NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[darthska]

Gotta chime in on Kidd, and I'm gonna do it by responding to JapanAir's words.

JapanAir21:

---

I want to talk about Kidd too.

10 years from now, we might look back on this Playoff run and say, "Ehh, Kidd was just along for the ride like Gary Payton was."

No, definitely not. Kidd didn't have the points this year to make him stand out, and he didn't have double-digit dimes every game, but what he did was what every single person in the world, including most Mavericks fans, myself included, though he lost. His biggest value to this team was as a defender. Turning back the clock, Kidd faced superstars ranging from Roy, Russell Westbrook, Kobe, Durant, Wade, and even LeBron. Did he ever shut down these guys for complete games? No, not really, but he got all of these guys out of their groove at some time in the game.

During this run, he wouldn't give up. He wouldn't ever admit defeat and let his man go off. Now I won't get blinded by the championship and say he was the primary defender on Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Wade and Lebron ALL the time. He wasn't, it was a team effort with help from DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion. But, with that said, when it mattered most, Kidd was getting the picks, he was the guy staying in front of some of the fastest guys in the L, he was staying in front of one of the strongest men in the L like LeBron, he was doing all he could in crunch time to make sure that these guys couldn't get off.

His perseverance is what allowed us to come back so many games. I don't know the number exactly, but the Mavericks came back from double-digit deficits countless times during these Playoffs. It was a run that was magical, one-of-a-kind, and how did they all begin? With stops on the defensive end. We tightened up, switched to the zone, did whatever we could, and Jason Kidd was right there at the forefront to lead us. You would have told me prior to the Playoffs that Jason Kidd was our best crunch-time defender I would've giggled, and the rest of the basketball world would have called you an idiot. But you know what? In the 2011 NBA Playoffs? He sure as hell did.

With all this said, you have to approach the question again of where does he belong? Among all the other players in the League, I find it hard to rank PGs unless their in their own class. Magic is obviously the one exception, but it's hard for me personally to put a label on John Stockton and say where he ranks all-time compared to other greats like Hakeem, Kareem, or Kobe. Obviously below all of them, but it's just a way to show how hard it is to compare PGs to every other position. In regards to Jason Kidd and where he ranks among other PGs? It's really hard for me to put him above guys like Stockton, O, and Isiah, but he's right there. He has the leadership of Isiah Thomas. He has the versatility of the Big O, and he has the longevity of John Stockton. The NBA will lose a great talent when this man retires. Kidd never had the scoring capacity that other great PGs had, and that's what will keep him from surpassing O and Isiah, but, I think being right there with them, in a 3A, 3B, 3C kind of ranking, isn't out of the question at all. Jason Kidd is THE role model of those who can persevere. Jason Kidd was one of the first players to really succeed after having microfracture surgery.

He's an old man, but this just proves that an old dog can learn new tricks (Or in this case, use tricks once lost).
As far as ranking goes, for me... FOR ME... it's Magic, then Kidd. Yes, I'm someone who uses the championships of central figures as a huge credit to that individual. So the fact that Stockton and Nash don't have one and now Kidd does, yes, that means something to me (actually, Nash hasn't even BEEN in the Finals, but that's for another discussion).

Big O? Yes, era counts for me, too. The game is harder today.

Isiah? This one just boils down to personal preference. No, Kidd is nowhere near the scorer Isiah was, and Kidd has never been a prolific scorer... BUT THAT'S WHAT I WANT FROM MY PG. That's EXACTLY what I want! I want a PG who thinks PASS FIRST... and if that isn't gonna work... FIND ANOTHER PASS... and if that isn't gonna work... SCORE.

Jason Kidd is the best 'basketball quarterback' since Magic, in my opinion. Magic WAS a better scorer, obviously, but that's why he COLLECTED championships (well, that and the fact that he played w/ 2 other Finals MVPs, and Kidd just now played w/ his 1st).

AND HOW DID YOU NOT MENTION TRIPLE DOUBLES?! People throwing out Big O and Magic in this Kidd discussion... and there are your 3 all time triple double leaders. Playoffs? It's Magic on top and Kidd in 2nd.

