NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[noskey]

Cant believe I've never seen this thread until today.

Regarding Duncan, I had a long (for NT) response typed out then accidentally clicked out of the tab

Anyways, long story short: his failure to reach back to back Finals shouldnt be a knock against him, it should show his, and his teams, resilience to not just keep making it back to that spot, but win every time. Winning 4 titles over 8 years is very impressive, as they're also the only team since MJ's to do anything like that. Not to mention, it was the Spurs who stopped both the Nets and Pistons from winning in their 2nd Finals attempts. Also, who knows what would have happened if Derek Fisher's shot was discounted like it should have been in '04.

Just my take on it. Also my bad if someone's already brought this up, I havent read through more than 1 page.

 

[deepinthajeep]

The following is a TOP 5 evaluation of PGs that I've seen play. No Big O, Cousy, Lenny Wilkins, ect.

I've assigned a point system to my rankings, thus pseudo-justifying my list w/ numbers.

My point system is as follows:

Ring - 2 pts.
NBA MVP - 2 pts.
Finals MVP - 2 pts.
All NBA 1st Team - 1 pt.
All NBA Defensive 1st Team - .5 pt.
NBA All Star - .5 pt.
NBA Assist Record(s) (career and season only) - 2 pts.
NBA Steals Record(s) (career and season only) - 2 pts.

all ties will be settled by Olympic Gold Metals


1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson

• 5 NBA Championships (10)
• 3 NBA MVP Awards (6)
• 9 NBA All 1st Team (9)
• 12 NBA All-Star (6)
• RECORD: 11.2 Highest Avg. Assists per game, Career (2)

 Total = 33


2. John Stockton

• 2 NBA All 1st Team (2)
  
• 10 NBA All-Star (5)
• RECORD: 14.5 - Highest Assists per Game Avg.
  
• RECORD: 1164 - Most Assists in a Season
  
• RECORD: 15,806 - Most Career Assists
  
• RECORD: 3,265 - Most Career Steals
  
• RECORD: 9 - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Assists (10)

 Total = 17


3. Isiah Thomas*

• 2 NBA Championships (4)
• 3 NBA All 1st Team (3)
• NBA Finals MVP (2)
  
• 12 NBA All Star (6)

 Total: 15


4. Jason Kidd

• NBA Championship (2)
• 5 NBA All 1st Team (5)
  
• 10 NBA All-Star (5)
• 4 NBA All Defensive 1st Team (2)

 Total = 14


5. Steve Nash

• 2 NBA MVP Awards (4)
• 3 NBA All 1st Team (3)
• 7 NBA All-Star (3.5)

 Total = 10.5


That's my top 5 NBA PG List of All-Times.

Thoughts?





*Hatred aside

 

[deepinthajeep]

The following is a TOP 5 evaluation of PGs that I've seen play. No Big O, Cousy, Lenny Wilkins, ect.

I've assigned a point system to my rankings, thus pseudo-justifying my list w/ numbers.

My point system is as follows:

Ring - 2 pts.
NBA MVP - 2 pts.
Finals MVP - 2 pts.
All NBA 1st Team - 1 pt.
All NBA Defensive 1st Team - .5 pt.
NBA All Star - .5 pt.
NBA Assist Record(s) (career and season only) - 2 pts.
NBA Steals Record(s) (career and season only) - 2 pts.

all ties will be settled by Olympic Gold Metals


1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson

• 5 NBA Championships (10)
• 3 NBA MVP Awards (6)
• 9 NBA All 1st Team (9)
• 12 NBA All-Star (6)
• RECORD: 11.2 Highest Avg. Assists per game, Career (2)

 Total = 33


2. John Stockton

• 2 NBA All 1st Team (2)
  
• 10 NBA All-Star (5)
• RECORD: 14.5 - Highest Assists per Game Avg.
  
