IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[member 2323]

why is it that the lakers are the only team that has been deemed stacked? EVERY team who has won a title could be deemed "stacked" by peoples definition in here.
you people are all over the place trying to discredit kobe bryant
most of you hate the guy because the lakers rolled all over your teams many years ago.
time to let it go...

Wow. I'm going to try to stop replying to all you Lakers fans. Your questions are honestly beyond terrible...

NOBODY HERE IS SAYING THAT CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS AREN'T STACKED.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT THE 2012 HEAT, 2011 MAVS, 2008 CELTICS, 2007/2005/2003 SPURS, 2006 HEAT, 2004 PISTONS, ETC. WEREN'T STACKED.

WE ARE SAYING THAT A LOT OF INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS THAT ARE BETTER THAN BEAN BRYANT DIDN'T HAVE STACKED TEAMS THROUGHOUT THEIR CAREERS.

Maybe if you guys had the capacity to understand English, you'd better understand our points.

 

[member 2323]

Motivating teammates? The Redeem Team would like to speak to you. Durant, LeBron, etc. have all gone on record saying that playing and witnessing Kobe's worth ethic and competitive nature helped motivate them. Look up the shooting routine he gave Ariza (he calls it the 'Bible'). Actually look up what Ariza's done since he left Kobe. Look up Farmar, Sasha, Mihm, Walton, Odom, etc. Correlation is not causation but in more than a handful of cases, you can definitively say players were much more effective while playing on Bean's team.

You guys keep naming players that were scrubs on L.A., scrubs off L.A.

Not to mention, there is no criteria for your claims. What made ANY of those players better in L.A. than anywhere else?

Wanna talk about how these guys had some of their worst years playing with Bean?

Ron Artest

Matt Barnes

Ramon Sessions

Caron Butler

Dwight Howard

Antawn Jamison

"Look at what Ariza has done without Kobe."

What was he supposed to do on those trash teams?

Hey, I have a good question:

Look at what Kobe has done without Phil Jackson.

 

[member 2323]

Motivating teammates? The Redeem Team would like to speak to you. Durant, LeBron, etc. have all gone on record saying that playing and witnessing Kobe's worth ethic and competitive nature helped motivate them. Look up the shooting routine he gave Ariza (he calls it the 'Bible'). Actually look up what Ariza's done since he left Kobe. Look up Farmar, Sasha, Mihm, Walton, Odom, etc. Correlation is not causation but in more than a handful of cases, you can definitively say players were much more effective while playing on Bean's team.

You guys keep naming players that were scrubs on L.A., scrubs off L.A.

Not to mention, there is no criteria for your claims. What made ANY of those players better in L.A. than anywhere else?

Wanna talk about how these guys had some of their worst years playing with Bean?

Ron Artest

Matt Barnes

Ramon Sessions

Caron Butler

Dwight Howard

Antawn Jamison

Troy Murphy

Steve Blake

"Look at what Ariza has done without Kobe."

What was he supposed to do on those trash teams?

Hey, I have a good question:

Look at what Kobe has done without Phil Jackson.

 

[noblekane]

Nah, its an anti Kobe thread, they can post whatever they want and its accepted. Welcomed even.

exactly. some of the stuff being brought up to discredit the guy is absolutely ridiculous

from being a rapist to not being better than jordan to not being able to fight

is this niketalk or nikepark?

 

[member 2323]

Stroke, do me a favor, compile a list for me.
Top 5 all scoring + top 15 steals + top 35 assists + 6,000+ rebounds for a career.
Tell me how many players, in the history of the NBA, are on that list.
The answer?
2.
Take a guess which 2 those are.
I got more for you, don't go nowhere.
Playoffs. All time.
Top 3 scoring. Top 7 assists. Top 30 rebounds.
If he were to play this year and next, and play saaaayyyy, 2-3 series. Say he's out in the first round both years, or he makes the second-third round this year, he will finish like this
#1 all time scoring, top 5 assists, top 20-25 rebounds.
All time.
With career averages, both regular season, and playoff, of nearly 25/5/5 with a steal a game, over the course of about......say 13-14 hundred games.
The only other player that can those same things? Michael Jordan.
Certainly no one is saying Kobe is better, or has surpassed Mike, not sayin that, what I am sayin, is NO OTHER NBA PLAYER IN HISTORY would have put that resume, next to Kobe and Mike. No one else.
There are currently ZERO players in NBA history with 6,000 career playoff points, 1,000 rebounds, and 1,000 assists.
Kobe is 360 points away and 60 assists away from 6,000, 1,100, and 1,100.
Kobe and Mike are the only 2 with 5,000, 1,000 and 1,000.
Now, how would you like to spin this one? More tales about George Mikan for us? Some Dr J stories? If Tracy McGrady never got hurt, he woulda........? The floor is yours, please, spin away.

