NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

Looking back at the numbers, Shaq's worst Finals game out of 15 statistically in the 3peat was a 29/13 and 5 block game. 

.

43/19
40/24
33/13
36/21
35/11
41/12

44/20
28/20 + 9 blocks and 8 assists
30/12
34/14
29/13

36/16
40/12
35/11
34/10

For the love of God.......

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

Looking back at the numbers, Shaq's worst Finals game out of 15 statistically in the 3peat was a 29/13 and 5 block game. 

.

43/19
40/24
33/13
36/21
35/11
41/12

44/20
28/20 + 9 blocks and 8 assists
30/12
34/14
29/13

36/16
40/12
35/11
34/10

For the love of God.......

 

[japanair21]

Man, I'm sorry, but Kidd's 40% can't be argued about.

You just can't compare Stockton or Nash to Kidd in terms of shooting/scoring. Kidd has always been inefficient (other than SET three-pointers).

 

[japanair21]

Man, I'm sorry, but Kidd's 40% can't be argued about.

You just can't compare Stockton or Nash to Kidd in terms of shooting/scoring. Kidd has always been inefficient (other than SET three-pointers).

 

[darthska]

Osh Kosh Bosh:

---

Cmon Ska the difference between the Denver (best offense this year) and the Milwaukee (worst offense) is 5% of FG%. 9% Its HUGE.
I'm not denying that the difference makes Kidd a worst shooter than Nash, and all else who shoot better.

I'm merely contending the notion that he's a terrible shooter.

Words like 'terrible/great' are subjective; word like 'better/worst' aren't. Sure, the Bucks shoot worst than the Nuggets; you can't deny that, because the numbers won't let you.

Hovering around 40% for your career isn't terrible, in my opinion. It's decent. I'd even say subpar. But 'terrible'? Nah.

It's all semantics, anyways, and granted, I'm a huge Kidd fan. So yeah.

 

[darthska]

Osh Kosh Bosh:

---

Cmon Ska the difference between the Denver (best offense this year) and the Milwaukee (worst offense) is 5% of FG%. 9% Its HUGE.
I'm not denying that the difference makes Kidd a worst shooter than Nash, and all else who shoot better.

I'm merely contending the notion that he's a terrible shooter.

Words like 'terrible/great' are subjective; word like 'better/worst' aren't. Sure, the Bucks shoot worst than the Nuggets; you can't deny that, because the numbers won't let you.

Hovering around 40% for your career isn't terrible, in my opinion. It's decent. I'd even say subpar. But 'terrible'? Nah.

It's all semantics, anyways, and granted, I'm a huge Kidd fan. So yeah.

 

[deepinthajeep]

I'm sorry, but you can't put Jason Kidd over John Stockton....

By numbers alone, you can't.

Here's my list (again):
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Zeke
4. Kidd

2. John Stockton

• 2 NBA All 1st Team
  
• 10 NBA All-Star
  
• RECORD: 14.5 - Highest Assists per Game Avg.
  
• RECORD: 1164 - Most Assists in a Season
  
• RECORD: 15,806 - Most Career Assists
  
• RECORD: 3,265 - Most Career Steals
  
• RECORD: 9 - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Assists
  

3. Isiah Thomas

• 2 NBA Championships
  
• 3 NBA All 1st Team
  
• NBA Finals MVP
  
• 12 NBA All Star
  

4. Jason Kidd

• NBA Championship
  
• 5 NBA All 1st Team
  
• 10 NBA All-Star
  
• 4 NBA All Defensive 1st Team
  

 

[deepinthajeep]

I'm sorry, but you can't put Jason Kidd over John Stockton....

By numbers alone, you can't.

Here's my list (again):
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Zeke
4. Kidd

2. John Stockton

• 2 NBA All 1st Team
  
• 10 NBA All-Star
  
• RECORD: 14.5 - Highest Assists per Game Avg.
  
• RECORD: 1164 - Most Assists in a Season
  
• RECORD: 15,806 - Most Career Assists
  
• RECORD: 3,265 - Most Career Steals
  
• RECORD: 9 - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Assists
  

3. Isiah Thomas

• 2 NBA Championships
  
• 3 NBA All 1st Team
  
• NBA Finals MVP
  
• 12 NBA All Star
  

4. Jason Kidd

• NBA Championship
  
• 5 NBA All 1st Team
  
• 10 NBA All-Star
  
• 4 NBA All Defensive 1st Team
  

 

[darthska]

JapanAir21:

---

Man, I'm sorry, but Kidd's 40% can't be argued about.