• RECORD: 1164 - Most Assists in a Season
  
• RECORD: 15,806 - Most Career Assists
  
• RECORD: 3,265 - Most Career Steals
  
• RECORD: 9 - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Assists (10)

 Total = 17


3. Isiah Thomas*

• 2 NBA Championships (4)
• 3 NBA All 1st Team (3)
• NBA Finals MVP (2)
  
• 12 NBA All Star (6)

 Total: 15


4. Jason Kidd

• NBA Championship (2)
• 5 NBA All 1st Team (5)
  
• 10 NBA All-Star (5)
• 4 NBA All Defensive 1st Team (2)

 Total = 14


5. Steve Nash

• 2 NBA MVP Awards (4)
• 3 NBA All 1st Team (3)
• 7 NBA All-Star (3.5)

 Total = 10.5


That's my top 5 NBA PG List of All-Times.

Thoughts?





*Hatred aside

 

[deepinthajeep]

Originally Posted by HANNSUM

Originally Posted by deepinthajeep

^ I think you must value the ring more than the Finals MVP, because w/ those numbers alone...they're all tied.

Kobe - 5 rings + 2 Finals MVP = 7
Shaq/TD - 4 Rings + 3 Finals MVP = 7

tie-breaker goes to Kobe (rings).

the worst analysis. no

How so?

 

[deepinthajeep]

Originally Posted by HANNSUM

Originally Posted by deepinthajeep

^ I think you must value the ring more than the Finals MVP, because w/ those numbers alone...they're all tied.

Kobe - 5 rings + 2 Finals MVP = 7
Shaq/TD - 4 Rings + 3 Finals MVP = 7

tie-breaker goes to Kobe (rings).

the worst analysis. no

How so?

 

[moneymike9]

Jason Kidd
People knock the man's ability to score, and rightfully so...we all know that the man was never a natural "score-first" PG but when the man needed to score, he did score. His 2-year playoff runs with the Nets when they made the Finals (I'd say his "prime" years): 19.6 8.2 9.1 and 20.1 7.7 8.2. 

Now the scoring numbers may not pop-out to anyone, but if you actually watched them play back then, his ability to score at the most crucial moments were as big as reason as anything in carrying the Nets to the Finals. Think about it, those PPG and APG numbers are what most "scoring PGs" would probably be putting up too, or at the very least, PGs who we think of as better scorers that JKidd.

Oh and another sidenote, i remember people getting giddy about Rajon Rondo almost averaging a triple double in a series/playoff run a 2 years ago...well JKidd actually did this already: 14.6 10.6 10.6 in 2006-2007 i believe it was.

 

[moneymike9]

Jason Kidd
People knock the man's ability to score, and rightfully so...we all know that the man was never a natural "score-first" PG but when the man needed to score, he did score. His 2-year playoff runs with the Nets when they made the Finals (I'd say his "prime" years): 19.6 8.2 9.1 and 20.1 7.7 8.2. 

Now the scoring numbers may not pop-out to anyone, but if you actually watched them play back then, his ability to score at the most crucial moments were as big as reason as anything in carrying the Nets to the Finals. Think about it, those PPG and APG numbers are what most "scoring PGs" would probably be putting up too, or at the very least, PGs who we think of as better scorers that JKidd.

Oh and another sidenote, i remember people getting giddy about Rajon Rondo almost averaging a triple double in a series/playoff run a 2 years ago...well JKidd actually did this already: 14.6 10.6 10.6 in 2006-2007 i believe it was.

 

[651akathepaul]

If there is one guy we don't need to discuss, it's Duncan. We should all know where he stands. It's funny though, that for being the greatest ever at his position, Timmy did it relatively quiet compared to his peers. We always argue about the Kobe's, Lebron's, Wade's, and Jordan's. There's just nothing sexy about being the best PF ever, especially the way TD did it. Hopefully as time goes on, people know just how good he was, given that he won't be involved heavily into these arguments.

