IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[pepperjackchees]

I dont see whats wrong with what I said. Mihm and Parker were not that bad. And Odom was good back then.

None of those guys besides Odom were ever "solid" with any other NBA teams and were out of the league or getting no PT pretty soon after leaving the Lakers. The fact you keep bringing up that he doesn't make his teammates better or improve their play or w/e the hell you want to call it, when stats point to the exact opposite of that being true, tells me all I need to know. That's all I'm going to add to this garbage pail of a thread.

Wrong person, papi. 

 

[dt43]

Having the willingness and longevity to play 17 (likely 1 consecutive years of a professional sport at an extremely high level is an impressive accomplishment, period. You have to acknowledge that.

I did.

Kobe isn't the only player to have come out of HS. I could take your argument and ask, if playing for 17 years at an All-Star level is so easy why aren't all the straight-to-NBA players doing it? Why aren't Tmac, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, etc still putting up All-Star numbers? The one other HS guy who is even remotely close, just so happens to be a HOFer and is also known as a tough mf'er (Garnett).

Cause a lot of them sucked and the only one besides KG who had big time talent was TMac..

other HS guys had significant injuries (McGrady) or just weren't that talented to start with to discuss

We'll have to wait and see how LeBron, Dwight, Carmelo, KD and the elite guys hold up. I bet they do..we've already seen it's already happening..


If I include Kobe this season: 14 players will have made All NBA 1st or 2nd team at age 34 or older. 9 of those have occurred in 1997 or later.

Only six All-NBA 1st Team players from 1948-1979 even had careers that lasted past age 35: Kareem, Havlicek, Hayes, Moses, Baylor, Wilt.

Conversely, 22 players that made All NBA 1st Team from 1980-2012 had careers that lasted past age 35. So, over the same time period that number almost was almost multiplied 4 times and that's with a handful of current players heading toward 35+ but not there yet (ie Dirk)

Evolution, Medicine, technology, easier travel, $ incentives - you name it. We've already seen guys play longer and I don't see why that won't continue to be the case.

which leads me back to this:

When you look at his all time ranking this has to be taken into account

What Kobe is doing is fairly rare. and it's really impressive. You and others are right - it's not just the years but how good he still is. But, It's difficult to take into account longevity now compared to then when comparing all time great players. Same resources and opportunities were not available. Numbers bear this out.

So we both agree that Kobe playing at an elite level for 17 years is impressive, what else needs to be said? I don't think humanity has reached the point yet where playing a professional sport for 17 years can be considered a walk in the park. Even when technology and medicine evolves, it will still be impressive.

We'll have to wait and see how LeBron, Dwight, Carmelo, KD and the elite guys hold up. I bet they do..we've already seen it's already happening..

We've also seen players like Wade, Amare, etc who's bodies seem to be breaking down prematurely. You mentioned Dwight, who has already begun developing back problems. Would you put your money on Dwight Howard still being the best C in the league in his 17th season (if he even plays that long)? I wouldn't. I don't know about you, but I'm not quite ready to just assume that every superstar from now on will play 17+ seasons of elite-level basketball.



You're right, it's difficult to compare longevity across eras. But what Kobe is doing is well above average relative to other players in his era. It almost sounds like you want us to temper our praise for Kobe because you're assuming Lebron, Carmelo, etc will all probably do the same thing he's doing in the future. Sorry, not going to do that. Because, as I pointed out earlier, I'm not seeing a bunch of other 17-year vets putting up All-Star numbers left and right along with Kobe, nor will I create future hypothetical ones. If Lebron, Dwight, Carmelo, and Durant all follow the same career-arc as Kobe, their longevity will be judged relative to that 2000s-2020s era. But it won't retroactively change the fact that Kobe is putting together a standout career right now.

 

[dipsetgeneral]

Overrated?!?! Been the best player in the world. Along side LeBron now. Since 03'/04' season.

There's nothin' he cant do offensively and competes every single possession and every night.

 

[the natural mystic]

How can one of the best players of all time be overrated?

What else does he have to accomplish?

Championships, MVP, Finals MVP, Olympic Champ, Scoring title, broken records and still at the top of his position and 34.

