IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[longstroke]

Prove it

 

[sb]

I don't think that at any time in his career, did anyone, not any of his peers, nor any of the veterans, say that Kobe Bryant was the future of the NBA. However, we've seen plenty say that LeBron James is indeed just that.

As much as I hate Nike, and I think that this is pretty well known here on Nike Talk, LeBron is indeed the man and also the face of NBA. So when that All Time Top Ten list comes around in a few years, and usually it's ESPN that does it, Kobe is not going to be up there.

I can almost guarantee that.

It's going to go by era, and then who contributed to what in their respective era's.

Let's break it down again.

Mikan made Pro Basketball and the NBA popular, as he is the Babe Ruth of the modern NBA.

Wilt? No explanation needed here.

Russ? Rings, character, exceptional intellect while on court, a leader.

Oscar. The only man to put the fear of God in the Celtics in that time...and he had no help in regard to talent, and still averaged damn near a triple double for his career.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Consistency, night in, night out. You knew what you were going to get, every, single, time. They knew what he was going to do, and still could not stop it.

Dr. J. Not much is said about this, but when he came in from the ABA, ticket sales for Sixer games in NBA cities saw a sudden spike, increasing the revenue for the league as a whole. The NBA was also able to increase it's price of advertising. This cat was THAT dude. When he played up the Rucker in Harlem, people sat on fences, school rooftops, and then in trees to watch him do his thing. This is the first cat to bring that street cred to the NBA.

Magic and Bird, nuff said.

Jordan. Needless to say, there would not even be a Nike Talk, if it were not for Jordan. His spot on the list is so solid, that he can be the worst owner in the NBA, and still be considered number 1 all time.

The order I've placed this in, is due to their era, as it relates to now. Nobody has picked up the ball after Jordan left.

Nobody. 

Shaq did his best, but could not sustain it, and if Duncan had a personality, he'd been that dude. But Kobe Bryant didn't even come close to eclipsing his own teammate, and that is probably another reason as to why he wanted Shaq gone and out of his way.

I'd personally give Kobe top fifteen, but not Top Ten.

LeBron is going to be that dude, just watch.

your right. if people could see the future he would of gone number 1 in the draft that year not 13th

.

 

[longstroke]

When Kobe retires, I promise you and ya'll can QUOTE ME on this, the NBA ratings will DROP big time. You can go to just about ANY other city aside from LA and half the fans have Kobe gear on and ALL the fans (yes even you haters) are there to watch KOBE. Although he is great along with others, lebron does NOT have this. Another thing for those dissing on Kobe's age he is still dropping 40 pluse points, getting double digit rebounds and even as a SHOOTING guard averages more assist then many POINT guards (it still amazes and annoys me big time how people say he shoots too much, but yet FAILS to REALIZE Kobe is a SHOOTING guard, who yes I will say it again averages more assist then many POINT guards)! When these guys hit Kobes age I promise you they will not be half of what he is now. Period. Too add about the fan base the mans oversease buzz can NOT and will NOT ever be touched by the current players. As far as scoring ANYONE who watches basketball KNOWS that Kobe handed over the scoring title to KD this past year when EASILY could have WON it.

Da' hell?

The ratings dropped when Kobe was in his prime! They go down any further, the NBA will be back on tape delay!

He retires, it can't help but improve!

 

[sb]

Da' hell?

The ratings dropped when Kobe was in his prime! They go down any further, the NBA will be back on tape delay!

He retires, it can't help but improve!

still havent seen your answer to the question:

so lets say lebron james wins 7 championships between 2010 and 2019. for some reason nba attendance between this time drops 20 percent for any reason you want (economy, interest, etc.). so your saying that because 20 percent of the rating drop that will have a correlation to what he did on the court?

 

[longstroke]

your right. if people could see the future he would of gone number 1 in the draft that year not 13th

.

But he did go 13th, right?

Even with his hard work to become what he has indeed become, he still wasn't considered the future of the NBA, and then still isn't a top ten player all time.

 

[tommyicerocking]

shaq could of been the greatest player if he put in the work

agreed

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Stroke,

Kobe not being "labeled" as the future in his younger years has what to do with the argument. I am not understanding what that has to do with what he has accomplished while playing.

 

[sb]

But he did go 13th, right?

Even with his hard work to become what he has indeed become, he still wasn't considered the future of the NBA, and then still isn't a top ten player all time.

was jordan considered the face of the nba when he went 3rd in the draft? no. did that stop him from owning the nba in his time? no.