There was a time when I was hoping for everything that KG would have a 3 or 4 year Championship rampage so he could surface back into the argument of greatest forward of this era, let alone all time, but Duncan just has that spot on lock.

Next...

 

[651akathepaul]

If there is one guy we don't need to discuss, it's Duncan. We should all know where he stands. It's funny though, that for being the greatest ever at his position, Timmy did it relatively quiet compared to his peers. We always argue about the Kobe's, Lebron's, Wade's, and Jordan's. There's just nothing sexy about being the best PF ever, especially the way TD did it. Hopefully as time goes on, people know just how good he was, given that he won't be involved heavily into these arguments.

There was a time when I was hoping for everything that KG would have a 3 or 4 year Championship rampage so he could surface back into the argument of greatest forward of this era, let alone all time, but Duncan just has that spot on lock.

Next...

 

[deepinthajeep]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

If there is one guy we don't need to discuss, it's Duncan. We should all know where he stands. It's funny though, that for being the greatest ever at his position, Timmy did it relatively quiet compared to his peers. We always argue about the Kobe's, Lebron's, Wade's, and Jordan's. There's just nothing sexy about being the best PF ever, especially the way TD did it. Hopefully as time goes on, people know just how good he was, given that he won't be involved heavily into these arguments.

There was a time when I was hoping for everything that KG would have a 3 or 4 year Championship rampage so he could surface back into the argument of greatest forward of this era, let alone all time, but Duncan just has that spot on lock.

Next...

Perfectly said.

 

[deepinthajeep]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

If there is one guy we don't need to discuss, it's Duncan. We should all know where he stands. It's funny though, that for being the greatest ever at his position, Timmy did it relatively quiet compared to his peers. We always argue about the Kobe's, Lebron's, Wade's, and Jordan's. There's just nothing sexy about being the best PF ever, especially the way TD did it. Hopefully as time goes on, people know just how good he was, given that he won't be involved heavily into these arguments.

There was a time when I was hoping for everything that KG would have a 3 or 4 year Championship rampage so he could surface back into the argument of greatest forward of this era, let alone all time, but Duncan just has that spot on lock.

Next...

Perfectly said.

 

[CP1708]

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

 

[CP1708]

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

 

[koolbarbone]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

If there is one guy we don't need to discuss, it's Duncan. We should all know where he stands. It's funny though, that for being the greatest ever at his position, Timmy did it relatively quiet compared to his peers. We always argue about the Kobe's, Lebron's, Wade's, and Jordan's. There's just nothing sexy about being the best PF ever, especially the way TD did it. Hopefully as time goes on, people know just how good he was, given that he won't be involved heavily into these arguments.

There was a time when I was hoping for everything that KG would have a 3 or 4 year Championship rampage so he could surface back into the argument of greatest forward of this era, let alone all time, but Duncan just has that spot on lock.

Next...

Agreed but it's pretty safe to say that PF is the weakest of all the positions historically.

You have great players with great statistics but no rings (Malone and Barkley), and very good players with rings (McHale, Hayes, Pettit). Duncan did what no one else at the position could do - win multiple titles and put up ridiculous numbers. 

 

[koolbarbone]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

If there is one guy we don't need to discuss, it's Duncan. We should all know where he stands. It's funny though, that for being the greatest ever at his position, Timmy did it relatively quiet compared to his peers. We always argue about the Kobe's, Lebron's, Wade's, and Jordan's. There's just nothing sexy about being the best PF ever, especially the way TD did it. Hopefully as time goes on, people know just how good he was, given that he won't be involved heavily into these arguments.

There was a time when I was hoping for everything that KG would have a 3 or 4 year Championship rampage so he could surface back into the argument of greatest forward of this era, let alone all time, but Duncan just has that spot on lock.

Next...

Agreed but it's pretty safe to say that PF is the weakest of all the positions historically.

You have great players with great statistics but no rings (Malone and Barkley), and very good players with rings (McHale, Hayes, Pettit). Duncan did what no one else at the position could do - win multiple titles and put up ridiculous numbers. 

