IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[longstroke]

We're not arguing about who is the best all around player are we? 

Top ten players should be the best all around players, shouldn't they? Or do you think that only scorers should be considered top ten greats? Wilt was an all round player, as was Russ. Oscar was a walking triple double, and Kareem was a defensive stalwart, along with being an offensive force. Doc did it all, and as I stated before, he carried not one, but TWO leagues, while being at the top in rebounding and scoring in both the NBA, and ABA. What you are now seeing with LeBron, is a COMPLETE player, especially since his post game has vastly improved.

Kobe Bryant is not in that company, so how can he legitimately be a top ten player? Kidd, while not putting up forty, is a much more efficient player, and there is no doubt about that. With weapons, he is lethal. Give him the weapons that Kobe has had over the years, we'd definitely have him in the Magic Johnson category.

Here look up the opponent that the Nets played to get to the 2002 NBA Finals. LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NBA_Playoffs
Look at the team the Lakers had to beat to get to Finals in the same year.
Now remind you that the Nets got SWEPT in the Finals lol.
If the Lakers and Nets were to switch division. The Nets would be a 2nd round exit team and the Lakers would have easily sweep every other East team to get to 2002 Finals

I was at those games in the Meadowlands, as my firm had playoff tickets. I was court side, and while the East was not as competitive as the West, the Piston STILL whupped the Lakers in the finals in '04. No matter who was hurt, from the way you tell it, the Lakers JV could have pulled it out, but they didn't. 

They still had Kobe, your top five guy. 

I thought he made people better?

Why didn't HE hold Billups?

They kicked the Lakers in the testies!

 

[member 2323]

We're not arguing about who is the best all around player are we? There are many all around players in NBA history. Not many of them have the career like that of Kobe nor win a ring. If John Stockton have half the physical ability of Kobe the Jazz would have won at least a ring. Kobe is a scorer , Jkidd is not. Can Jkidd put up 30, 40 points like that of Kobe while having to play point guard? Nope
The East was putrid from 00-03. Top to bottom the East can't hold a candle to the West. FACT
West: Kings, Spurs, Lakers, Portland
East: Pacers, Philly, Toronto, Detroit, Nets LOL
Team Nets beat to get to Finals. Boston, Charlotte, Pacer lol
It's a fact that making the Finals from the East was way easier than the West.
Piston didn't beat the Lakers until 2004 and they only beat the Lakers because Malone was hurt and Gary Payton/Fisher couldnt guard Chauncey Billup pick and roll. The Piston wouldn't have beat the Lakers if they were fully healthy top to bottom.
In the past 10 years. The Spurs and Lakers won a total of 9 rings. All west teams
That's why Lebron stay on the East. Playing on a stacked team + easier road to Finals.
You clearly didnt watch basketball if you say the East wasn't bad

Go take some ESL classes, then jump off a bridge.

The Lakers lost the 2004 Finals because of one reason: Kobe "Bean" Bryant.

 

[member 2323]

Here look up the opponent that the Nets played to get to the 2002 NBA Finals. LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NBA_Playoffs
Look at the team the Lakers had to beat to get to Finals in the same year.
Now remind you that the Nets got SWEPT in the Finals lol.
If the Lakers and Nets were to switch division. The Nets would be a 2nd round exit team and the Lakers would have easily sweep every other East team to get to 2002 Finals

Wanna talk about how it was 8-on-5?

Kobe Bryant has NEVER EARNED a championship ring.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Go take some ESL classes, then jump off a bridge.

The Lakers lost the 2004 Finals because of one reason: Kobe "Bean" Bryant.

no the reason the lakers lost is because malone was out, and on the inside the lakers couldnt handle the wallace's... and kobe didnt play like his usual self..

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

Sounds like excuses to me

 

[member 2323]

This is for you regard your distaste for Kobe successes
Jeal·ous
adj.
1. Fearful or wary of being supplanted; apprehensive of losing affection or position.
2.
a. Resentful or bitter in rivalry; envious: jealous of the success of others.
b. Inclined to suspect rivalry.
3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts.
4. Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.
5. Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.
I also didn't say Gasol didn't earn but Gasol all star appearance has a lot to do with Kobe. Same with Bynum.
Gasol 1 time all star in a span of 7 years. All of sudden playing with Kobe made him 2 trips in a row. Gasol admit to reporters that Kobe made him elevate his game.

You're honestly terrible.

These guys didn't make the All-Star game because of Bean Bryant, they made the All-Star game DESPITE Bean Bryant.