 

[goldmember]

This is what happens when some kids thought the current Kobe plays like this compared to from years ago

I mean dude is playing very efficient this year at age of 34 and we still getting this kind of thread ... SMH

 

[shoeking2101]

Don't get me wrong, he's one of the most talented perimeter players in league history but the MJ comparisons and the way he's ranked ahead of other greats like Magic and even Shaq....I don't see it.
People crucify players like Iverson and Carmelo when they pretty much have the same impact on the game and flaws as Kobe.
He has been blessed with one of the most dominant big men ever, the greatest coach ever and in the second half of his career, close to and All-Star starting lineup....take all that away and he's just another All-NBA player, not a top 10 payer ever IMO.
What makes him individually, that much greater than say....Paul Pierce?

View media item 127819

 

[mmg]

 

[shoeking2101]

Is he the best in the league right now? No.

Is he one of the 10 best ever? Yes (He's achieved it all.)

Is he the greatest Laker ever? Yes. (Really the only other one that comes close is magic but when you dive into it and see who's the better defender, scorer, etc. you can see this)

Is he one of the greatest scorers ever? Obviously.

I say there aren't that many players better than Kobe in League history aside from Jordan (if any to be honest with you). The fact that at present time, he's having his most impressive season this late in his career speaks volumes to how good he is. I would legitimately if it was up to me, say that he's behind Jordan on that best of all time list. No one else in league history has done it the way he did in the fashion that he did.

My only knock on bean would be that when he finally had a team as the top dog, he didn't make the playoffs, got bounced twice out of the first round, then asked to be traded. That same scenario was put on Tmac, VC, A.I., Paul Pierce, etc. and to my knowledge none of them went on radio and cried about a lack of help and asked to be traded. He legit couldn't get out of the first round without a hall of fame coach and the top big man in the game. That doesn't take away from how good he is, just makes his legacy a bit sketchy to me.

I also will say that the criticisms that follow A.I. (Saw a thread that said Dwade was better than him on here. Typical NT ) Carmelo, etc. probably would have followed Kobe if Pau Gasol didn't come into the picture. Funny how the NBA works. Kobe when you put it all together, is as I stated and feel, the 2nd greatest of all time. However, without the help of Shaq and especially Pau, he most likely is just another talented all star player who couldn't win.

 

[216301baller]

is this thread real

 

[denni5themenace]

the usual suspects in here

 

[do be doo]

Is he the greatest Laker ever? Yes. (Really the only other one that comes close is magic but when you dive into it and see who's the better defender, scorer, etc. you can see this)

Wrong

Magic 5 rings 3 finals MVPs

kome 5 rings 2 finals mvp ( should legit be one but whatever)

 

[mertonhanks]

When Magic and Bird retired, they were remembered for revitalizing the NBA and changing the game of basketball.

When MJ retired from the Bulls, he was remembered as the greatest to ever play the game, taking the NBA to another level.

When Kobe retires, he will be remembered for trying to be like MJ his entire career.

 

[Trillmatic90]

When Magic and Bird retired, they were remembered for revitalizing the NBA and changing the game of basketball.
When MJ retired from the Bulls, he was remembered as the greatest to ever play the game, taking the NBA to another level.
When Kobe retires, he will be remembered for trying to be like MJ his entire career.

Yea, people are just gonna skim over his 5 rings, mvp, scoring records, etc, and say "ahh, whatever...he was trying to be like Jordan"


Besides, you always wanna craft your game around those who are successful in what you do.

Every athlete has learned and implemented many things to their games that they saw from those who were successful. It's logical. You do what has proven to work.

 

[essential1]

kome 5 rings 2 finals mvp ( should legit be one but whatever)

He deserved the finals MVP in 2010.

Game 7. He shot badly. So did the entire roster for both teams.

BUT.

Still came up with most points in the game. Most points in the 4th quarter. Pulled down 15 boards, 3 times his normal rate. Found Ron Ron for that 3.


And let's not mention he had a big game in Game 6 to force a Game 7.

You always say he's selfish.. And try to discredit him in any way you can.... How selfish can the guy be, to give up the biggest shot of the entire Finals to Ron Artest.

 

[CP1708]

Don't get me wrong, he's one of the most talented perimeter players in league history but the MJ comparisons and the way he's ranked ahead of other greats like Magic and even Shaq....I don't see it.
People crucify players like Iverson and Carmelo when they pretty much have the same impact on the game and flaws as Kobe.
He has been blessed with one of the most dominant big men ever, the greatest coach ever and in the second half of his career, close to and All-Star starting lineup....take all that away and he's just another All-NBA player, not a top 10 payer ever IMO.
What makes him individually, that much greater than say....Paul Pierce?

Paul, Pierce.

Kobe Bryant, is now being compared to Paul, Pierce.