 

[moneymike9]

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

For me the bottom half of top 10 all time....below Shaq & Wilt, but above Kobe & Hakeem...so probably around top 7 or 8, IMO.

 

[moneymike9]

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

For me the bottom half of top 10 all time....below Shaq & Wilt, but above Kobe & Hakeem...so probably around top 7 or 8, IMO.

 

[cronicmolemolereturns]

Originally Posted by mogzz04

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

For me the bottom half of top 10 all time....below Shaq & Wilt, but above Kobe & Hakeem...so probably around top 7 or 8, IMO.

you have this all confused.

 

[cronicmolemolereturns]

Originally Posted by mogzz04

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

For me the bottom half of top 10 all time....below Shaq & Wilt, but above Kobe & Hakeem...so probably around top 7 or 8, IMO.

you have this all confused.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

I wouldn't just forget them per se, cause he did play a role in getting those 3 rings.  For me, when discussing Kobe's legacy my opening statement unlike the rest of you dudes wouldn't be "Kobe has 5 rings".  Reason being is because Kobe was not the MAIN factor for 3 of the rings he has.  It's like you guys are tyring to maximize his legacy in a sense by trying to pull the wool over folks eyes into saying Kobe's role in getting his first 3 rings was larger than what it truly was.  Like I said before, for more than half of the rings Kobe has, he was never the Finals MVP, never the regular season MVP and wasn't the leading scorer for any of his first 3 championships...........FACT. 

So you start off saying you wouldn't say to forget them, but by the end of your paragraph you essentially say to forget them. Right. Some battles aren't worth the keystrokes. You got it dude. You really do.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

I wouldn't just forget them per se, cause he did play a role in getting those 3 rings.  For me, when discussing Kobe's legacy my opening statement unlike the rest of you dudes wouldn't be "Kobe has 5 rings".  Reason being is because Kobe was not the MAIN factor for 3 of the rings he has.  It's like you guys are tyring to maximize his legacy in a sense by trying to pull the wool over folks eyes into saying Kobe's role in getting his first 3 rings was larger than what it truly was.  Like I said before, for more than half of the rings Kobe has, he was never the Finals MVP, never the regular season MVP and wasn't the leading scorer for any of his first 3 championships...........FACT. 

So you start off saying you wouldn't say to forget them, but by the end of your paragraph you essentially say to forget them. Right. Some battles aren't worth the keystrokes. You got it dude. You really do.

 

[moneymike9]

Originally Posted by Cronicmolemolereturns

Originally Posted by mogzz04

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

For me the bottom half of top 10 all time....below Shaq & Wilt, but above Kobe & Hakeem...so probably around top 7 or 8, IMO.

you have this all confused.

Yeah, i may have, but aside from MJ @ 1, the rest of any top 10 list is very debatable anyway....at least that's how i view it. I find most people have different criteria's in ranking all-time greats. 
That's why i usually don't like a strict "ranking" system for a top 10 all-time list....because u could make arguments for most of the great players in that list. 

 

[moneymike9]

Originally Posted by Cronicmolemolereturns

Originally Posted by mogzz04

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

For me the bottom half of top 10 all time....below Shaq & Wilt, but above Kobe & Hakeem...so probably around top 7 or 8, IMO.

you have this all confused.

Yeah, i may have, but aside from MJ @ 1, the rest of any top 10 list is very debatable anyway....at least that's how i view it. I find most people have different criteria's in ranking all-time greats. 
That's why i usually don't like a strict "ranking" system for a top 10 all-time list....because u could make arguments for most of the great players in that list. 

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

That's a really tough call.

Top 10? I don't know, he should be, I can't think of 10 players with a more successful career.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by CP1708

But all time, where does Tim slot in for most people? Agreed best PF, but in terms of whole NBA, where does he belong?

That's a really tough call.

Top 10? I don't know, he should be, I can't think of 10 players with a more successful career.