 

[longstroke]

still havent seen your answer to the question:

so lets say lebron james wins 7 championships between 2010 and 2019. for some reason nba attendance between this time drops 20 percent for any reason you want (economy, interest, etc.). so your saying that because 20 percent of the rating drop that will have a correlation to what he did on the court?

I don't care if you never see my response, because people like you who will try and discredit someone through a suggestion of battery, is incapable of dealing with logic and reason, those supported by facts.

Get a grip, Kobe Bryant is not a top ten player, and then never will be considered one if the poll is done by era, as it is supposed to be done.

 

[tommyicerocking]

Here is my list of the best players from the 2000 era. (This list is based on the prime/peak, not careers)

1. Shaquille O'Neal

2. Lebron James

3. Tim Duncan

4. Kobe Bryant

5. Kevin Garnett

6. Dwayne Wade

7. Jason Kidd

8. Dirk Nowitzki

9. Allen Iverson

10. Steve Nash

 

[longstroke]

Stroke,
Kobe not being "labeled" as the future in his younger years has what to do with the argument. I am not understanding what that has to do with what he has accomplished while playing.

I am not even speaking about when he was drafted. 

When he played in is first All Star game, he pissed off a few people by waving Karl Malone off as he tried to set a pick. When asked if they see Kobe as the future of the NBA, several players said I hope not.

This was quoted in Sports Illustrated.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Get a grip, Kobe Bryant is not a top ten player, and then never will be considered one if the poll is done by era, as it is supposed to be done.

See this is where the issue lies. You are speaking as if it is FACT that he isn't Top 10 when rankings are opinionated. Sure some opinions make more sense than others but you can't say, in absolute fashion, that Kobe isn't Top 10 of all time. It depends on who is doing the rankings. It depends on what eras those individuals lived through. So it isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be man.

I think you are missing that point.

Always remember players get better with time, meaning as they retire for some years and grow fat/old, their legacy grows. So it is somewhat biased to speak on Kobe when his career isn't complete. Seeing him causes us to no appreciate him as much as we would if he were retired for 10 years.

I am not saying he is or isn't Top 10, I am simply saying there is no WRONG answer here.

And before you say, "Well if that is the case, is Vince Carter Top 10 since there are no wrong answers." Lets keep it civil and realistic.

Kobe Bryant is ARGUABLY a Top 10 player of all time. Some will say yes. Some will say no. Nothing further.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I am not even speaking about when he was drafted. 

When he played in is first All Star game, he pissed off a few people by waving Karl Malone off as he tried to set a pick. When asked if they see Kobe as the future of the NBA, several players said I hope not.

This was quoted in Sports Illustrated.

But what does that have to do with anything? I am not seeing why that point is even being presented. That has nothing to do with on court production. Which is the only thing we should be discussing.

 

[sb]

I am not even speaking about when he was drafted. 

When he played in is first All Star game, he pissed off a few people by waving Karl Malone off as he tried to set a pick. When asked if they see Kobe as the future of the NBA, several players said I hope not.

This was quoted in Sports Illustrated.

so by your logic, a player being the face of the nba is based on what his peers think?

 

[goldenarmz97]

You know that Kobe's Laker teams have eliminated Tim Duncan's Spurs teams 4 out of the 5 times they've met. Right?

You're either trolling, or just not knowledgeable when it comes to the game of basketball. Either way, I'd rather not read your posts from this point on.

 

[tommyicerocking]

I am not even speaking about when he was drafted. 

When he played in is first All Star game, he pissed off a few people by waving Karl Malone off as he tried to set a pick. When asked if they see Kobe as the future of the NBA, several players said I hope not.

This was quoted in Sports Illustrated.

Kobe even being in the ASG was a disgraced. SMH but yeah it's the fans who get to vote for who the players they want to see..........and Kobe Bryant playing in L.A (2nd largest city in America) was the reason he voted in as a starter.

 

[black entourage inc]

I don't think that at any time in his career, did anyone, not any of his peers, nor any of the veterans, say that Kobe Bryant was the future of the NBA. However, we've seen plenty say that LeBron James is indeed just that.

As much as I hate Nike, and I think that this is pretty well known here on Nike Talk, LeBron is indeed the man and also the face of NBA. So when that All Time Top Ten list comes around in a few years, and usually it's ESPN that does it, Kobe is not going to be up there.

I can almost guarantee that.

It's going to go by era, and then who contributed to what in their respective era's.

Let's break it down again.