Their games are so similar. I mean, Paul clearly had the same liftt at the rim that Kobe did when they were younger.
Paul was as quick as Kobe was.
Paul had the handles Kobe did all these years.
Paul had the same range from anywhere on the court, surely.
Paul could create his shot from any angle on the floor like Kobe
Paul had the footspeed that Kobe did to guard the likes of a prime AI back in 01 and beyond
Paul was clearly as refined as Kobe was, when they were 21-22-23 and beyond.....
Paul was every bit the passer Kobe was, averaging 5 assists once in his career. Kobe has 8 such seasons, with 2 at 4.9 and he currently is at 5+ this year, which would be his 9th. (this from a career ballhog as he is known around these parts)
Paul was clearly the pure scorer that Kobe was

Pretty much the entire basketball world has Kobe somewhere within the top 5-10 basketball players of all time. But NT, NT thinks of him as nothing more than a more accomplished Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Vince Carter, T-Mac, AI, Paul Pierce, Carmelo, D-Wade, dime a dozen type perimeter players.


Magic spent his ENTIRE career with KAJ + Worthy. 2 other HOFers. As well as a HOF coach for the majority of that run.

However

NT wants to discredit Kobe for playing 6 seasons with Shaq, and 5-6+ with Pau. (I don't include the first two seasons Kobe sat on the bench in 97/9


Everyone gives Magic the credit as a top 3-5 all time player, but people are in here calling Kobe Paul ******g Pierce when Kobe is actually right in the discussion as Greatest Laker of all Time.

After this season and next, Kobe is going to be in the neighborhood of 33,000 points (3rd all time) 6,800 rebounds, 6,000 assists, 1,700 3's, 1,800 steals, and averages of 25.5, 5.3 and 4.7 with a steal and a half a game on top of being the all time leading playoff scorer, with around 6K points, and about 1,100 rebounds and assists each, in fact he could finish his career in the top 5 ALL TIME in playoff assists, behind Magic, Stockton, Nash, and maybe Kidd (whom he could surpass)


So yeah, Paul Pierce tho. Same game.

 

[ill steelo]

I was with you until you called Vince Carter, T-Mac, AI, Paul Pierce, Carmelo, D-Wade "dime a dozen type perimeter players"

 

[macc e-money]

I think he is, I mean who couldnt win rings with probably the most dominant player to ever play in Shaq. The teams he won the rings with were stacked, from coach to players. 

 

[dmvisrnb]

My only knock on bean would be that when he finally had a team as the top dog, he didn't make the playoffs, got bounced twice out of the first round, then asked to be traded. That same scenario was put on Tmac, VC, A.I., Paul Pierce, etc. and to my knowledge none of them went on radio and cried about a lack of help and asked to be traded. He legit couldn't get out of the first round without a hall of fame coach and the top big man in the game. That doesn't take away from how good he is, just makes his legacy a bit sketchy to me.

It's not that Kobe is overrated, because THAT is false.

It's just that in celebrating his accomplishments, we underrate other players.  Now, mentioning Paul Pierce in the same breath as Kobe is just laughably wrong 

 .  Kobe is vastly superior...that's not even really up for debate.

The issue is, people don't take into account how much of a factor LUCK plays into the careers and legacies of players.  If you remove Kobe from that Lakers 3-Peat squad, and he's drafted to Philly for example, with all those scrubs, they do NOT win a ring.  Kobe spends his career looking like 04-06 with awesome numbers, getting booted out the playoffs every year in the first round.  Great individual success...no team success.  If you put that same talent the Lakers had around AI at the same time...I can almost guarantee you get the same results.  People call Kobe a chucker now and he's a 5 time champion and 2 time Finals MVP.  Imagine what they would say if he spent his whole career on a not so great team with a lot of average players.  

What I'm saying is, Kobe should be celebrated for seizing his great opportunities throughout his career and maximizing it to create his great legacy.  He put in all the work, and he deserves the accolades and the praise because he DID it.  However, the table was definitely set for him...all he had to do was be as good as he actually was and the results were going to happen.  

Other players can be as good as they want to be, but your situation is your situation.  If you don't have the right situation around you, it doesn't matter how good you are.  And your legacy will suffer as a result.

 

[$tacy]

I dont think most people watched the actual playoff games in those runs wit I rememberr alot of times kobe coming up big winning games, but then again this is nt. U take kobe away from shaq theres no 3 peat u take shaq awat from kobe theres no 3 peat, they both benefited from each other.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

When Magic and Bird retired, they were remembered for revitalizing the NBA and changing the game of basketball.
When MJ retired from the Bulls, he was remembered as the greatest to ever play the game, taking the NBA to another level.
When Kobe retires, he will be remembered for trying to be like MJ his entire career.