These are all longevity stats. Nothing more.

Do you not understand that Kobe Bryant is going to rack up more playoff assists than guys that are infinitely greater passes simply because he's been on stacked teams, thus playing a lot of playoff games?

He's never averaged 7 rebounds per game in a single season.

He's never averaged over 6 assists a game in a single season, despite playing with the best big man and having the ball in his hand the majority of the time.

He's never shot 47% in a season.

These are all quantity stats, not DOMINANCE stats.

 

[noblekane]

You're awful. AWFUL.

.

no YOU are awful. homeboy do you even sleep? round the clock in here. all of your posts are about kobe. matter a fact all are in this thread.

its like you dream of kobe bryant. you refer to him as "bean" like you know him personally... so do you?.

its sad that your only pupose on niketalk is to devote your time talking about somebody you despise so much.

if this all you contribute to niketalk then friend i think you need to get a life...

seriously...

 

[darthdeezy]

Why is it "Kobe was fortunate enough to play with talent all his career"?
Im sure if you asked all the players he has played with they would all say THEY were fortunate to play with Kobe.
Hes respected by other professionals.
Why he cant be respected by nobody's on a message board like NT is beyond me.

 

[member 2323]

I'm sorry but it's crazy that what Longstroke is doing here is not considered trolling at this point. This may have started out as a thread for basketball discussion, but now its obvious dude is just trying to rile people up starting the same unoriginal arguments that have been going on for over 30 pages now. It's pretty ridiculous.

Maybe the arguments are "unoriginal" because they're facts.

There's no defending his AVERAGE career shooting %.

There's no defending the 2012-2013 season.

There's no defending the fact that he's had 13 championship teams and only won 5 times, which makes him a career under-achiever.

I could keep going on, but Lakers fans would rather resort to calling the arguments "unoriginal" rather than actually addressing the valid points contained in these arguments.

 

[member 2323]

 Kobe was the only reason we were even in this game.

Dwight Howard, 8/11.

Kobe Bryant, 10/24.

What's been happening on the floor speaks for itself. Now consider what they're all saying about it. All of these things were said within moments of each other Thursday night:

Howard: "We've still got to work on our rotations on defense. It's something we've got to work on in practice."

D'Antoni: "We have our schemes in place."

***​

Kobe Bryant: "I'll take control of the ball a little bit more. I'm going to play more of a striker position."

Howard: "On the offensive end, we've got to move the ball, we've got to share it."

***​

This back-and-forth with Howard:
Q: Do you feel comfortable in the offense right now?
A: When they call on me, I'm ready.
Q: Is your role clear-cut?
A: Is my role clear-cut? Uhh, we'll see.
Q: How are you most comfortable being utilized right now?
A: How am I most comfortable? Give me the ball.
Q: Where?
A: What do you mean where?
Q: Where do you want the ball?
A: That's obvious, on the block. Where else? I'm not a 3-point specialist.
Q: Pick-and-roll? Dive?
A: On the block.

That "why" has developed into an enigma that has been the most compelling adventure so far this season. The riddle could go something like this: When does a no- brainer actually become a no-brainer?

There's an underlying message here.

I have NEVER been fooled by this riddle.

Wanna know why?

Because I have a brain.

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-121213/daily-dime

 

[member 2323]

This is the stupidest thing I read on NT all week. Fake back spasms? You think Kobe is gonna go through the trouble of wrapping a brace around his back just because he wants people to think he only lost cause of his back pain? You guys have so much hate for Kobe that you become delusional.

But Paul Pierce "faked an injury to look like a superhero."

In the NBA Finals.

Paul Pierce, a real *****, took himself out of the NBA Finals so he could come back later and look like a superhero.

But Kobe Bryant, a complete pansy, would never "go through the trouble of wrapping a brace around his back just because he wants people to think he only lost cause of his back pain" in a regular season game.

Yeah, okay.

 

[member 2323]

He played well so he was obviously faking an injury?

Come on...
His whole career has been him playing through injuries..

He played well.

This is the problem... you guys let this guy shoot 41% with 5 turnovers while alienating his teammates in exchange for personal recognition...

then you guys say "he played well."

Unbelievable.

