'm not gonna say that you're crazy and it doesn't apply, because I don't see how it does, so maybe I'm crazy by not seeing it.

Be that as it may, I disagree that Shaq 'needed' Kobe's challenges. People often use Michael and Scottie ++# a template. Did they challenge each other the way Shaq was challenged by Kobe? Did we read report after report after report of Scottie feuding with Michael because he wanted it to be HIS team? Hell, even Duncan and Parker. Both of them are Finals MVPs, and we all heard Duncan joke about Parker stealing that Finals MVP from him, but in the end, that's it; they're teammates, and the spotlight is not an issue between them, and hasn't been throughout their title run. So no, I can't say Shaq needed all that infighting. I think if he had someone who had the skill and size of Kobe but who deferred a little more, it would have been LOVELY.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by CP1708

gangsta207therevolution wrote:

I gave Duncan and Kobe 9 titles, and when you think about it its not that far fetched. 

Yeah it is.  

That's a TON of extra games played, and nobody can just go thru that year after year without wearing down at some point.  3-4 years tops before people start breakin down for a year or two.  

I gave Shaq and Kobe a possible 6-7 off of what could have been, with it mind that they would have broken down big time after a spell.  It's not the same as the 60's, no more 7 game postseason years where you win a title, winning a title now is about 20-23 games.  HUGE difference. 

  
True, and 6-7 is more realistic.
But when it came down to the Spurs and Lakers getting to virtually every Western finals I gave Duncan and Kobe the benefit of the doubt.

To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions.

Thats the gest of what I was getting at, if Kobe and Shaq are close to being equal, which sans position they are then there has to be an reaction accross the league from Kobe being traded.
All of the destinations he could have gone to would have some sort of impact. Thats where the Kobe in Philly, Toronto and Boston thing came from.
Phoenix would have been the closest thing to purgatory for him

The Kobe discussion is imo done, lets move on.
Ska made the somewhat inflamitory statement and its time to move on.

Kobe's Legacy.
He could drive the car or he could ride shotgun and navigate.
By the way Horry and Fisher are back seat drivers....

      

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by CP1708

gangsta207therevolution wrote:

I gave Duncan and Kobe 9 titles, and when you think about it its not that far fetched. 

Yeah it is.  

That's a TON of extra games played, and nobody can just go thru that year after year without wearing down at some point.  3-4 years tops before people start breakin down for a year or two.  

I gave Shaq and Kobe a possible 6-7 off of what could have been, with it mind that they would have broken down big time after a spell.  It's not the same as the 60's, no more 7 game postseason years where you win a title, winning a title now is about 20-23 games.  HUGE difference. 

  
True, and 6-7 is more realistic.
But when it came down to the Spurs and Lakers getting to virtually every Western finals I gave Duncan and Kobe the benefit of the doubt.

To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions.

Thats the gest of what I was getting at, if Kobe and Shaq are close to being equal, which sans position they are then there has to be an reaction accross the league from Kobe being traded.
All of the destinations he could have gone to would have some sort of impact. Thats where the Kobe in Philly, Toronto and Boston thing came from.
Phoenix would have been the closest thing to purgatory for him

The Kobe discussion is imo done, lets move on.
Ska made the somewhat inflamitory statement and its time to move on.

Kobe's Legacy.
He could drive the car or he could ride shotgun and navigate.
By the way Horry and Fisher are back seat drivers....

      

 

[CP1708]

I know that someone is working on a Ray quote, I assume the Mavs people will handle Dirk and any more Kidd quotes, so guys that haven't been touched on too much yet are Nash, Pierce, and Duncan. 

I'll have something on Lebron of my own probably tomorrow, but it will pale compare to what Allen did today. 

I'll probably post something on Ray and Kobe later on sometime.  Maybe Wade if no one else does. 

I suppose I could give a Nash quote, but really I could just look up one of the 1500 I've already typed on here. 

  One new angle though could be where he ends up his career.  I do not think it will be in Phoenix. 

I was hard on Iverson earlier saying 70-80ish, I screwed up there, that kid is top 25-30 no question.  I claim temporary brain freeze there. 

 

[CP1708]

I know that someone is working on a Ray quote, I assume the Mavs people will handle Dirk and any more Kidd quotes, so guys that haven't been touched on too much yet are Nash, Pierce, and Duncan. 

I'll have something on Lebron of my own probably tomorrow, but it will pale compare to what Allen did today. 

I'll probably post something on Ray and Kobe later on sometime.  Maybe Wade if no one else does. 

I suppose I could give a Nash quote, but really I could just look up one of the 1500 I've already typed on here. 

  One new angle though could be where he ends up his career.  I do not think it will be in Phoenix. 