Your point?

 

[essential1]

I think he is, I mean who couldnt win rings with probably the most dominant player to ever play in Shaq. The teams he won the rings with were stacked, from coach to players. 

Soooo Magic Johnson is overrated as well...

Yes or no?

 

[essential1]

My only knock on bean would be that when he finally had a team as the top dog, he didn't make the playoffs, got bounced twice out of the first round, then asked to be traded. That same scenario was put on Tmac, VC, A.I., Paul Pierce, etc. and to my knowledge none of them went on radio and cried about a lack of help and asked to be traded. He legit couldn't get out of the first round without a hall of fame coach and the top big man in the game. That doesn't take away from how good he is, just makes his legacy a bit sketchy to me.

Paul Pierce: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-pierce062507

" According to a league executive, Paul Pierce has finally told team management that unless the Celtics come out of this week with a talented veteran co-star for him, they should expect him to make a public declaration soon after Thursday's draft that he wants a trade."

Source: Woj


Vince Carter: 2004 his agent asked Toronto to deal him.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2004/07/31/564677.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1832996

Then a final story written by Doug Smith written in The Toronto Star

DOUG SMITH
SPORTS REPORTER

Vince Carter says it's time to go.

"It's time for the truth: I want to be traded, I'm ready to be traded," the 27-year-old Raptor all-star told the Star last night.

"First and foremost, this has nothing to do with the fans or the city, it's just time for me to look after me."

Carter, who has been the subject of intense trade rumours since the end of the season, said his decision to go public last night is because he's frustrated at the pace of trade talks the Raptors have been pursuing.

He said he's made it known to new general manager Rob Babcock and first-year head coach Sam Mitchell that he wants out of Toronto but he isn't sure they are investigating possible deals as strongly as they could be.

"I want a fair shot at being on the market and being traded and I feel I haven't had that fair shot," Carter said in a telephone interview. "This is about doing what's best for me."

Carter's desire to be dealt stems mainly from increasing frustration regarding the future of the team. If he's not dealt by the beginning of the regular season Nov. 3, he will enter his third straight season with a new head coach and second in a row with a new general manager, playing for a team that has missed the playoffs for two consecutive seasons.

"It's been since 2000 when we were on a certain level (the team advanced to the NBA Eastern Conference semifinals that season) and it's been going down since then," said Carter, who averaged more than 24 points a game for the Raptors last season when Toronto finished 33-49 and out of the playoffs.
`I can spend the rest of my career giving guys a chance. It's time to move on.'

Vince Carter

"It's time to resurrect my career."

Babcock, who took over from the fired Glen Grunwald in early June, has resisted all talk about a Carter trade since assuming his position. While it is hardly a secret that Carter's agents have pushed for a deal, Babcock has said repeatedly he wouldn't make a trade just for the sake of it and would only deal Carter if it made sense for the Raptors.

"Some people might say you're not giving these new guys a chance," Carter said. "I can spend the rest of my career giving guys a chance. It's time to move on."

Carter played in 73 of Toronto's 82 regular-season games last season and there are questions around the NBA about what his status is among the game's elite players. Three seasons ago, he was considered one of the great young players in the NBA but two injury-riddled seasons, where he had to deal with knee injuries, saw his reputation take a huge hit.

"I don't mind taking shots for this team, I know what my (reputation) was and I was the guy everyone was looking to," he said. "But it's time to worry about me. I know that sounds hard but it's how I feel."

Carter is the only high-profile Raptor player to sign a contract extension in Toronto. Unlike Tracy McGrady and Damon Stoudamire before him — two promising players who engineered their own departures — the 6-foot-7 swingman signed a six-year contract extension worth more than $90 million (all figures U.S.) after the 2000-01 season. He still has three years — plus a fourth at his option — to run on that deal and will make more than $12 million this season. The Raptors are scheduled to open training camp on Oct. 5.

Finding fair value for Carter — still considered one of the top half-dozen athletic talents in the league — will be difficult.

"I want them to get someone of fair value. ... but I'm looking for a new start for Vince right now," he said. "I've never been this way, but it's time. I've looked around at so many rosters trying to find what would help this team and it's hard."

