IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[longstroke]

Hypothetical: So what if Hubie Brown were to make the claim that Kobe was top 10, would you comment above still hold any weight?
It isn't right to make, "Anyone with common sense knows that ______." That is elitist and again making an opinionated statement into a fact.
You don't see what you are doing?
I am pretty sure someone with "expert knowledge" on the game would put Kobe in their top 10, so again, it is an opinionated statement.

Let's see...experts in any field tend to use inductive reasoning, science, in order to deduce what's best, correct?

They include all data to determine what is most effective, then determining what's best.

Correct?

So are you going to tell me that experts in any determining field, in this case hoops, are NOT going to include the effect that players have had in regard to the popularity of the sport, with all others things being equal, while determining  who should be placed at the top?

 

[essential1]

I don't know why I am responding to this, because it obvious that you have no clue as to what you are talking about, but here is some info for you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mikan

Read it, understand it, then get back to me. 

...you're not understanding what I'm saying. I never once said anything going against George Mikans career, his skill, what he did for the game and I do agree he deserves more respect then he gets. All i said was he didn't popularize the sport. Yes he was the most popular person in the game, but the game itself wasn't popular. And I'd put Tim Duncan in the top 10 of all time over George Mikan. Being a pioneer/1st superstar doesn't equal top 10

Exactly. No one considers Sugarhill Gang top 10 in HipHop. And if they did they'd get laughed at.

 

[essential1]

Hypothetical: So what if Hubie Brown were to make the claim that Kobe was top 10, would you comment above still hold any weight?

It isn't right to make, "Anyone with common sense knows that ______." That is elitist and again making an opinionated statement into a fact.

You don't see what you are doing?

I am pretty sure someone with "expert knowledge" on the game would put Kobe in their top 10, so again, it is an opinionated statement.

Let's see...experts in any field tend to use inductive reasoning, science, in order to deduce what's best, correct?

They include all data to determine what is most effective, then determining what's best.

Correct?

So are you going to tell me that experts in any determining field, in this case hoops, are NOT going to include the effect that players have had in regard to the popularity of the sport, with all others things being equal, while determining  who should be placed at the top?

Most experts put Kobe top 10.. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[DCAllAfrican]

So are you going to tell me that experts in any determining field, in this case hoops, are NOT going to include the effect that players have had in regard to the popularity of the sport, with all others things being equal, while determining  who should be placed at the top?

I never said that.

I said the amount they consider that "influence on the game" might differ from yours. Which would allow someone that was never the face of the NBA be ranked higher than you would rank that person.

 

[longstroke]

You do know damn near all analysts, writers, ball players, etc. have him in their top 10 at this point.. Maybe with the exception of Jason Whitlock, you'd find very few allies.
But you can proceed thinking your opinion is better than theirs.

Fact is, LeBron leapfrogged over Kobe Bryant, even before he won his first chip.

This, is from more than one person as well. 

They even had a question in a mag, asking who'd players would rather play with.

 

[longstroke]

Exactly. No one considers Sugarhill Gang top 10 in HipHop. And if they did they'd get laughed at.

Music is not that same thing as sport. Music evolves differently, but you'd better know that James Brown is top ten all time on any list musically.

 

[sea manup]

reading the posts in this thread i would say kobe is pretty underrated

 

[moonman818]

Fact is, LeBron leapfrogged over Kobe Bryant, even before he won his first chip.

This, is from more than one person as well. 

They even had a question in a mag, asking who'd players would rather play with.

lol

 

[longstroke]

I never said that.
I said the amount they consider that "influence on the game" might differ from yours. Which would allow someone that was never the face of the NBA be ranked higher than you would rank that person.

No it wouldn't differ from mine, because that is exactly the argument they are having about the steroid era in baseball.

On court, and then as an individual, Kobe is a very good player. Off court, and then as a teammate, then being an ambassador for the game, he has been HORRIBLE.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

No it wouldn't differ from mine, because that is exactly the argument they are having about the steroid era in baseball.

On court, and then as an individual, Kobe is a very good player. Off court, and then as a teammate, then being an ambassador for the game, he has been HORRIBLE.

My last time attempting to explain this.

4 people sitting in a room making all time rankings

Person A: 70% on court - 30% influence
Person B: 50% on court - 50% influence
Person C: 65% on court - 35% influence
Person D: 80% on court - 20% influence

How can you say that Person D has the most correct way of measurement? When it is ALL opinionated from the start.
The lists will be different since they breakdowns are different.

Do you get me now?