 

[CP1708]

I couldn't get to this last night, but let's talk.
TMac? TMac didn't have help? He didn't have anyone around him? Hmmm, did he, or did he not leave HIS OWN COUSIN Vince Carter when they were still both very young, and up and coming? Tracy did that, yes? And he did that, why? To sign with Grant Hill, and they hoped Tim Duncan, but Tim stayed put. Then Hill broke down, and Orlando nabbed Dwight Howard. What did Tracy do? He left again. To join Yao, and then Ron. And in the end, Tracy's body broke down. This is TRACY'S fault for leaving Vince in the first place, don't you think? And he left to join other stars, some bad breaks, and then he left the #1 pick to join another. Poor Tracy?
Pierce had Toine, which is, meh, and since 07 has had KG, Ray, Rondo, and whoever else goes thru Boston now. Paul ain't hurtin. His career is split right down the middle just fine. He and Toine went to the ECF too, and almost made the finals in 02.
Vince? His own cousin left him, he went and played with Kidd and the Nets, did nothin. Tried Phoenix, nothin. Joined Dwight in Orlando comin out of the Finals, and do I really need to inset my favorite gif here to show how that went? Now he's in Dallas after they won a title, and has done nothing. Vince has had talent around him always, he just has a vag where his balls should be.
Pretty sure you can take Lebron off this list now dude, his first 5 years, no doubt, he's makin up for it now.
Majority of their careers? You did your homework before you typed all this garbage, cuz I just broke it down in 8 minutes without even looking it all up. Let me guess, because they didn't get to play with Shaq, one player, they were never "stacked" but Kobe was, cuz he had Shaq, and as stated by you people now, Shaq = stacked.
Wow.

Wow! The fact that you're REALLY try to compare ANY of those players with Kobe's teams is laughable. So you're telling me Tmac's PRIME years in Orlando he had help? This is TOO much. Just stop! Next thing you know, you'll tell me Tmac had Patrick Ewing and Shawn Kemp as his "star" players

You think if Tmac in his prime played with DWIGHT in his PRIME, he would've left? OF COURSE he didn't want to play with a UNKNOWN high school rookie. I LOVE how you try to make it SEEM SOOOOO glamorous with the "# 1 pick" talk as if he was a Lebron or Tim Duncan who was ready to do IMMEDIATE help. Dwight was a PROJECT coming out so STOP that nonsense.


Basically, you wrote ALL that garbage yet you're missing ONE key thing...when these OTHER guys EVENTUALLY got some help, they were ALL past their prime with the exception of Bron and well, we all know how THAT turned out. I'm sure if Vince had Dwight when they were both in their primes, results would've been A LOT different.

Stop acting like Kobe hasn't been SUPER fortunate, seriously.

Trust, I'm pretty sure what I pointed out to you went over your head.

I did not say TMac had the same help as Kobe, that's not my point, my point was, he LEFT VC (help) to go to Orlando and join Grant, and he hoped Tim (help). Grant got hurt, that's bad luck, and then they got the #1 pick and he bounced right away and left again.

Point is, stop crying about Help, when TMAC left an in his prime VC, TRIED to join other help which didn't work out, no blame there, and then left AGAIN when the number 1 pick came along.

Tracy HAD help, if he just simply stayed in Toronto, maybe he and Vince figure things out. Maybe when Tracy's game really exploded, he coulda been the 1, and Vince the #2 option. But he didn't wait for that, he just bounced to join Grant and Duncan. (one of the biggest what ifs in all of the NBA, they woulda been the Heat, before the Heat.....well, provided Hill was luckier health wise)

 

[member 2323]

So missing the main facilitator on offense in Nash and their starting power forward in Gasol has nothing to do with the Laker's recent struggles? How about the fact that Pringles is still running the same poor offensive scheme that got him fired when he was coaching the Knicks (i.e. iso one on one basketball). Are you really gonna disregard all of that and put the blame purely on Kobe.

But when Gasol was playing, you guys wanted him traded.

The struggles were his fault.

Now that it's been exposed that the struggles WEREN'T his fault, try to find the next guy.

You guys will go up and down every member of that organization and take turns on who to point the finger at... but it's NEVER Kobe, although it IS Kobe in reality.

If it's not Gasol, it's Dwight. Then Metta. Then Blake. Then Brown. Then Buss. Then D'Antoni. Then the bench.

Never Kobe.

 

[CP1708]

This member2323 dude has 67 posts, and about 15 of them last night, in this thread.

Lookin a lot like a new account just to do some trollin, don't it? What's your other SN, you can tell us homie, nobody will see.


Eh, 40 of his 68 posts are in here.

 

[nick3232]

Why are you guys even argueing Kobe is the goat next to Jordan,period I am not gonna respond to any replys

 

[va757va]

Bet majority of the kobe fans in this forum wants this thread closed. LOL
 

nope...as a kobe fan this thread is great...

it separates the haves from the have nots in  terms of bball knowledge......

really surprised at the amount of have nots....between this and the dwade is #3 SG thread i really questions ALOT of yalls bball knowledge...

 

[ag 47]

But Paul Pierce "faked an injury to look like a superhero."

