IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

Manu and Tony are BOTH basketball Hall of Famers. Slap whoever told you otherwise.
 
There are differences between more accomplished players and who are better basketball players.

Tim Duncan vs Kobe is actually a good example. Kobe is going to go down as a more accomplished player (perhaps by a lot), but who do you take at their peak? (I don't think there is a wrong answer). Duncan spent 4 years in school that were not necessary and his clock started running earlier than Kobe's, so despite still going somewhat strong now at 36 - the numbers, awards and honors won't be the same.


The longevity thing can get over blown if we don't view it in proper context. We're only now seeing the initial High School imports hit the back end of their careers. KG is not on Kobe's level at this point but he's also playing really strong in his 18th year and very well may have been the best center in the league at the end of his 17th season. Is LeBron still going to be a Top 10 player in the league 7 years from now? I'm inclined to say yes. Is Dwight still one of the top 2-3 centers in 8 years? I'd say yes. other HS guys had significant injuries (McGrady) or just weren't that talented to start with to discuss. Even the one and dones - anyone think that guys like KD and Carmelo still won't be piling up the points when they hit that point?

Shaq won his 4th title 17 years removed from HS, but I never hear anyone bring up his longevity despite being 7'2 320 lbs. He's probably criticized for it more than anything. Hell, 20 years removed from HS he was 17 and 8. MJ 17 years removed from HS won #6 in '98. Kareem's longevity is well documented (and insane considering he was in school for 4 years and no doubt would have been HS To NBA had he came along 30 years later).

That's not tosay I'm not extremely impressed that Kobe has held up this well, but HS to NBA dynamic adds a twist. NBA season is more taxing than a college one for sure, but years are years. Not like guys in college put the ball away during summer months and didn't train. You give some of those guys 2-3, even 4 more NBA years and numbers and do things look differently?
 
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LA KB24 said:
@ Do Be Doo

View media item 143780
*this pic is old so kobe needs more awards in here*
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shaq_kobe.jpg
 
Well for the sake of arguing.

Dirk Nowitzki. Regular season MVP. Finals MVP. One of the GOAT playoff runs ever. Never missed a playoff. One of four players to average 26 ppg and 10 rbg in the playoffs. Never played with a HOF in his prime. Top 5 shooters of all time. GOAT European player. Clutch performer. Ultra efficient. All by himself.
 
Addict4Sneakers said:
Well for the sake of arguing.
Dirk Nowitzki. Regular season MVP. Finals MVP. One of the GOAT playoff runs ever. Never missed a playoff. One of four players to average 26 ppg and 10 rbg in the playoffs. Never played with a HOF in his prime. Top 5 shooters of all time. GOAT European player. Clutch performer. Ultra efficient. All by himself.
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It's funny if you think not for some suspect refing Dirk might have two rings basically all by himself...easily the most underrated HOF'er of this generation and probably the most efficient isolation scorer since Jordan.
 
Al3xis said:
There are differences between more accomplished players and who are better basketball players.

Tim Duncan vs Kobe is actually a good example. Kobe is going to go down as a more accomplished player (perhaps by a lot), but who do you take at their peak? (I don't think there is a wrong answer). Duncan spent 4 years in school that were not necessary and his clock started running earlier than Kobe's, so despite still going somewhat strong now at 36 - the numbers, awards and honors won't be the same.


The longevity thing can get over blown if we don't view it in proper context. We're only now seeing the initial High School imports hit the back end of their careers. KG is not on Kobe's level at this point but he's also playing really strong in his 18th year and very well may have been the best center in the league at the end of his 17th season. Is LeBron still going to be a Top 10 player in the league 7 years from now? I'm inclined to say yes. Is Dwight still one of the top 2-3 centers in 8 years? I'd say yes. other HS guys had significant injuries (McGrady) or just weren't that talented to start with to discuss. Even the one and dones - anyone think that guys like KD and Carmelo still won't be piling up the points when they hit that point?

Shaq won his 4th title 17 years removed from HS, but I never hear anyone bring up his longevity despite being 7'2 320 lbs. He's probably criticized for it more than anything. Hell, 20 years removed from HS he was 17 and 8. MJ 17 years removed from HS won #6 in '98. Kareem's longevity is well documented (and insane considering he was in school for 4 years and no doubt would have been HS To NBA had he came along 30 years later).

That's not tosay I'm not extremely impressed that Kobe has held up this well, but HS to NBA dynamic adds a twist. NBA season is more taxing than a college one for sure, but years are years. Not like guys in college put the ball away during summer months and didn't train. You give some of those guys 2-3, even 4 more NBA years and numbers and do things look differently?
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"Removed from HS".. come on now, are we going to pretend that college ball is as taxing as being a fulltime professional basketball player in the NBA? That is hardly an argument.

I see what you're getting at, but everything you said essentially amounts to speculation and hypotheticals. So we should discount Kobe because you *think* Lebron, Durant, and Melo, etc will be doing the same thing in their 17th season? How do we even know if they'll care enough to play that long? That's tantamount to saying "Jordan's 6 rings aren't that impressive guys, Lebron will probably finish with 7 or 8".. I'm just saying, that's what that sounds like. You can't take credit away from someone has actually done, just because you *think* someone else will do it.