I was hard on Iverson earlier saying 70-80ish, I screwed up there, that kid is top 25-30 no question.  I claim temporary brain freeze there. 

 

[vc3fan]

CP, let me throw you this. If Eddie jones stayed as the two guard with shaq in LA when they won, would it be the system or the player???


I'm not saying Kobe does not have lock HOF career but in trying to defend Ska, he is not saying if Doug Christie was the sg or anything. Lol

 

[vc3fan]

CP, let me throw you this. If Eddie jones stayed as the two guard with shaq in LA when they won, would it be the system or the player???


I'm not saying Kobe does not have lock HOF career but in trying to defend Ska, he is not saying if Doug Christie was the sg or anything. Lol

 

[CP1708]

I liked Eddie Jones, I really did.  He was really the first draft pick within the top 10 I ever seen as a Laker fan. 

He really helped us bridge the gap between Magic and Shaq when he teamed up with Nick a couple years. 

But that kid was never anywhere even remotely in the same solar system as Kobe.  NOT CLOSE. 

Eddie was not gonna be a ball handler, he wasn't gonna be an off the dribble shooter, he was a good defender, but so slender he could get overmatched with strength.  Bonzi was tough on Kobe, imagine what Bonzi would do to Eddie in the post. 

We would have still been good with Eddie, sure, but elite?  Title winners?  With Eddie tryin to take the shots at end of games? 

  Naw man, that wasn't gonna happen. 


Allen made a good point, Bron was the best HS to pro at age 18 ever.  He certainly was.  Kobe NEEDED those 2 years to grow and develop.  But the day he entered the starting lineup in 99 after the lockout, IT WAS OVER.  Kobe started at SF that day, and hasn't looked back since.  Jerry West said at the time, once he makes the starting lineup, we'll never get him back out.  They never did.  That kid was ready right away. 

Had he played for Charlotte, and started at 18 35 minutes a night, his numbers would be flat out stupid ridiculous.  But we'll never know if he would have won or not.  Depends on the front office and what he had to work with.  Jerry West knows evaluating better than anybody imo.  He don't miss too often.  He didn't here either.  He didn't even NEED Kobe since he had a young Eddie, and he still went out and got that 18 year old kid (17 at the time) makes ya wonder why don't it?  And by all accounts, Kobe kicked Eddie's @#$ in practice and it didn't take long. 

 

[CP1708]

I liked Eddie Jones, I really did.  He was really the first draft pick within the top 10 I ever seen as a Laker fan. 

He really helped us bridge the gap between Magic and Shaq when he teamed up with Nick a couple years. 

But that kid was never anywhere even remotely in the same solar system as Kobe.  NOT CLOSE. 

Eddie was not gonna be a ball handler, he wasn't gonna be an off the dribble shooter, he was a good defender, but so slender he could get overmatched with strength.  Bonzi was tough on Kobe, imagine what Bonzi would do to Eddie in the post. 

We would have still been good with Eddie, sure, but elite?  Title winners?  With Eddie tryin to take the shots at end of games? 

  Naw man, that wasn't gonna happen. 


Allen made a good point, Bron was the best HS to pro at age 18 ever.  He certainly was.  Kobe NEEDED those 2 years to grow and develop.  But the day he entered the starting lineup in 99 after the lockout, IT WAS OVER.  Kobe started at SF that day, and hasn't looked back since.  Jerry West said at the time, once he makes the starting lineup, we'll never get him back out.  They never did.  That kid was ready right away. 

Had he played for Charlotte, and started at 18 35 minutes a night, his numbers would be flat out stupid ridiculous.  But we'll never know if he would have won or not.  Depends on the front office and what he had to work with.  Jerry West knows evaluating better than anybody imo.  He don't miss too often.  He didn't here either.  He didn't even NEED Kobe since he had a young Eddie, and he still went out and got that 18 year old kid (17 at the time) makes ya wonder why don't it?  And by all accounts, Kobe kicked Eddie's @#$ in practice and it didn't take long. 

 

[koolbarbone]

Pierce is undoubtedly my favorite Celtic behind Bird.

No muscle definition, no problem.

He does everything well - nothing great - but when it comes to the end of the game, he is the guy I want taking the last shot.

Rank him in the second tier of shooting guards all you want, however, his step-back in crunch time is elite.

 

[koolbarbone]

Pierce is undoubtedly my favorite Celtic behind Bird.

No muscle definition, no problem.

He does everything well - nothing great - but when it comes to the end of the game, he is the guy I want taking the last shot.

Rank him in the second tier of shooting guards all you want, however, his step-back in crunch time is elite.