Mikan made Pro Basketball and the NBA popular, as he is the Babe Ruth of the modern NBA.
Wilt? No explanation needed here.
Russ? Rings, character, exceptional intellect while on court, a leader.
Oscar. The only man to put the fear of God in the Celtics in that time...and he had no help in regard to talent, and still averaged damn near a triple double for his career.
Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Consistency, night in, night out. You knew what you were going to get, every, single, time. They knew what he was going to do, and still could not stop it.
Dr. J. Not much is said about this, but when he came in from the ABA, ticket sales for Sixer games in NBA cities saw a sudden spike, increasing the revenue for the league as a whole. The NBA was also able to increase it's price of advertising. This cat was THAT dude. When he played up the Rucker in Harlem, people sat on fences, school rooftops, and then in trees to watch him do his thing. This is the first cat to bring that street cred to the NBA.
Magic and Bird, nuff said.
Jordan. Needless to say, there would not even be a Nike Talk, if it were not for Jordan. His spot on the list is so solid, that he can be the worst owner in the NBA, and still be considered number 1 all time.

The order I've placed this in, is due to their era, as it relates to now. Nobody has picked up the ball after Jordan left.

Nobody. 

Shaq did his best, but could not sustain it, and if Duncan had a personality, he'd been that dude. But Kobe Bryant didn't even come close to eclipsing his own teammate, and that is probably another reason as to why he wanted Shaq gone and out of his way.

I'd personally give Kobe top fifteen, but not Top Ten.

LeBron is going to be that dude, just watch.

The NBA wasn't popular until Russell and Wilt. It didn't have the exposure of baseball or football or boxing until the late 1950's, AFTER Mikan retired. Yes he was a great big man and the first real superstar of the game, but the NBA wasn't anywhere close to popular. Yes Mikan get's respect but please stop acting like the League was primetime or anywhere near as popular as it is now. It wasn't, he didn't make it popular because basketball itself wasn't popular. The sport was new and no one paid it much attention until the late 50's/early 60's when Wilt/Russell battled and it didn't become Primetime until Magic/Bird

 

[longstroke]

See this is where the issue lies. You are speaking as if it is FACT that he isn't Top 10 when rankings are opinionated. Sure some opinions make more sense than others but you can't say, in absolute fashion, that Kobe isn't Top 10 of all time. It depends on who is doing the rankings. It depends on what eras those individuals lived through. So it isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be man.
I think you are missing that point.
Always remember players get better with time, meaning as they retire for some years and grow fat/old, their legacy grows. So it is somewhat biased to speak on Kobe when his career isn't complete. Seeing him causes us to no appreciate him as much as we would if he were retired for 10 years.
I am not saying he is or isn't Top 10, I am simply saying there is no WRONG answer here.
And before you say, "Well if that is the case, is Vince Carter Top 10 since there are no wrong answers." Lets keep it civil and realistic.
Kobe Bryant is ARGUABLY a Top 10 player of all time. Some will say yes. Some will say no. Nothing further.

But that is what we are doing right? Discussing if he is indeed top ten, correct?

To be quite honest, all sides are presenting their position on the subject, but the problem is, many do not want to hear from those who have facts to support their position.

Fact is...when you speak about all time greats, creating a legitimate list as they do in Baseball, you cannot compare the era in which they've played. Who was the best in their respective era? This is going to be the big debate in regard to the MLB Hall of Fame this coming year. Who was the best, without using drugs? You cannot say that since Bonds hit the most HR's, that he should be the best of the lot, you have to compare all stats, and then their relevancy to the game.

Because Kobe Bryant messed himself up with Colorado, and then played behind Shaq, he never had the chance to be the face of the NBA, so let's be real about that.

Since he was not the face, how is he going to replace those who were indeed the FACES of the sport?

Their numbers are just as great, if not even better, than his. So you want to count rings? Well, let's make it equal, who were the better ambassadors for the game?

Oscar or Kobe?

Mikan or Kobe?

Kareem or Kobe?

Doc or Kobe?

Jordan or Kobe?

Magic or Kobe?

Bird or Kobe?

Wilt or Kobe?

RUSS of Kobe?

Who is he going to replace on any legit list?

Of course it's all opinion, but many of you love to throw around the term credible.

How credible is any list that puts Kobe ahead of these guys?

But what does that have to do with anything? I am not seeing why that point is even being presented. That has nothing to do with on court production. Which is the only thing we should be discussing.

Okay, so you want to go with court production alone?

Sam Jones.

Ten rings, so why is Kobe Bryant better than him?

 

[longstroke]

Either way, I'd rather not read your posts from this point on.

Good, as I am certain that there is a picture of Kobe that is in need of your attention.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

^ But the point I am making is YOU are deciding to focus a lot on "relevancy to the game." I am not saying that it shouldn't be considered but if someone wants to make a list that doesn't focus on it as much as you are doing it, it doesn't make your list any more right/wrong than theirs.