Don't think he "faked" it persay...but I do feel like it was exaggerated to superhero proportions.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="Member 2323"]Maybe if you guys had the capacity to understand English, you'd better understand our points.
[/quote]*warned* Keep the discussion about Kobe, not members.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="mikedamz"]he's just a talented volume scorer who has a hero ballhoging mentality fortunate enough to play with some of the great players of his gen.[/quote]Agreed.[quote name="mikedamz"]He molded his style to greatest player to ever play [/quote]No, he didn't mold his style to Magic, but I hear ya.[quote name="mikedamz"]that is why he's been rubbed with greatness[/quote]'S about it.

 

[noblekane]

Why are you guys even argueing Kobe is the goat next to Jordan,period I am not gonna respond to any replys

ehhh i wouldnt say hes number 2 but probably in top 10 but thats my opinion... maybe even top 5 but thats based off the players i have actually seen play.

 

[essential1]

He played well so he was obviously faking an injury?

Come on...

His whole career has been him playing through injuries..

He played well.

This is the problem... you guys let this guy shoot 41% with 5 turnovers while alienating his teammates in exchange for personal recognition...

then you guys say "he played well."

Unbelievable.

31-10-6.... But sure I guess if he score 39 - 15 - 12 that would be great.

But I said well... If 31-10 - 6 and bringing your team back from down 20 to a game that was decided in the last 3 minutes is not "well" then he could go 50-10-10 and you would still say that isn't a well played game.

 

[mertonhanks]

Regarding last nights game. In the second quarter, there was a string of about 4 or 5 possessions in row where Kobe touched the ball, didnt even look to pass, and forced up horrible highly contested jumpshots that all missed. Yes, he made some tough shots in the 4th quarter and the Lakers made a run. But too often, many Kobe fans let a few nice tough jumpshots overshadow an entire bad quarter like the one Kobe had yesterday. Then they come on and post his stats and say " He Played Well"

 

[acbboyz84]

Lol alotttttt is an understatement bro

 

[onetrust]

Trust, I'm pretty sure what I pointed out to you went over your head.
I did not say TMac had the same help as Kobe, that's not my point, my point was, he LEFT VC (help) to go to Orlando and join Grant, and he hoped Tim (help). Grant got hurt, that's bad luck, and then they got the #1 pick and he bounced right away and left again.
Point is, stop crying about Help, when TMAC left an in his prime VC, TRIED to join other help which didn't work out, no blame there, and then left AGAIN when the number 1 pick came along.
Tracy HAD help, if he just simply stayed in Toronto, maybe he and Vince figure things out. Maybe when Tracy's game really exploded, he coulda been the 1, and Vince the #2 option. But he didn't wait for that, he just bounced to join Grant and Duncan. (one of the biggest what ifs in all of the NBA, they woulda been the Heat, before the Heat.....well, provided Hill was luckier health wise)

You're talking in hindsight right now. Also, the way you say "and then he got the # 1 pick and bounced right away" is making it seem like, "oh grant got injured one year and they got the number one pick right away" Stop. He went through YEARS of having a bum ole squad and THEN eventually got the # 1 pick which was too late at that point. Naturally, he wasn't going to wait around to see if a HIGH SCHOOL kid named Dwight Howard would actually become something or would he be another Korleone Young or big bust Eddy Curry.

Tmac already didn't like living in Toronto so having a chance to go back to his home state playing alongside THE top wing player at that time was a no brainer.

Again, you're missing the point, Like EVERYONE and their mama has said, "kobe has been FORTUNATE to have had help THROUGHOUT his career." Tmac had help that one year in Toronto and then didn't see help again until he was past his prime which is WHY people say Kobe has been fortunate but you Kobe fans seem to think it's the MOST negative thing to say when it's the ABSOLUTE truth! Why you don't get that, I don't understand.

 

[junglejim]

Again, you're missing the point, Like EVERYONE and their mama has said, "kobe has been FORTUNATE to have had help THROUGHOUT his career." Tmac had help that one year in Toronto and then didn't see help again until he was past his prime which is WHY people say Kobe has been fortunate but you Kobe fans seem to think it's the MOST negative thing to say when it's the ABSOLUTE truth!

What the hell are you considering Tmac's prime?  The dude left orlando and went to the Rockets when he was 25 where he played with Yao, Dikembe, Mike James, David Wesley, Juwan Howard.  The reason why he didn't have help in his "prime" is because his prime lasted four years.  Tmac wasn't misfortunate because he didn't have help, he was misfortunate because he didn't take care of his body and got awful back injuries.  He didn't do jack with help and he didn't do jack without help.  He was a perennial first round bye who had great stats during the season and couldn't get it done in the post season.  Yao was the second best center in the league when Tmac got there.