 

[al3xis]

I might write something up about Pierce if I have the time. Got to watch the guy throughout his career and he's went from someone I really disliked to just the opposite. Simmons pretty much covered the transformation as well as it gets in his book.

Still, though to this day him being this close to passing away..just eerie given Bias and Reggie Lewis. The guy who stabbed him actually just got 30 years a few months ago for another stabbing incident last year of a DEA informant. Paul messed around with the wrong crew that night, should still be counting his blessings.

He goes ahead of Ray Allen for me..but behind KG overall. Going back through Simmons book, can't believe he had the balls to put KG at 22. About 10 spots too high.

 

[al3xis]

I might write something up about Pierce if I have the time. Got to watch the guy throughout his career and he's went from someone I really disliked to just the opposite. Simmons pretty much covered the transformation as well as it gets in his book.

Still, though to this day him being this close to passing away..just eerie given Bias and Reggie Lewis. The guy who stabbed him actually just got 30 years a few months ago for another stabbing incident last year of a DEA informant. Paul messed around with the wrong crew that night, should still be counting his blessings.

He goes ahead of Ray Allen for me..but behind KG overall. Going back through Simmons book, can't believe he had the balls to put KG at 22. About 10 spots too high.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

I might write something up about Pierce if I have the time. Got to watch the guy throughout his career and he's went from someone I really disliked to just the opposite. Simmons pretty much covered the transformation as well as it gets in his book.

Still, though to this day him being this close to passing away..just eerie given Bias and Reggie Lewis. The guy who stabbed him actually just got 30 years a few months ago for another stabbing incident last year of a DEA informant. Paul messed around with the wrong crew that night, should still be counting his blessings.

He goes ahead of Ray Allen for me..but behind KG overall. Going back through Simmons book, can't believe he had the balls to put KG at 22. About 10 spots too high.

I got him behind Clyde Drexler.
As for Eddie Jones getting busted by Kobe. Son was serving up Stackhouse as a highschooler.
If Philly had any wits they would have traded Stack a year earlier and took Kobe and Iverson.
  

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

I might write something up about Pierce if I have the time. Got to watch the guy throughout his career and he's went from someone I really disliked to just the opposite. Simmons pretty much covered the transformation as well as it gets in his book.

Still, though to this day him being this close to passing away..just eerie given Bias and Reggie Lewis. The guy who stabbed him actually just got 30 years a few months ago for another stabbing incident last year of a DEA informant. Paul messed around with the wrong crew that night, should still be counting his blessings.

He goes ahead of Ray Allen for me..but behind KG overall. Going back through Simmons book, can't believe he had the balls to put KG at 22. About 10 spots too high.

I got him behind Clyde Drexler.
As for Eddie Jones getting busted by Kobe. Son was serving up Stackhouse as a highschooler.
If Philly had any wits they would have traded Stack a year earlier and took Kobe and Iverson.
  

 

[moneymike9]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

YES! Yes, yes, yes, and YES AGAIN. I've mentioned that if we had ANY star SG during those 3-peat titles, we would have STILL 3-peated. I've thrown out Iverson, T-Mac, even Allan Houston... and people laugh. YES, those championships were won because of Shaq and Kobe, but the word 'Kobe' could be substituted for 'star SG', and the results would have been the same. The word 'Shaq' could NOT have been substituted for 'star center'.

Sounds simple enough but here's my thing with this argument...and i say this with the utmost respect for your opinion....
Replacing skillset/roles/production may seem easy on paper....sure i'd give u that...any of those guys can probably give the Lakers 20-25 a night and the occasional 30 and 40, with about similar rebs/asts/stls etc. 

But, how do u account for the intangibles? the mental makeup of a player? You know....that part when it faces adversity, does it push through that wall, or does it bend and break? How do you account for that? Because i've seen Kobe push through that wall countless times during the threepeat. Do we know if anyone of those guys, at that point in their careers, will have the moxie to win that Game 4 in OT on the road? Or carry the team with Shaq nursing an injury in the SAS series? Maybe.......but maybe not...

Or how about the sustained desire to be GREAT and go for more, and not being complacent after one title?

You know how great Shaq is? He probably could've won at least one with any of those SGs you mentioned....but I bet it'll be awfully tough for Shaq, with his dwindling motivation, to get that 3peat if the SG he had also didn't have that desire to be great and make history like we've witnessed Kobe had. 

You make it sound so simple....yeah just replace X with Y and we'll get same results, coz they're similar players anyway...same build/position, similar skillset/stats....it sounds too much like NBA Live or NBA 2K to be honest. 