The fact of the matter is that Kobe Bryant IS in his 17th season (with a LOT of mileage + injuries), and is still playing at a very high level.. if there is a long list of scoring guards who have done that, let me know.

As for Kobe and Duncan, both players have managed to carve out their own unique and incredibly successful legacies, and both are all-time greats. That's all that needs to be said in a discussion like this.
 
worldbeefreeg said:
Addict4Sneakers said:
Well for the sake of arguing.
Dirk Nowitzki. Regular season MVP. Finals MVP. One of the GOAT playoff runs ever. Never missed a playoff. One of four players to average 26 ppg and 10 rbg in the playoffs. Never played with a HOF in his prime. Top 5 shooters of all time. GOAT European player. Clutch performer. Ultra efficient. All by himself.
Click to expand...

It's funny if you think not for some suspect refing Dirk might have two rings basically all by himself...easily the most underrated HOF'er of this generation and probably the most efficient isolation scorer since Jordan.
Click to expand...
You give him all the credit for that ring, then I'll give him all the blame for losing in the first round after winning 67 games, culminating in a 8 point (2/13 FG) performance in the last game.

He isn't underrated at all.
 
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Ask any NBA coach or player if Kobe is overrated.  You "fans" are straight comedy when it comes to trying to discredit players.
 
ill steelo said:
You give him all the credit for that ring, then I'll give him all the blame for losing in the first round after winning 67 games, culminating in a 8 point (2/13 FG) performance in the last game.
He isn't underrated at all.
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You're probably right. But both Duncan and Kobe also bowed out in the first round; Duncan's spurs were also a #1 seed and Kobe's Lakers blew a 3-1 lead.
 
DT43 said:
"Removed from HS".. come on now, are we going to pretend that college ball is as taxing as being a fulltime professional basketball player in the NBA? That is hardly an argument.
I see what you're getting at, but everything you said essentially amounts to speculation and hypotheticals. So we should discount Kobe because you *think* Lebron, Durant, and Melo, etc will be doing the same thing in their 17th season? How do we even know if they'll care enough to play that long? That's tantamount to saying "Jordan's 6 rings aren't that impressive guys, Lebron will probably finish with 7 or 8".. I'm just saying, that's what that sounds like. You can't take credit away from someone has actually done, just because you *think* someone else will do it.
The fact of the matter is that Kobe Bryant IS in his 17th season (with a LOT of mileage + injuries), and is still playing at a very high level.. if there is a long list of scoring guards who have done that, let me know.
As for Kobe and Duncan, both players have managed to carve out their own unique and incredibly successful legacies, and both are all-time greats. That's all that needs to be said in a discussion like this.
Click to expand...

People in here said name anyone else doing this or had done it - well -- To me, It's stupid to ignore a part of the reason why his longevity in a number is greater than others when they were not afforded the same opportunity. He didn't spend years of his basketball life in college. Same goes for those coming up behind him.

And I prefaced it by saying...we're only now seeing the HS kids and one and dones start to even get close to ending their careers. If Kobe ends up being one of the few that have this longevity - more power to him. I do really doubt that will be the case. today's athlete also has the benefits of medicine and technology which we've already seen help prolong peaks of careers (pretty sure he's said as much himself with the Germany stuff) and will even help out others further in the future.

I also said an NBA season is more taxing. But again, those kids weren't sitting in hyperbaric chambers for 2, 3, 4 years. They were playing games, traveling, waking up at 5am, etc and turned a new age each time the calendar hit a date.

This isn't even about Kobe so much as the generation. I won't be sitting here 10 years from now when LeBron is a Top 5 scorer, Top 10 in assists, Top 50 in boards, Top 20 in steals - and say that's why he's better than player X because there is a caveat it to it. KG is probably going to finish Top 10 in points, Top 20 in boards, Top 50 in assists and Top 15 in both steals and blocks - staggering stuff...but I don't consider him even a Top 30 player of all time.
 
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when Kobe retires everybody will worship him like they do Jordan, he's definetely going down as one of the greatest Shooting Guards of all time.
 
It's 17 years and he's the best player at his position...

That's more than longevity...

17 years is a long damn time.. If you are 1 and done. That's to age 35-36. Very few players are best at their position and top 10 currently in the league (at worst) at 35-36.


Could Lebron? Yes, he'd have to reinvent his game along the way, which he's starting to do (to Lebron's credit).


What Kobe's doing is not normal at all.
 
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Tha Flashy One said:
when Kobe retires everybody will worship him like they do Jordan, he's definetely going down as one of the greatest Shooting Guards of all time.
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I think once he retires a lot of people will go from saying he's top 10 to top 5.
 