My main thing about having Magic and Kidd as 1-2 on my list is how they did what they did, which was completely opposite.
- Magic was fun, but highly competitive. He KNEW basketball, and loved to keep everyone on the team involved. He was flashy, smiling, competitive, and knew how to put the ball in the basket; very versatile.
- Kidd, on the other hand, isn't versatile at all. If he's on the floor, he's at the 1. Not the 2 or 3 or 3, like Magic sometimes did. He's the PG, period. There's a famous quote "Do one thing, and do it well", and that's Kidd. He's not flashy; he has thrown some crazy passes in his day, but I'd bet everything that if we were in his head, we'd see that the reason he threw that pass would be because he honestly thought that was the best thing to do right then, like he didn't even think about it. He's very calm and poised, hardly ever frowning or smiling. He knows basketball; he sees passing lanes to HIT on the offensive end and EXPLOIT on the defensive end better than anyone since Magic (and better than Magic on the defensive end), and he knows the trends of both his players and his defenders better than anyone (and again, better than Magic when it comes to tracking stats of his opponents).

Even in the Olympics, when he was on the court, it was all business. He'd throw a few lobs to people that need them, but for the most part, it was all business now, fun and celebration when we're done; no, not done with the game, but the tournament.

And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.

1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0
2000 Olympics: 8-0
2002 World Championship: injured
2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0
2004 Olympics: injured
2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0
2008 Olympics: 8-0

He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.

 

[CP1708]

Ska, what would you then call Stockton in terms of "QB" at the PG position?  You still place Kidd above Stockton, even though he was certainly a pass first PG? 

 

[CP1708]

Ska, what would you then call Stockton in terms of "QB" at the PG position?  You still place Kidd above Stockton, even though he was certainly a pass first PG? 

 

[japanair21]

I thought mentioning Big O WAS mentioning triple-doubles,

No offense to Kidd, but O IS Mr. Triple Double.

I was thinking of putting Kidd higher, but I love Stockton and Isiah way too much.

I definitely get where you're coming from, getting exactly what you want out of your PG position, it's just too bad for most of his career, he didn't have the right pieces around him to thrive. Instead he had Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter, Mikki Moore, Josh Boone, Lucious Harris, and guys like that.

 

[japanair21]

I thought mentioning Big O WAS mentioning triple-doubles,

No offense to Kidd, but O IS Mr. Triple Double.

I was thinking of putting Kidd higher, but I love Stockton and Isiah way too much.

I definitely get where you're coming from, getting exactly what you want out of your PG position, it's just too bad for most of his career, he didn't have the right pieces around him to thrive. Instead he had Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter, Mikki Moore, Josh Boone, Lucious Harris, and guys like that.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.

1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0
2000 Olympics: 8-0
2002 World Championship: injured
2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0
2004 Olympics: injured
2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0
2008 Olympics: 8-0

He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.

Wow, I'ma guy that thinks international play is always a big thing cause it often showcases all the best guys on a court and it establishes a pecking order.  Going back to '08 for instance maybe we should have read into it more when Wade was the best player, Kobe was the closer and Bron kind of fell by the way sider.  Butgoing back to that team Kidd was the leader in many ways, while everyone respected Kobe and his greatness/will, Kidd was the guy bridging the two groups.  You can see LeBron/Wade have utmost respect for Kidd.  Everyone of his peers do.  That means something.  I don't like Kidd cause I hated those Nets squad and was a Payton guy but to me he is the best post-magic PG.  Stockton played in a weak PG era and played with one of the most dominant big men ever.  Until playin with Dirk the best guy Kidd played with was Wince Carter

.

I'd prolly go post-Magic PG's:
Kidd
Stockton
Payton
Nash

CP3 & D.Will both have a solid chance to catch those guys though and ascend to the top of the charts.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.

1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0
2000 Olympics: 8-0
2002 World Championship: injured
2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0
2004 Olympics: injured
2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0
2008 Olympics: 8-0

He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.