This coming after how many big shots he hit for you guys the past couple seasons? 

 

[darthska]

JapanAir21:

---

Man, I'm sorry, but Kidd's 40% can't be argued about.

This coming after how many big shots he hit for you guys the past couple seasons? 

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by deepinthajeep

I'm sorry, but you can't put Jason Kidd over John Stockton....

By numbers alone, you just can't

So if we look past numbers and actual skill-set, are we "allowed" to put Kidd over Stockton?

Don't sit here and tell us we CAN'T do it as if Stockton is hands down Kidd's superior. Don't do that.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by deepinthajeep

I'm sorry, but you can't put Jason Kidd over John Stockton....

By numbers alone, you just can't

So if we look past numbers and actual skill-set, are we "allowed" to put Kidd over Stockton?

Don't sit here and tell us we CAN'T do it as if Stockton is hands down Kidd's superior. Don't do that.

 

[deepinthajeep]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by deepinthajeep

I'm sorry, but you can't put Jason Kidd over John Stockton....

By numbers alone, you just can't

So if we look past numbers and actual skill-set, are we "allowed" to put Kidd over Stockton?

Don't sit here and tell us we CAN'T do it as if Stockton is hands down Kidd's superior. Don't do that.

Fair enough, sir. But you do know that it's hard or almost impossible to quantify "actual skill-set."

Defensively, JKidd was/ is much better than John and much much more athletic. But take a look at the records Stockton set. If Jason plays long enough to possibly catch his all-time assists record and win another ring, he'll be #2 on my list no questions asked. But as of right now, Mr. Stockton's resume is better.

And I love J. Kidd.

 

[deepinthajeep]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by deepinthajeep

I'm sorry, but you can't put Jason Kidd over John Stockton....

By numbers alone, you just can't

So if we look past numbers and actual skill-set, are we "allowed" to put Kidd over Stockton?

Don't sit here and tell us we CAN'T do it as if Stockton is hands down Kidd's superior. Don't do that.

Fair enough, sir. But you do know that it's hard or almost impossible to quantify "actual skill-set."

Defensively, JKidd was/ is much better than John and much much more athletic. But take a look at the records Stockton set. If Jason plays long enough to possibly catch his all-time assists record and win another ring, he'll be #2 on my list no questions asked. But as of right now, Mr. Stockton's resume is better.

And I love J. Kidd.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

JapanAir21:

---

Man, I'm sorry, but Kidd's 40% can't be argued about.

This coming after how many big shots he hit for you guys the past couple seasons? 

Come on man.

Trevor Ariza hit some amazing shots for yall in the Playoffs.

Doesn't mean he's a great shooter.

Guys who aren't great shooters can still make great plays, whether it's creating a shot for someone else, or hitting a shot.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

JapanAir21:

---

Man, I'm sorry, but Kidd's 40% can't be argued about.

This coming after how many big shots he hit for you guys the past couple seasons? 

Come on man.

Trevor Ariza hit some amazing shots for yall in the Playoffs.

Doesn't mean he's a great shooter.

Guys who aren't great shooters can still make great plays, whether it's creating a shot for someone else, or hitting a shot.

 

[vc3fan]

Just Regular Seasons alone here is Kidd. (First Year in Jersey wasn't even his best year offensively points wise and people thought he was robbed of the MVP. Second year he went up for his best in his career since he was the only true All-Star, and do throw at me Kenyon Martin being there to help him scoring, KMART would not be who he was with out Kidd in his prime)


Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

94-95 DAL 79 79 33.8 0.385 0.272 0.698 1.9 3.5 5.4 7.7 1.9 0.3 3.16 1.85 11.7

95-96 DAL 81 81 37.5 0.381 0.336 0.692 2.5 4.3 6.8 9.7 2.2 0.3 4.05 1.91 16.6

96-97 DAL 22 22 36.0 0.369 0.323 0.667 1.4 2.7 4.1 9.1 2.0 0.4 3.00 1.91 9.9

96-97 PHX 33 23 35.5 0.423 0.400 0.688 1.0 3.8 4.8 9.0 2.4 0.4 2.30 2.18 11.6

96-97 -- 55 45 35.7 0.403 0.370 0.679 1.2 3.4 4.5 9.0 2.2 0.4 2.58 2.07 10.9

97-98 PHX 82 82 38.0 0.416 0.313 0.799 1.3 4.9 6.2 9.1 2.0 0.3 3.18 1.73 11.6

98-99 PHX 50 50 41.2 0.444 0.366 0.757 1.7 5.0 6.8 10.8 2.3 0.4 3.00 2.16 16.9

99-00 PHX 67 67 39.0 0.409 0.337 0.829 1.4 5.8 7.2 10.1 2.0 0.4 3.37 2.21 14.3

00-01 PHX 77 76 39.8 0.411 0.297 0.814 1.2 5.2 6.4 9.8 2.2 0.3 3.71 2.22 16.9

01-02 NJN 82 82 37.3 0.391 0.321 0.814 1.6 5.7 7.3 9.9 2.1 0.2 3.49 1.66 14.7

02-03 NJN 80 80 37.4 0.414 0.341 0.841 1.4 4.9 6.3 8.9 2.2 0.3 3.70 1.59 18.7

03-04 NJN 67 66 36.6 0.384 0.321 0.827 1.3 5.1 6.4 9.2 1.8 0.2 3.19 1.64 15.5

04-05 NJN 66 65 36.9 0.398 0.360 0.740 1.4 6.0 7.4 8.3 1.9 0.1 2.53 1.67 14.4

05-06 NJN 80 80 37.2 0.404 0.352 0.795 1.1 6.2 7.3 8.4 1.9 0.4 2.40 1.96 13.3

06-07 NJN 80 80 36.7 0.406 0.343 0.778 1.7 6.5 8.2 9.2 1.6 0.3 2.66 1.82 13.0

07-08 NJN 51 51 37.2 0.366 0.356 0.820 1.1 6.9 8.1 10.4 1.4 0.3 3.63 1.76 11.3

07-08 DAL 29 29 34.9 0.426 0.461 0.815 1.2 5.2 6.5 9.5 2.1 0.4 2.79 2.59 9.9

07-08 -- 80 80 36.3 0.385 0.381 0.818 1.2 6.3 7.5 10.1 1.7 0.3 3.33 2.06 10.8

08-09 DAL 81 81 35.6 0.416 0.406 0.819 1.0 5.1 6.2 8.7 2.0 0.5 2.28 2.07 9.0

09-10 DAL 80 80 36.0 0.423 0.425 0.808 0.6 5.0 5.6 9.1 1.8 0.4 2.44 1.78 10.3

10-11 DAL 80 80 33.2 0.361 0.340 0.870 0.4 4.0 4.4 8.2 1.7 0.4 2.24 1.49 7.9

Career 1,267 1,254 36.9 0.401 0.348 0.784 1.3 5.1 6.5 9.1 2.0 0.3 3.03 1.87 13.2




It is perfectly understandable why people do not think Kidd is a top three PG to ever play even with the ring now. I just put him above Stockton due to the ring and the number of final appearances Kidd has. And your are right Ska as much as I love Oscar Robertson, his playoff stats were never on par to his regular season performances.

 

[vc3fan]

Just Regular Seasons alone here is Kidd. (First Year in Jersey wasn't even his best year offensively points wise and people thought he was robbed of the MVP. Second year he went up for his best in his career since he was the only true All-Star, and do throw at me Kenyon Martin being there to help him scoring, KMART would not be who he was with out Kidd in his prime)


Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

94-95 DAL 79 79 33.8 0.385 0.272 0.698 1.9 3.5 5.4 7.7 1.9 0.3 3.16 1.85 11.7

95-96 DAL 81 81 37.5 0.381 0.336 0.692 2.5 4.3 6.8 9.7 2.2 0.3 4.05 1.91 16.6

96-97 DAL 22 22 36.0 0.369 0.323 0.667 1.4 2.7 4.1 9.1 2.0 0.4 3.00 1.91 9.9

96-97 PHX 33 23 35.5 0.423 0.400 0.688 1.0 3.8 4.8 9.0 2.4 0.4 2.30 2.18 11.6

96-97 -- 55 45 35.7 0.403 0.370 0.679 1.2 3.4 4.5 9.0 2.2 0.4 2.58 2.07 10.9

97-98 PHX 82 82 38.0 0.416 0.313 0.799 1.3 4.9 6.2 9.1 2.0 0.3 3.18 1.73 11.6

98-99 PHX 50 50 41.2 0.444 0.366 0.757 1.7 5.0 6.8 10.8 2.3 0.4 3.00 2.16 16.9

99-00 PHX 67 67 39.0 0.409 0.337 0.829 1.4 5.8 7.2 10.1 2.0 0.4 3.37 2.21 14.3

00-01 PHX 77 76 39.8 0.411 0.297 0.814 1.2 5.2 6.4 9.8 2.2 0.3 3.71 2.22 16.9

01-02 NJN 82 82 37.3 0.391 0.321 0.814 1.6 5.7 7.3 9.9 2.1 0.2 3.49 1.66 14.7

02-03 NJN 80 80 37.4 0.414 0.341 0.841 1.4 4.9 6.3 8.9 2.2 0.3 3.70 1.59 18.7

03-04 NJN 67 66 36.6 0.384 0.321 0.827 1.3 5.1 6.4 9.2 1.8 0.2 3.19 1.64 15.5

04-05 NJN 66 65 36.9 0.398 0.360 0.740 1.4 6.0 7.4 8.3 1.9 0.1 2.53 1.67 14.4

05-06 NJN 80 80 37.2 0.404 0.352 0.795 1.1 6.2 7.3 8.4 1.9 0.4 2.40 1.96 13.3

06-07 NJN 80 80 36.7 0.406 0.343 0.778 1.7 6.5 8.2 9.2 1.6 0.3 2.66 1.82 13.0

07-08 NJN 51 51 37.2 0.366 0.356 0.820 1.1 6.9 8.1 10.4 1.4 0.3 3.63 1.76 11.3

07-08 DAL 29 29 34.9 0.426 0.461 0.815 1.2 5.2 6.5 9.5 2.1 0.4 2.79 2.59 9.9

07-08 -- 80 80 36.3 0.385 0.381 0.818 1.2 6.3 7.5 10.1 1.7 0.3 3.33 2.06 10.8

08-09 DAL 81 81 35.6 0.416 0.406 0.819 1.0 5.1 6.2 8.7 2.0 0.5 2.28 2.07 9.0

09-10 DAL 80 80 36.0 0.423 0.425 0.808 0.6 5.0 5.6 9.1 1.8 0.4 2.44 1.78 10.3

10-11 DAL 80 80 33.2 0.361 0.340 0.870 0.4 4.0 4.4 8.2 1.7 0.4 2.24 1.49 7.9

Career 1,267 1,254 36.9 0.401 0.348 0.784 1.3 5.1 6.5 9.1 2.0 0.3 3.03 1.87 13.2




It is perfectly understandable why people do not think Kidd is a top three PG to ever play even with the ring now. I just put him above Stockton due to the ring and the number of final appearances Kidd has. And your are right Ska as much as I love Oscar Robertson, his playoff stats were never on par to his regular season performances.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

I don't think you can say that Kidd is better than Isiah Thomas.....
Defensively
Aside from Magic name one starting pg that was over 6'3" 180
I cannot think one one off the top of my head. Kidd would have been defending 2's in the 80's and while he would have been effective his defense would not have the profound effect it has in the era he played.
While Isiah might not be the individual defender Kidd was he was a great team defender
I personally love Isiah the player because he showed he could do it all.
Early in his career his numbers are most comprable to Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose ( specifically 82-83)
Then he had the period where he was CP3  and got you the 10-13 assists.
Then as what happens with all great pg's his individual numbers went down but his team started winning more. Pace and the capabilities of his teammates factor into the drop.
But Isiah was clearly the man in what I would compare to a Dirk or Tim Duncan type way as a PG.
They had other guys Dumars, Lambeer, Aguire,Terry, Kidd, Marion, Manu, Parker. But they were the unquestioned leaders for championship teams.
For me not only do Isiah's 2 titles rank higher, to the point where I would put him ahead of Stockton, but they considering the difference in the times, especially the defense , and the idea that Kidd might be guarding 2's like Magic guarded 3's and 4's put him ahead of Kidd

That top modern pg list reads like this
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
At the same time Isiah isnt in the top 10 players all time no matter how I try and shape it.
Like you said deepinthajeep. You cannot put Kidd ahead of Stockton, but you cannot put Stockton ahead of Isiah either.
The numbers and the variety of styles Isiah played dont really lend themselves to it. You got to consider that Isiah didnt grow up shooting 3pt shots from NBA range. John was a completely different basketball generation ( I personally put them at every 5 years interms of development, 10 years in the NBA)
You can make whatever argument about John's longevity, but John was not really in the discussion with Magic and Isiah at anypoint of their careers except for the assists record. And he didnt win titles either. That has to count for something otherwise your overrating John's numbers and longevity and underrating the 10 years where Isiah was either the best or second best pg.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