 

[sea manup]

My last time attempting to explain this.
4 people sitting in a room making all time rankings
Person A: 70% on court - 30% influence
Person B: 50% on court - 50% influence
Person C: 65% on court - 35% influence
Person D: 80% on court - 20% influence
How can you say that Person D has the most correct way of measurement? When it is ALL opinionated from the start.
The lists will be different since they breakdowns are different.
Do you get me now?

i dont think you understand, anyone who knows anything about basketball has the same criteria as longstroke. By disagreeing with him it just shows your lack of knowledge for the game

 

[longstroke]

My last time attempting to explain this.
4 people sitting in a room making all time rankings
Person A: 70% on court - 30% influence
Person B: 50% on court - 50% influence
Person C: 65% on court - 35% influence
Person D: 80% on court - 20% influence
How can you say that Person D has the most correct way of measurement? When it is ALL opinionated from the start.
The lists will be different since they breakdowns are different.
Do you get me now?

I understood you the first time, and you just don't like my response, as you are looking for me to agree with you.

I don't agree.

A good way for us to see each other equally, is to bring in the computer, one that measures data, efficiency.

Right? No emotion, no opinion, just fact.

How do you think that Kobe will do on that sort of test?

Is Kobe Bryant an efficient player, compared to the top ten I've presented?

Put in all of the numbers, where do you think that Kobe would rank all time?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

i dont think you understand, anyone who knows anything about basketball has the same criteria as longstroke. By disagreeing with him it just shows your lack of knowledge for the game

How can you make such a blind statement? Anyone that knows anything about basketball has the same exact formula to rate a player's stand in history? How are you even making that statement?

No by disagreeing with him shows that I understand people have different methods of judging a player's value.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I understood you the first time, and you just don't like my response, as you are looking for me to agree with you.
I don't agree.
A good way for us to see each other equally, is to bring in the computer, one that measures data, efficiency.
Right? No emotion, no opinion, just fact.
How do you think that Kobe will do on that sort of test?
Is Kobe Bryant an efficient player, compared to the top ten I've presented?
Put in all of the numbers, where do you think that Kobe would rank all time?

But we aren't simply speaking of efficiency. The discussion isn't about who are the Top 10 most efficient players of all time.

We are saying who are the Top Ten BEST Players of all time.

Best is opinionated. You can use evidence to support your claim but at the end of the day it still is an OPINION.

 

[essential1]

i dont think you understand, anyone who knows anything about basketball has the same criteria as longstroke. By disagreeing with him it just shows your lack of knowledge for the game

How can you make such a blind statement? Anyone that knows anything about basketball has the same exact formula to rate a player's stand in history? How are you even making that statement?

No by disagreeing with him shows that I understand people have different methods of judging a player's value.

He was using sarcasm DC. You're too much of a NT Veteran to not see that one.

 

[essential1]

Triple Double

 

[essential1]

Lol at NT posting 4 times at 1 click

 

[longstroke]

But we aren't simply speaking of efficiency. The discussion isn't about who are the Top 10 most efficient players of all time.
We are saying who are the Top Ten BEST Players of all time.
Best is opinionated. You can use evidence to support your claim but at the end of the day it still is an OPINION.

No, now see you are moving the goal posts.

I've eliminated opinion from the matter at hand, then using data alone, which deals with the efficiency of a player to determine his value, if he is indeed one of the best.

Place all the data on the table, where does Kobe Bryant rank?

 

[sea manup]

How can you make such a blind statement? Anyone that knows anything about basketball has the same exact formula to rate a player's stand in history? How are you even making that statement?
No by disagreeing with him shows that I understand people have different methods of judging a player's value.

i can see you understand that, but can you understand sarcasm?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

He was using sarcasm DC. You're too much of a NT Veteran to not see that one.

My fault.

 

[sea manup]

No, now see you are moving the goal posts.

I've eliminated opinion from the matter at hand, then using data alone, which deals with the efficiency of a player to determine his value, if he is indeed one of the best.

Place all the data on the table, where does Kobe Bryant rank?

so in your opinion the efficiency of a player determines his value?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

No, now see you are moving the goal posts.

I've eliminated opinion from the matter at hand, then using data alone, which deals with the efficiency of a player to determine his value, if he is indeed one of the best.

Place all the data on the table, where does Kobe Bryant rank?

Ok well say, the most efficient players of all time is the title. That is not what the topic title mentions.

But you do know by going that route, you don't take into consideration rings, playoff success, and influence?

What are you using? PER? Efficieny rating? What?

I am not changing anything, YOU are changing the argument to Most Efficient.

 

[essential1]

NT IS KILLING ME WITH TRIPLE POSTING!

 

[essential1]

NT IS KILLING ME WITH TRIPLE POSTING!

 

[jamazing]

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest to ever play the game. Is he in the top 5? No. Is he in the top 10? Maybe. Is he the second greatest shooting guard to ever play the game? Probably, and in my opinion, yes.

Awhile back I had Jerry West at #2, but at this point Kobe Bryant has to be the second best SG of all time.

I do think many analysts overlook a lot of stats/variables with KB24. For example, shooting percentage (has never hit above 50% in his career), worst 50 point game shooting percentages in history, game 7 vs. Boston, shot selection, etc.

For the record I think Kobe is great. I'm not hating on him at all. I love NBA's rich history which is why I respect the players before him as well.