Wow, I'ma guy that thinks international play is always a big thing cause it often showcases all the best guys on a court and it establishes a pecking order.  Going back to '08 for instance maybe we should have read into it more when Wade was the best player, Kobe was the closer and Bron kind of fell by the way sider.  Butgoing back to that team Kidd was the leader in many ways, while everyone respected Kobe and his greatness/will, Kidd was the guy bridging the two groups.  You can see LeBron/Wade have utmost respect for Kidd.  Everyone of his peers do.  That means something.  I don't like Kidd cause I hated those Nets squad and was a Payton guy but to me he is the best post-magic PG.  Stockton played in a weak PG era and played with one of the most dominant big men ever.  Until playin with Dirk the best guy Kidd played with was Wince Carter

.

I'd prolly go post-Magic PG's:
Kidd
Stockton
Payton
Nash

CP3 & D.Will both have a solid chance to catch those guys though and ascend to the top of the charts.

 

[darthska]

JapanAir21:

---

I thought mentioning Big O WAS mentioning triple-doubles,

No offense to Kidd, but O IS Mr. Triple Double.
No offense to Big O personally, but why do his triple doubles drop so dramatically from reg. seaon to playoffs?

TOTAL:
#1. 189: Big O
#2. 168: Magic
#3. 116: Kidd
#4. 87: Wilt
#5. 69: Larry

REG. SEASON
#1. 181: Big O
#2. 138: Magic
#3. 105: Kidd
#4. 78: Wilt
#5. 59: Larry

PLAYOFFS
#1. 30: Magic
#2. 11: Kidd
#3. 10: Larry
#4. 9: Wilt
#5. 8: Big O

From 181 in the regular season to SINGLE DIGITS in the playoffs?! The suggests to me that possibly he was beasting on the scrubs he was playing during the season, but when he was playing the best of the best, those triple doubles don't exactly fly off his fingertips. The huge disparity in Wilt's numbers adds more credibility to that suggestion; from 78 to 9?

 

[darthska]

JapanAir21:

---

I thought mentioning Big O WAS mentioning triple-doubles,

No offense to Kidd, but O IS Mr. Triple Double.
No offense to Big O personally, but why do his triple doubles drop so dramatically from reg. seaon to playoffs?

TOTAL:
#1. 189: Big O
#2. 168: Magic
#3. 116: Kidd
#4. 87: Wilt
#5. 69: Larry

REG. SEASON
#1. 181: Big O
#2. 138: Magic
#3. 105: Kidd
#4. 78: Wilt
#5. 59: Larry

PLAYOFFS
#1. 30: Magic
#2. 11: Kidd
#3. 10: Larry
#4. 9: Wilt
#5. 8: Big O

From 181 in the regular season to SINGLE DIGITS in the playoffs?! The suggests to me that possibly he was beasting on the scrubs he was playing during the season, but when he was playing the best of the best, those triple doubles don't exactly fly off his fingertips. The huge disparity in Wilt's numbers adds more credibility to that suggestion; from 78 to 9?

 

[essential1]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Btw the 3rd title they both spazzed..

Shaq averaged 36ppg... Kobe averaged 26.8 PPG..

 
I hear ya champ, and not to take credit away from Kobe cause he definitely did his thing, but as you clearly illustrated Shaq was #1 and Kobe was a distant 2nd.


No you are absolutely taking credit away from him..  Scoring 26.8 averaging above 50% from the field, and above 50% from 3 is MVP numbers.. Go through finals history and you will see he performed better than numerous finals MVP's...

Stop being salty and give the man his credit... Kobe was equally as important to the Lakers winning 3 in a row as Shaq..

 

[essential1]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Btw the 3rd title they both spazzed..

Shaq averaged 36ppg... Kobe averaged 26.8 PPG..

 
I hear ya champ, and not to take credit away from Kobe cause he definitely did his thing, but as you clearly illustrated Shaq was #1 and Kobe was a distant 2nd.


No you are absolutely taking credit away from him..  Scoring 26.8 averaging above 50% from the field, and above 50% from 3 is MVP numbers.. Go through finals history and you will see he performed better than numerous finals MVP's...