I don't think you can say that Kidd is better than Isiah Thomas.....
Defensively
Aside from Magic name one starting pg that was over 6'3" 180
I cannot think one one off the top of my head. Kidd would have been defending 2's in the 80's and while he would have been effective his defense would not have the profound effect it has in the era he played.
While Isiah might not be the individual defender Kidd was he was a great team defender
I personally love Isiah the player because he showed he could do it all.
Early in his career his numbers are most comprable to Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose ( specifically 82-83)
Then he had the period where he was CP3  and got you the 10-13 assists.
Then as what happens with all great pg's his individual numbers went down but his team started winning more. Pace and the capabilities of his teammates factor into the drop.
But Isiah was clearly the man in what I would compare to a Dirk or Tim Duncan type way as a PG.
They had other guys Dumars, Lambeer, Aguire,Terry, Kidd, Marion, Manu, Parker. But they were the unquestioned leaders for championship teams.
For me not only do Isiah's 2 titles rank higher, to the point where I would put him ahead of Stockton, but they considering the difference in the times, especially the defense , and the idea that Kidd might be guarding 2's like Magic guarded 3's and 4's put him ahead of Kidd

That top modern pg list reads like this
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
At the same time Isiah isnt in the top 10 players all time no matter how I try and shape it.
Like you said deepinthajeep. You cannot put Kidd ahead of Stockton, but you cannot put Stockton ahead of Isiah either.
The numbers and the variety of styles Isiah played dont really lend themselves to it. You got to consider that Isiah didnt grow up shooting 3pt shots from NBA range. John was a completely different basketball generation ( I personally put them at every 5 years interms of development, 10 years in the NBA)
You can make whatever argument about John's longevity, but John was not really in the discussion with Magic and Isiah at anypoint of their careers except for the assists record. And he didnt win titles either. That has to count for something otherwise your overrating John's numbers and longevity and underrating the 10 years where Isiah was either the best or second best pg.

 

[CP1708]

To be honest with ya'll, I still have Gary Payton ahead of Jason Kidd any day. 

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.  Kidd did rebound better than GP, but a lock down defender like that, at the point of my defense? 

  Gimme that each and every time without question. 

 

[CP1708]

To be honest with ya'll, I still have Gary Payton ahead of Jason Kidd any day. 

Gary's defense, and ability to score, while still getting 8 assists (or a mere couple less than Kidd) is more valuable to me than anything Kidd did.  Kidd did rebound better than GP, but a lock down defender like that, at the point of my defense? 

  Gimme that each and every time without question. 

 

[vc3fan]

Not saying your not wrong gangsta, It becomes an interesting debate about Kidd.


I just think a lot people stare at his shooting numbers and go from their. One of the last TRUE PG's you may see in a while.

Now the position is filled with the likes of Rose, Westbrooks, DWill, CP3, ETC ETC who do make others around them better but can control the game from the beginning to end without getting others involved. Kidd is the last PG left IMO that needed others involved like a true PG once did.


It is just a very interesting debate. and many will have different says.

 

[vc3fan]

Not saying your not wrong gangsta, It becomes an interesting debate about Kidd.


I just think a lot people stare at his shooting numbers and go from their. One of the last TRUE PG's you may see in a while.

Now the position is filled with the likes of Rose, Westbrooks, DWill, CP3, ETC ETC who do make others around them better but can control the game from the beginning to end without getting others involved. Kidd is the last PG left IMO that needed others involved like a true PG once did.


It is just a very interesting debate. and many will have different says.

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by MOE FAB UAFA


To the guy who said Duncan>Kobe, Kobe has more rings, better stats, and has also had a bigger "fear factor" than Duncan. 

I'm going make this as simple as possible,

take duncan off of those spurs championship teams and replace with any all-star PF from that year, do the spurs still win any of those championships?

take kobe off of those lakers championship teams and replace him with any all-star SG from that year, do the lakers still win those championships?


if i'm in an all-time draft, i'm taking duncan everytime over kobe (especially considering i would be able to draft manu and/or parker later in the draft.. shaq probably gets drafted BEFORE kobe)