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Addict4Sneakers said:
ill steelo said:
You give him all the credit for that ring, then I'll give him all the blame for losing in the first round after winning 67 games, culminating in a 8 point (2/13 FG) performance in the last game.
He isn't underrated at all.
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You're probably right. But both Duncan and Kobe also bowed out in the first round; Duncan's spurs were also a #1 seed and Kobe's Lakers blew a 3-1 lead.
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Dirk had just won the MVP award & won the most games of any team since the '96 Bulls.

That isn't comparable to what happened to Duncan or Kobe in those years at all.

Neither one of those guys ever lost in the first round in their primes with homecourt advantage.

Duncan was 34 years old & far far away from his peak, particularly in that year, & those Laker teams were only competitive because Kobe had the most prolific scoring season since Jordan in '88, and even with that they were still only a 7th seed.
 
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Al3xis said:
DT43 said:
"Removed from HS".. come on now, are we going to pretend that college ball is as taxing as being a fulltime professional basketball player in the NBA? That is hardly an argument.
I see what you're getting at, but everything you said essentially amounts to speculation and hypotheticals. So we should discount Kobe because you *think* Lebron, Durant, and Melo, etc will be doing the same thing in their 17th season? How do we even know if they'll care enough to play that long? That's tantamount to saying "Jordan's 6 rings aren't that impressive guys, Lebron will probably finish with 7 or 8".. I'm just saying, that's what that sounds like. You can't take credit away from someone has actually done, just because you *think* someone else will do it.
The fact of the matter is that Kobe Bryant IS in his 17th season (with a LOT of mileage + injuries), and is still playing at a very high level.. if there is a long list of scoring guards who have done that, let me know.
As for Kobe and Duncan, both players have managed to carve out their own unique and incredibly successful legacies, and both are all-time greats. That's all that needs to be said in a discussion like this.
Click to expand...

People in here said name anyone else doing this or had done it - well -- To me, It's stupid to ignore a part of the reason why his longevity in a number is greater than others when they were not afforded the same opportunity. He didn't spend years of his basketball life in college. Same goes for those coming up behind him.

And I prefaced it by saying...we're only now seeing the HS kids and one and dones start to even get close to ending their careers. If Kobe ends up being one of the few that have this longevity - more power to him. I do really doubt that will be the case. today's athlete also has the benefits of medicine and technology which we've already seen help prolong peaks of careers (pretty sure he's said as much himself with the Germany stuff) and will even help out others further in the future.

I also said an NBA season is more taxing. But again, those kids weren't sitting in hyperbaric chambers for 2, 3, 4 years. They were playing games, traveling, waking up at 5am, etc and turned a new age each time the calendar hit a date.

This isn't even about Kobe so much as the generation. I won't be sitting here 10 years from now when LeBron is a Top 5 scorer, Top 10 in assists, Top 50 in boards, Top 20 in steals - and say that's why he's better than player X because there is a caveat it to it. KG is probably going to finish Top 10 in points, Top 20 in boards, Top 50 in assists and Top 15 in both steals and blocks - staggering stuff...but I don't consider him even a Top 30 player of all time.
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Again, I see what you're saying but it just isn't that relevant here. It's not just about total stats accumulated. Having the willingness and longevity to play 17 (likely 18) consecutive years of a professional sport at an extremely high level is an impressive accomplishment, period. You have to acknowledge that.

Kobe isn't the only player to have come out of HS. I could take your argument and ask, if playing for 17 years at an All-Star level is so easy why aren't all the straight-to-NBA players doing it? Why aren't Tmac, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, etc still putting up All-Star numbers? The one other HS guy who is even remotely close, just so happens to be a HOFer and is also known as a tough mf'er (Garnett).

If Lebron, Durant, and Melo (esp Melo) are still putting up elite numbers in their 17th seasons, I would be extremely impressed. I'm not going to diminish playing for 17 years in the NBA until I've adequately been convinced that it isn't a big deal, and that time hasn't come yet. Soo as of right now, playing 17 straight years of a professional sport at a high level always has been and will remain pretty damn impressive to me. If in the future everyone ends up playing 17+ years because of advances in technology, that still doesn't diminish Kobe's greatness because he would have done it without those later innovations.

And you wouldn't have KG in your top 30, really? I'm not even sure if you actually meant that or you just threw a number out there.. I'd bet at least 90% of NBA fans would have KG in their top 30 all time - and his longevity would certainly come up as one of the reasons.
 
ill steelo said:
Dirk had just won the MVP award & won the most games of any team since the '96 Bulls.
That isn't comparable to what happened to Duncan or Kobe in those years at all.
Neither one of those guys ever lost in the first round in their primes with homecourt advantage.
Duncan was 34 years old & far far away from his peak, particularly in that year, & those Laker teams were only competitive because Kobe had the most prolific scoring season since Jordan in '88, and even with that they were still only a 7th seed.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. That laker team was bad. Duncan was old and ginobili was injured.

But blowing a 3-1 lead and tanking the second half of game 7 is as bad as Dirk against the Warriors IMO.

I'm not calling Kobe overrated. I'm arguing that individually you can make a case for dirk and Duncan being as good or better that decade.
 
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