Stop being salty and give the man his credit... Kobe was equally as important to the Lakers winning 3 in a row as Shaq..

 

[CP1708]

I'll start my own personal takes with Shaq. 

One of the greatest entertainers/personalities to ever play the game of basketball.  He was born to be in front of an audience, but as great as he was playin to crowds, he was equal to that on the basketball court.  His early years in Orlando looked like he would form a team that would be elite for over a decade.  Him, Penny, Horace, Scott, Nick Anderson just looked like they were going to be impossible to stop.  They could space you, beat you down low, play defense, run, they could do anything.  The strange thing to me was, they always seemed to get swept.  Almost like once you took a game from them, they sort of lost belief in themselves.  At the time, I chalked that up to them being young.  Maybe that was it.  But then Shaq left and went to LA, and it happened there too.  Again, a young team, but yet again, Utah and San Antonio both swept them early on.  Of course, that was before Phil. 

Phil found a way to motivate Shaq like no other coach had.  Of course Shaq was also now 27-28 years old, it may have been easier to get thru to him at that time in his career than if Phil coached him at 23-24. 
Shaq's runs in LA were nothing short of ridiculous.  In 2000 in their first real true playoff run, they struggled out of the gate learning how to win.  They were taken to the max in both the first round, and the third round by Sacramento and Portland respectively, and Indiana proved tougher than they looked by taking LA to 6.  Shaq however was not slowed down much.  He went for 30, 15 and 3 with 2.5 blocks a game.  He also played 43 minutes a game, the most of his career.  This was Shaq's peak clearly.  Amazingly the next year they played 7 less playoff games, his totals?  30, 15, and 3, with 2 blocks a game..........

  He shot 56 and 55 percent as well.  He was a flat out beast. 
Having got his back to back titles, complacency had set in with Shaq.  It would prove to be the only thing that could stop him.  He took even more time off in 2002, and the beginning of the end of his era had started.  The Lakers were able to regroup and get in sync enough to win the title again to get a 3 peat and join the Bulls 50's Lakers and the 60's Celtics as the only teams to do so. 
Him winning the 3 titles and the last 2 by taking time off each season started to wear on the team during the early parts of regular seasons however.  This caused more and more issues and eventually players and coaches were taking sides.  It was not pretty.  He played 67 games 3 years straight, basically timing off 15 games extra a year. 

  That can't be a damn coincidence.  LA was worn down going for a 4th title, and the Spurs were able to knock them off only after Horry's 3 went in and out in game 5 of the second round that year.  It deflated the team, they never recovered, the series and the run was over. 
Payton and Malone came in the following year to help them win again, and while they made the finals, they had a ton of locker room issues, and injury issues that tore the team apart.  It was something that should not have happened, and it damn sure hurt a chance for some real legacy stuff to go on.  We're talkin MEGA legacy potential.  6-7 titles type legacy.  But once a 100% united Detroit team embarrassed LA, Shaq was ready to move on. 
He went to his 3rd team in the NBA, and no suprise, his 3rd elite SG to boot.  His first year in Miami he played more games, but less minutes to reduce the wear and tear on him.  A wise move.  They had a shot in 05 at a title, but Wade was injured and Shaq wasn't enough anymore to carry a team like that. 
The next year however, Wade was healthy and they were able to come back from an 0-2 defecit and win Shaq his 4th ring.  The next year, Shaq was swept in the first round.  (I will never get the sweep thing that followed Shaq's career, never)
Shaq finished out his career movin around here and there to try and win 1 more title, but wasn't able to stay healthy enough to help out. 
At the end of the day, he has top 5 all around numbers both regular and post season.  His free throw shooting was so poor, that he could EASILY be the number 1 or 2 scorer all time if he hit closer to 75% of his freebies.  The guy missed 1,100 free throws in the playoffs alone.  And he was only 700 points away from most playoff points all time.  Few extra games instead of sweeps and a few more made free throws and that record could have been his. 