People are going to make their lists based on things that are important to them.
They are going to weigh certain factors more heavily than someone else might weigh them.

It is hard for ME to compare people of different eras, of different positions. Which is why I have semi-stayed out of the actual argument.

Rules are different. Eras are different. Drug usage is different. Medicine is different. Training regiments are different.

I am not comparing those dudes to each other.

But if someone is going to, I can SEE WHY Kobe is in their Top 10 list.

 

[longstroke]

The NBA wasn't popular until Russell and Wilt. It didn't have the exposure of baseball or football or boxing until the late 1950's, AFTER Mikan retired. Yes he was a great big man and the first real superstar of the game, but the NBA wasn't anywhere close to popular. Yes Mikan get's respect but please stop acting like the League was primetime or anywhere near as popular as it is now. It wasn't, he didn't make it popular because basketball itself wasn't popular. The sport was new and no one paid it much attention until the late 50's/early 60's when Wilt/Russell battled and it didn't become Primetime until Magic/Bird

I don't know why I am responding to this, because it obvious that you have no clue as to what you are talking about, but here is some info for you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mikan

Read it, understand it, then get back to me. 

 

[longstroke]

^ But the point I am making is YOU are deciding to focus a lot on "relevancy to the game." I am not saying that it shouldn't be considered but if someone wants to make a list that doesn't focus on it as much as you are doing it, it doesn't make your list any more right/wrong than theirs.
People are going to make their lists based on things that are important to them.
They are going to weigh certain factors more heavily than someone else might weigh them.
It is hard for ME to compare people of different eras, of different positions. Which is why I have semi-stayed out of the actual argument.
Rules are different. Eras are different. Drug usage is different. Medicine is different. Training regiments are different.
I am not comparing those dudes to each other.
But if someone is going to, I can SEE WHY Kobe is in their Top 10 list.

You see, if this were any place other than Nike Talk, where fairness and objectivity would rule when discussing Kobe Bryant and his relevancy to the game, I'd agree with you.

However, since we both know that this is not the case.....

Kobe is top fifteen, but it is an insult to anyone with any knowledge and understanding of the history of the game, to say that Kobe Bryant should be considered top ten, only on his stats alone.

Like I said, if that's the case, Sam Jones is top ten as well.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Kobe is top fifteen, but it is an insult to anyone with any knowledge and understanding of the history of the game, to say that Kobe Bryant should be considered top ten, only on his stats alone.

Hypothetical: So what if Hubie Brown were to make the claim that Kobe was top 10, would you comment above still hold any weight?

It isn't right to make, "Anyone with common sense knows that ______." That is elitist and again making an opinionated statement into a fact.

You don't see what you are doing?

I am pretty sure someone with "expert knowledge" on the game would put Kobe in their top 10, so again, it is an opinionated statement.

 

[essential1]

^ But the point I am making is YOU are deciding to focus a lot on "relevancy to the game." I am not saying that it shouldn't be considered but if someone wants to make a list that doesn't focus on it as much as you are doing it, it doesn't make your list any more right/wrong than theirs.

People are going to make their lists based on things that are important to them.

They are going to weigh certain factors more heavily than someone else might weigh them.

It is hard for ME to compare people of different eras, of different positions. Which is why I have semi-stayed out of the actual argument.

Rules are different. Eras are different. Drug usage is different. Medicine is different. Training regiments are different.

I am not comparing those dudes to each other.

But if someone is going to, I can SEE WHY Kobe is in their Top 10 list.

You see, if this were any place other than Nike Talk, where fairness and objectivity would rule when discussing Kobe Bryant and his relevancy to the game, I'd agree with you.

However, since we both know that this is not the case.....

Kobe is top fifteen, but it is an insult to anyone with any knowledge and understanding of the history of the game, to say that Kobe Bryant should be considered top ten, only on his stats alone.

Like I said, if that's the case, Sam Jones is top ten as well.

You do know damn near all analysts, writers, ball players, etc. have him in their top 10 at this point.. Maybe with the exception of Jason Whitlock, you'd find very few allies.

But you can proceed thinking your opinion is better than theirs.

 

[black entourage inc]

I don't know why I am responding to this, because it obvious that you have no clue as to what you are talking about, but here is some info for you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mikan

Read it, understand it, then get back to me. 

...you're not understanding what I'm saying. I never once said anything going against George Mikans career, his skill, what he did for the game and I do agree he deserves more respect then he gets. All i said was he didn't popularize the sport. Yes he was the most popular person in the game, but the game itself wasn't popular. And I'd put Tim Duncan in the top 10 of all time over George Mikan. Being a pioneer/1st superstar doesn't equal top 10