 

[moneymike9]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

YES! Yes, yes, yes, and YES AGAIN. I've mentioned that if we had ANY star SG during those 3-peat titles, we would have STILL 3-peated. I've thrown out Iverson, T-Mac, even Allan Houston... and people laugh. YES, those championships were won because of Shaq and Kobe, but the word 'Kobe' could be substituted for 'star SG', and the results would have been the same. The word 'Shaq' could NOT have been substituted for 'star center'.

Sounds simple enough but here's my thing with this argument...and i say this with the utmost respect for your opinion....
Replacing skillset/roles/production may seem easy on paper....sure i'd give u that...any of those guys can probably give the Lakers 20-25 a night and the occasional 30 and 40, with about similar rebs/asts/stls etc. 

But, how do u account for the intangibles? the mental makeup of a player? You know....that part when it faces adversity, does it push through that wall, or does it bend and break? How do you account for that? Because i've seen Kobe push through that wall countless times during the threepeat. Do we know if anyone of those guys, at that point in their careers, will have the moxie to win that Game 4 in OT on the road? Or carry the team with Shaq nursing an injury in the SAS series? Maybe.......but maybe not...

Or how about the sustained desire to be GREAT and go for more, and not being complacent after one title?

You know how great Shaq is? He probably could've won at least one with any of those SGs you mentioned....but I bet it'll be awfully tough for Shaq, with his dwindling motivation, to get that 3peat if the SG he had also didn't have that desire to be great and make history like we've witnessed Kobe had. 

You make it sound so simple....yeah just replace X with Y and we'll get same results, coz they're similar players anyway...same build/position, similar skillset/stats....it sounds too much like NBA Live or NBA 2K to be honest. 

 

[darthska]

Oh, I don't mean to make it sound like it would be easy.

The path would be extremely difficult, yeah; but a different kind of difficult.

The difficulties that were brought to the table by 'Shaq & Kobe' would be different than the difficulties in front of 'Shaq & Ray' or 'Shaq and T-Mac'. My contention is simply that those difficulties would be worked out and success would still be the end result.

But the difficulties brought by say 'Dikembe and Kobe' wouldn't amount to the same success, because they'd still have to face Shaq and whatever star SG he was with.

THis is getting way too Butterfly Effect for me.

 

[darthska]

Oh, I don't mean to make it sound like it would be easy.

The path would be extremely difficult, yeah; but a different kind of difficult.

The difficulties that were brought to the table by 'Shaq & Kobe' would be different than the difficulties in front of 'Shaq & Ray' or 'Shaq and T-Mac'. My contention is simply that those difficulties would be worked out and success would still be the end result.

But the difficulties brought by say 'Dikembe and Kobe' wouldn't amount to the same success, because they'd still have to face Shaq and whatever star SG he was with.

THis is getting way too Butterfly Effect for me.

 

[N41D]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

I might write something up about Pierce if I have the time. Got to watch the guy throughout his career and he's went from someone I really disliked to just the opposite. Simmons pretty much covered the transformation as well as it gets in his book.

Still, though to this day him being this close to passing away..just eerie given Bias and Reggie Lewis. The guy who stabbed him actually just got 30 years a few months ago for another stabbing incident last year of a DEA informant. Paul messed around with the wrong crew that night, should still be counting his blessings.

He goes ahead of Ray Allen for me..but behind KG overall. Going back through Simmons book, can't believe he had the balls to put KG at 22. About 10 spots too high.

I'm with you on Pierce... I love the dude.

CP... I'm working on the Dirk write up... I wanna make sure I've got everything covered before I post it so it's gonna take a couple days.

 

[N41D]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

I might write something up about Pierce if I have the time. Got to watch the guy throughout his career and he's went from someone I really disliked to just the opposite. Simmons pretty much covered the transformation as well as it gets in his book.

Still, though to this day him being this close to passing away..just eerie given Bias and Reggie Lewis. The guy who stabbed him actually just got 30 years a few months ago for another stabbing incident last year of a DEA informant. Paul messed around with the wrong crew that night, should still be counting his blessings.

He goes ahead of Ray Allen for me..but behind KG overall. Going back through Simmons book, can't believe he had the balls to put KG at 22. About 10 spots too high.

I'm with you on Pierce... I love the dude.

CP... I'm working on the Dirk write up... I wanna make sure I've got everything covered before I post it so it's gonna take a couple days.

 

[moe fab uafa]

Originally Posted by gangsta207therevolution

Kobe's Legacy.
He could drive the car or he could ride shotgun and navigate.
By the way Horry and Fisher are back seat drivers...

.
      

I love this quote.

 

[moe fab uafa]

Originally Posted by gangsta207therevolution

Kobe's Legacy.
He could drive the car or he could ride shotgun and navigate.
By the way Horry and Fisher are back seat drivers...

.
      

I love this quote.