At his peak, nobody was seein Shaq's overall production.  No one.  Not even Duncan.  As I said in my beginning statements on these players, Duncan will have squeezed every ounce of his life into his career, while Shaq will have saved about a quarter tank of gas.  Shaq COULD have played more games, more minutes, made more free throws, etc etc, had he, his career and numbers would be Kareem like, and I'm not joking.  But Shaq had too much fun to want to die for basketball.  There's no shame in that, he's had a great career, but I only wish I could have seen what his numbers would look like if he did go all in. 

One last note, many athletes are decent guys, give to charity, etc etc.  Shaq was different.  He was even better with kids/people than he was with basketball.  We've all seen and heard stories about him giving gifts to people, buying this and that, dropping off toys on Christmas, all kinds of stuff, but Shaq is the real deal.  Recently a small town out near my way ran a story of a kid that had cancer as a teen, he's now like 25 I think, and whenever Shaq is in Portland to play the Blazers, he takes that kid out to dinner.  He's bought him a car, they talk thru the season via text or phone calls, Shaq even plans on being the best man at the kids wedding someday.  Just a random kid from a city no where near any place Shaq has ever lived.  The guy has done weird/silly stuff in his day, he's no angel, but when it comes to giving and charity and what not, he's elite as they come.  To me, this part belongs in his legacy just as much as his stats do. 

I personally have him #7 all time, behind Bird, and ahead of Duncan. 

 

[CP1708]

I'll start my own personal takes with Shaq. 

One of the greatest entertainers/personalities to ever play the game of basketball.  He was born to be in front of an audience, but as great as he was playin to crowds, he was equal to that on the basketball court.  His early years in Orlando looked like he would form a team that would be elite for over a decade.  Him, Penny, Horace, Scott, Nick Anderson just looked like they were going to be impossible to stop.  They could space you, beat you down low, play defense, run, they could do anything.  The strange thing to me was, they always seemed to get swept.  Almost like once you took a game from them, they sort of lost belief in themselves.  At the time, I chalked that up to them being young.  Maybe that was it.  But then Shaq left and went to LA, and it happened there too.  Again, a young team, but yet again, Utah and San Antonio both swept them early on.  Of course, that was before Phil. 

Phil found a way to motivate Shaq like no other coach had.  Of course Shaq was also now 27-28 years old, it may have been easier to get thru to him at that time in his career than if Phil coached him at 23-24. 
Shaq's runs in LA were nothing short of ridiculous.  In 2000 in their first real true playoff run, they struggled out of the gate learning how to win.  They were taken to the max in both the first round, and the third round by Sacramento and Portland respectively, and Indiana proved tougher than they looked by taking LA to 6.  Shaq however was not slowed down much.  He went for 30, 15 and 3 with 2.5 blocks a game.  He also played 43 minutes a game, the most of his career.  This was Shaq's peak clearly.  Amazingly the next year they played 7 less playoff games, his totals?  30, 15, and 3, with 2 blocks a game..........

  He shot 56 and 55 percent as well.  He was a flat out beast. 
Having got his back to back titles, complacency had set in with Shaq.  It would prove to be the only thing that could stop him.  He took even more time off in 2002, and the beginning of the end of his era had started.  The Lakers were able to regroup and get in sync enough to win the title again to get a 3 peat and join the Bulls 50's Lakers and the 60's Celtics as the only teams to do so. 
Him winning the 3 titles and the last 2 by taking time off each season started to wear on the team during the early parts of regular seasons however.  This caused more and more issues and eventually players and coaches were taking sides.  It was not pretty.  He played 67 games 3 years straight, basically timing off 15 games extra a year. 