Carter said he wouldn't want to get traded to a Western Conference team and he's not adamant about joining a club with a legitimate chance to win the NBA title any time soon.

He conceded it would be interesting to play in New York ("It's the mecca of basketball," he said) despite the presence of ex-Raptor coach Lenny Wilkens, with whom Carter clashed in 2002-03."I would love to play in Florida (where he was born and maintains an off-season home). It's just time to move."

TMac : http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1824663

Tracy McGrady, who can become a free agent next year, informed the Magic on Friday that he does not want to re-sign with the club, league sources told the Orlando Sentinel and Florida Today.

Although McGrady could not be reached for comment on Friday, he has said he would opt to leave if he didn't think the Magic could improve quickly. Orlando fell to a league-worst 21-61 record next season and has the No. 1 pick in the draft.

McGrady had hoped the team would trade the pick for veteran help, but the club wants to keep the selection. On Friday, the team worked out UConn's Emeka Okafor, and plans to do the same with high schooler Dwight Howard on Saturday. The Magic is expected to use the No. 1 pick on one of those two players.

 

[luckyp824]

I think he is, I mean who couldnt win rings with probably the most dominant player to ever play in Shaq. The teams he won the rings with were stacked, from coach to players. 

So did Shaq himself though. He won his rings with two of the best SG's of all time and two of the best coaches of all time. Is he overrated too?

 

[mjsaver]

Championships and 3peats especially are a very delicate thing, everything has to go your way for it to happen so its crazy to assume you can plug A.I. in to Kobes shoes and 5 rings and etc will suddenly appear.

There isnt a player who couldve teamed with Shaq those years and dominated the league, A.I. was too small and needed too many shots, VC wasnt polished enough, T Mac and Pierce were comparable at the time but we now know Kobes a step ahead of all those dudes.

Im not trying to discredit anybody either, 2 of those dudes are a lock for the H.O.F. but Kobe is simply better.

 

[shoeking2101]

Paul Pierce: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-pierce062507
" According to a league executive, Paul Pierce has finally told team management that unless the Celtics come out of this week with a talented veteran co-star for him, they should expect him to make a public declaration soon after Thursday's draft that he wants a trade."
Source: Woj
Vince Carter: 2004 his agent asked Toronto to deal him.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2004/07/31/564677.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1832996
Then a final story written by Doug Smith written in The Toronto Star
DOUG SMITH
SPORTS REPORTER
Vince Carter says it's time to go.

"It's time for the truth: I want to be traded, I'm ready to be traded," the 27-year-old Raptor all-star told the Star last night.
"First and foremost, this has nothing to do with the fans or the city, it's just time for me to look after me."
Carter, who has been the subject of intense trade rumours since the end of the season, said his decision to go public last night is because he's frustrated at the pace of trade talks the Raptors have been pursuing.
He said he's made it known to new general manager Rob Babcock and first-year head coach Sam Mitchell that he wants out of Toronto but he isn't sure they are investigating possible deals as strongly as they could be.