  That can't be a damn coincidence.  LA was worn down going for a 4th title, and the Spurs were able to knock them off only after Horry's 3 went in and out in game 5 of the second round that year.  It deflated the team, they never recovered, the series and the run was over. 
Payton and Malone came in the following year to help them win again, and while they made the finals, they had a ton of locker room issues, and injury issues that tore the team apart.  It was something that should not have happened, and it damn sure hurt a chance for some real legacy stuff to go on.  We're talkin MEGA legacy potential.  6-7 titles type legacy.  But once a 100% united Detroit team embarrassed LA, Shaq was ready to move on. 
He went to his 3rd team in the NBA, and no suprise, his 3rd elite SG to boot.  His first year in Miami he played more games, but less minutes to reduce the wear and tear on him.  A wise move.  They had a shot in 05 at a title, but Wade was injured and Shaq wasn't enough anymore to carry a team like that. 
The next year however, Wade was healthy and they were able to come back from an 0-2 defecit and win Shaq his 4th ring.  The next year, Shaq was swept in the first round.  (I will never get the sweep thing that followed Shaq's career, never)
Shaq finished out his career movin around here and there to try and win 1 more title, but wasn't able to stay healthy enough to help out. 
At the end of the day, he has top 5 all around numbers both regular and post season.  His free throw shooting was so poor, that he could EASILY be the number 1 or 2 scorer all time if he hit closer to 75% of his freebies.  The guy missed 1,100 free throws in the playoffs alone.  And he was only 700 points away from most playoff points all time.  Few extra games instead of sweeps and a few more made free throws and that record could have been his. 

At his peak, nobody was seein Shaq's overall production.  No one.  Not even Duncan.  As I said in my beginning statements on these players, Duncan will have squeezed every ounce of his life into his career, while Shaq will have saved about a quarter tank of gas.  Shaq COULD have played more games, more minutes, made more free throws, etc etc, had he, his career and numbers would be Kareem like, and I'm not joking.  But Shaq had too much fun to want to die for basketball.  There's no shame in that, he's had a great career, but I only wish I could have seen what his numbers would look like if he did go all in. 

One last note, many athletes are decent guys, give to charity, etc etc.  Shaq was different.  He was even better with kids/people than he was with basketball.  We've all seen and heard stories about him giving gifts to people, buying this and that, dropping off toys on Christmas, all kinds of stuff, but Shaq is the real deal.  Recently a small town out near my way ran a story of a kid that had cancer as a teen, he's now like 25 I think, and whenever Shaq is in Portland to play the Blazers, he takes that kid out to dinner.  He's bought him a car, they talk thru the season via text or phone calls, Shaq even plans on being the best man at the kids wedding someday.  Just a random kid from a city no where near any place Shaq has ever lived.  The guy has done weird/silly stuff in his day, he's no angel, but when it comes to giving and charity and what not, he's elite as they come.  To me, this part belongs in his legacy just as much as his stats do. 

I personally have him #7 all time, behind Bird, and ahead of Duncan. 

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.

I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.

I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.

Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.

If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.

 

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.

I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.

I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.

Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.

If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.

 

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.

I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.

I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.

Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.

If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.

 

Ok, this post right here is excellent and exactly what I want. 

I don't mean that I agree and J-Kidd is a bum, no, but I have a post from JA, and a post from Ska both PRO Kidd, now I can use that an "against" argument from a person who is not a big Kidd fan, merely a basketball fan.  It gives all sides of a debate on what these guys true legacies are.  This will be copied under his resume along with JA and SKA's. 
  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.

I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.

I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.

Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.

If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.

 

Ok, this post right here is excellent and exactly what I want. 

I don't mean that I agree and J-Kidd is a bum, no, but I have a post from JA, and a post from Ska both PRO Kidd, now I can use that an "against" argument from a person who is not a big Kidd fan, merely a basketball fan.  It gives all sides of a debate on what these guys true legacies are.  This will be copied under his resume along with JA and SKA's. 
  

 

[darthska]

Osh: I love when people point to Kidd's 'terrible' shooting.

Nash is considered a GREAT shooter, right? Among the all time best shooting PGs ever, no?

career FG% for Nash: 48.9

career FG% for Kidd: 40

The difference from GREAT to TERRIBLE is 9%? Out of 100 shots, one guy makes 49 and the next makes 40, and the first gets called GREAT while the second gets called TERRIBLE?!

Something about that doesn't add up; you figure out what. Either Nash isn't a great shooter or Kidd isn't a terrible one.

(for the record: Isiah is a career 45%, Stockton tops all that I've mentioned so far w/ 51%. But topping everyone is the greatest PG ever: Magic, @ 52%

)

 

[darthska]

Osh: I love when people point to Kidd's 'terrible' shooting.

Nash is considered a GREAT shooter, right? Among the all time best shooting PGs ever, no?

career FG% for Nash: 48.9

career FG% for Kidd: 40

The difference from GREAT to TERRIBLE is 9%? Out of 100 shots, one guy makes 49 and the next makes 40, and the first gets called GREAT while the second gets called TERRIBLE?!

Something about that doesn't add up; you figure out what. Either Nash isn't a great shooter or Kidd isn't a terrible one.

(for the record: Isiah is a career 45%, Stockton tops all that I've mentioned so far w/ 51%. But topping everyone is the greatest PG ever: Magic, @ 52%

)

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Cmon Ska the difference between the Denver (best offense this year) and the Milwaukee (worst offense) is 5% of FG%. 9% Its HUGE.

Basketball is a game of managing possessions, if it takes you 5 more possessions to score the same amount of points it makes life is a lot more difficult. It's like in baseball if one team had 3 outs and you only get 2, you are going to score ALOT less runs.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Cmon Ska the difference between the Denver (best offense this year) and the Milwaukee (worst offense) is 5% of FG%. 9% Its HUGE.

Basketball is a game of managing possessions, if it takes you 5 more possessions to score the same amount of points it makes life is a lot more difficult. It's like in baseball if one team had 3 outs and you only get 2, you are going to score ALOT less runs.

 

[al3xis]

Looking back at the numbers, Shaq's worst Finals game out of 15 statistically in the 3peat was a 29/13 and 5 block game. 

.

43/19
40/24
33/13
36/21
35/11
41/12

44/20
28/20 + 9 blocks and 8 assists
30/12
34/14
29/13

36/16
40/12
35/11
34/10

 

[xsalvioutlawx]

Originally Posted by Essential1

Btw the 3rd title they both spazzed..

Shaq averaged 36ppg... Kobe averaged 26.8 PPG.. They both straight up dismantled the Nets... Kobe put up Finals MVP numbers as the number 2 option.. While Shaq put up the most ridiculous numbers.. (So Kobe doesn't deserve the title?)

stop trying to save face for people who shrink under pressure... Shaq would not have 3 peated without Kobe.. And Likewise..  He wasn't John Salley.. He was Kobe Bryant who won games with clutch performances all 3 years..

Yep. Kobe was the MVP against the Spurs, arguably the real finals and always stepped up to close out games when Shaq was in foul trouble.

You mentioned the third title....During the second title Kobe averaged 28.5 PPG during the regular season and 29.4 PPG during the playoffs at 22 years of age playing with Shaq in his prime.

Yet he was a distant second behind Shaq according to some people. 

  
Kobe's years during the 3-Peat will always be underrated.

 

[al3xis]

Looking back at the numbers, Shaq's worst Finals game out of 15 statistically in the 3peat was a 29/13 and 5 block game. 

.

43/19
40/24
33/13
36/21
35/11
41/12

44/20
28/20 + 9 blocks and 8 assists
30/12
34/14
29/13

36/16
40/12
35/11
34/10

 

[xsalvioutlawx]

Originally Posted by Essential1

Btw the 3rd title they both spazzed..

Shaq averaged 36ppg... Kobe averaged 26.8 PPG.. They both straight up dismantled the Nets... Kobe put up Finals MVP numbers as the number 2 option.. While Shaq put up the most ridiculous numbers.. (So Kobe doesn't deserve the title?)

stop trying to save face for people who shrink under pressure... Shaq would not have 3 peated without Kobe.. And Likewise..  He wasn't John Salley.. He was Kobe Bryant who won games with clutch performances all 3 years..

Yep. Kobe was the MVP against the Spurs, arguably the real finals and always stepped up to close out games when Shaq was in foul trouble.

You mentioned the third title....During the second title Kobe averaged 28.5 PPG during the regular season and 29.4 PPG during the playoffs at 22 years of age playing with Shaq in his prime.

Yet he was a distant second behind Shaq according to some people. 

  
Kobe's years during the 3-Peat will always be underrated.