"I want a fair shot at being on the market and being traded and I feel I haven't had that fair shot," Carter said in a telephone interview. "This is about doing what's best for me."
Carter's desire to be dealt stems mainly from increasing frustration regarding the future of the team. If he's not dealt by the beginning of the regular season Nov. 3, he will enter his third straight season with a new head coach and second in a row with a new general manager, playing for a team that has missed the playoffs for two consecutive seasons.
"It's been since 2000 when we were on a certain level (the team advanced to the NBA Eastern Conference semifinals that season) and it's been going down since then," said Carter, who averaged more than 24 points a game for the Raptors last season when Toronto finished 33-49 and out of the playoffs.
`I can spend the rest of my career giving guys a chance. It's time to move on.'
Vince Carter
"It's time to resurrect my career."
Babcock, who took over from the fired Glen Grunwald in early June, has resisted all talk about a Carter trade since assuming his position. While it is hardly a secret that Carter's agents have pushed for a deal, Babcock has said repeatedly he wouldn't make a trade just for the sake of it and would only deal Carter if it made sense for the Raptors.
"Some people might say you're not giving these new guys a chance," Carter said. "I can spend the rest of my career giving guys a chance. It's time to move on."
Carter played in 73 of Toronto's 82 regular-season games last season and there are questions around the NBA about what his status is among the game's elite players. Three seasons ago, he was considered one of the great young players in the NBA but two injury-riddled seasons, where he had to deal with knee injuries, saw his reputation take a huge hit.
"I don't mind taking shots for this team, I know what my (reputation) was and I was the guy everyone was looking to," he said. "But it's time to worry about me. I know that sounds hard but it's how I feel."
Carter is the only high-profile Raptor player to sign a contract extension in Toronto. Unlike Tracy McGrady and Damon Stoudamire before him — two promising players who engineered their own departures — the 6-foot-7 swingman signed a six-year contract extension worth more than $90 million (all figures U.S.) after the 2000-01 season. He still has three years — plus a fourth at his option — to run on that deal and will make more than $12 million this season. The Raptors are scheduled to open training camp on Oct. 5.
Finding fair value for Carter — still considered one of the top half-dozen athletic talents in the league — will be difficult.
"I want them to get someone of fair value. ... but I'm looking for a new start for Vince right now," he said. "I've never been this way, but it's time. I've looked around at so many rosters trying to find what would help this team and it's hard."
Carter said he wouldn't want to get traded to a Western Conference team and he's not adamant about joining a club with a legitimate chance to win the NBA title any time soon.
He conceded it would be interesting to play in New York ("It's the mecca of basketball," he said) despite the presence of ex-Raptor coach Lenny Wilkens, with whom Carter clashed in 2002-03."I would love to play in Florida (where he was born and maintains an off-season home). It's just time to move."
TMac : http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1824663
Tracy McGrady, who can become a free agent next year, informed the Magic on Friday that he does not want to re-sign with the club, league sources told the Orlando Sentinel and Florida Today.
Although McGrady could not be reached for comment on Friday, he has said he would opt to leave if he didn't think the Magic could improve quickly. Orlando fell to a league-worst 21-61 record next season and has the No. 1 pick in the draft.
McGrady had hoped the team would trade the pick for veteran help, but the club wants to keep the selection. On Friday, the team worked out UConn's Emeka Okafor, and plans to do the same with high schooler Dwight Howard on Saturday. The Magic is expected to use the No. 1 pick on one of those two players.

I think you missed my point. My point was that Kobe asked to be traded and couldn't win when he was was "by himself." To me, this is a stain on his legacy but most seem to completely overlook it. The fact that he on two different occasions during his career had to bring in the most skilled and dominant big men in the league in order to win accounts for something in my book. His career is regarded as being so much better than the paul pierce's, Allen Iverson's, and T-Mac's of the world and chances are, if he didn't have those circumstances in his career he would be more than likely just like them.

It's not that Kobe is overrated, because THAT is false.

It's just that in celebrating his accomplishments, we underrate other players.  Now, mentioning Paul Pierce in the same breath as Kobe is just laughably wrong   .  Kobe is vastly superior...that's not even really up for debate.

The issue is, people don't take into account how much of a factor LUCK plays into the careers and legacies of players.  If you remove Kobe from that Lakers 3-Peat squad, and he's drafted to Philly for example, with all those scrubs, they do NOT win a ring.  Kobe spends his career looking like 04-06 with awesome numbers, getting booted out the playoffs every year in the first round.  Great individual success...no team success.  If you put that same talent the Lakers had around AI at the same time...I can almost guarantee you get the same results.  People call Kobe a chucker now and he's a 5 time champion and 2 time Finals MVP.  Imagine what they would say if he spent his whole career on a not so great team with a lot of average players.  

What I'm saying is, Kobe should be celebrated for seizing his great opportunities throughout his career and maximizing it to create his great legacy.  He put in all the work, and he deserves the accolades and the praise because he DID it.  However, the table was definitely set for him...all he had to do was be as good as he actually was and the results were going to happen.  

Other players can be as good as they want to be, but your situation is your situation.  If you don't have the right situation around you, it doesn't matter how good you are.  And your legacy will suffer as a result.

Completely agree with you homie, 99% percent. (Only part I disagree with is that Kobe is a VASTLY superior talent than Paul Pierce and that there's no debate to that)

But You are 100% right on everything else. Luck has played a huge part in his legacy, it plays a huge part in almost everybody's legacy. Circumstance dictates everything. Kobe is a superstar talent, but so is all the other aforementioned players in this thread. The difference? Obviously the teams and the players that he was fortunate enough to play with. He could have easily became a 15 to 17 ppg player on championship teams who never reached his maximum potential. The greatness in him is that he far superseded that.

In my opinion Kobe is not 5 championships, 2 finals mvps, etc. better than those players. He may be better than those guys, but not by a large margin at all. His circumstance and fortune is what separated him. The question now is that does his fortune make him overrated? Because Without a doubt his talent isn't.