They made the All-Star game because of 2 things:

1) They were able to withstand Bean's ball-hogging and put up double-doubles.

2) They play in Los Angeles, one of the world's biggest markets. They play for the team with the biggest amount of bandwagon fans in the world. The All-Star starters are voted by the fans. It's simple math/logic.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Top ten players should be the best all around players, shouldn't they? Or do you think that only scorers should be considered top ten greats? Wilt was an all round player, as was Russ. Oscar was a walking triple double, and Kareem was a defensive stalwart, along with being an offensive force. Doc did it all, and as I stated before, he carried not one, but TWO leagues, while being at the top in rebounding and scoring in both the NBA, and ABA. What you are now seeing with LeBron, is a COMPLETE player, especially since his post game has vastly improved.

Kobe Bryant is not in that company, so how can he legitimately be a top ten player? Kidd, while not putting up forty, is a much more efficient player, and there is no doubt about that. With weapons, he is lethal. Give him the weapons that Kobe has had over the years, we'd definitely have him in the Magic Johnson category.
I was at those games in the Meadowlands, as my firm had playoff tickets. I was court side, and while the East was not as competitive as the West, the Piston STILL whupped the Lakers in the finals in '04. No matter who was hurt, from the way you tell it, the Lakers JV could have pulled it out, but they didn't. 

They still had Kobe, your top five guy. 

I thought he made people better?

Why didn't HE hold Billups?

They kicked the Lakers in the testies!

you're comparing a pg to a sg, is basically comparing apples and oranges.. wilt was mainly a scorer and rebounder and russ was mainly a defender.. both were not passing as much.. and if you're supposed to be a allround player you be able to do everything.. but imo it is not about the best all around athlete.. because you're a pg, means you'll never lead the league in rebounding or blocks, does that make you less of a player? no. if you are the best at your position, then that's what you are. jordan is def. #1 shooting guard, kobe is #2 in nba history and the 2nd best shooting guard in nba history should not be a top 15 player..

 

[thegoldenchild]

I used "was" because we were talking about a specific time frame in the past tense.
I said several times in this post that Kobe is an elite scorer in the present tense.
Y'all so sensitive
And Stockton and Jordan can easily be compared. Jordan was a much better all-around player. Open and shut case.
What was so hard about that?

jordan is a much better all around player than stockton based on what? scoring points? yes, but stockton was a pg and it wasnt his job to drop 40 a night.

stockton has records in steals and assists.He holds the NBA's record for most career assists (15,806) by a margin of more than 4,000, as well as the record for most career steals (3,265). He had five of the top six assists seasons in NBA history (the other belonging to Isiah Thomas). He holds the NBA record for the most seasons, games, and consecutive games played with one team, and is third in total games played, behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Robert Parish. He missed only 22 games during his career, 18 of them in one season. He played in 38 games where he tallied 20 or more assists.

On defense, Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Jason Kidd, who is currently active.

led the league in assists 9 years in a row..

so you might think jordan is the much better player and that it is an easy choice, but it is closer than you think. again different positions, means different stats so comparing them is stupid..

 

[longstroke]

you're comparing a pg to a sg, is basically comparing apples and oranges.. wilt was mainly a scorer and rebounder and russ was mainly a defender.. both were not passing as much.. and if you're supposed to be a allround player you be able to do everything.. but imo it is not about the best all around athlete.. because you're a pg, means you'll never lead the league in rebounding or blocks, does that make you less of a player? no. if you are the best at your position, then that's what you are. jordan is def. #1 shooting guard, kobe is #2 in nba history and the 2nd best shooting guard in nba history should not be a top 15 player..

WAIT! Are you crazy?

 Wilt led the league in ASSISTS one year!

So if you are going to put Kobe Bryant in your top ten, who are you going to compare him to?

You do know that if you place Kobe there, you'd have to move someone out, someone that may not play his position, right?

Ten players, all time. Magic, Bird. Who does Kobe move out? Kareem, Doc, Oscar. Who does he move out? Not one of them are shooting guards. Mikan, Wilt, Russ, three centers, so you don't want to compare all around, right? You can't get rid of them. Not the same position. Jordan. He is the only one who plays that position.

When LeBron's career is over, Durant's as well, Kobe's fans are going to have a rough time with this same argument.

. 

 

[essential1]

Kobe Bryant has NEVER EARNEDa championship ring.

What does that even mean

 

[goldenchild9]

I used "was" because we were talking about a specific time frame in the past tense.
I said several times in this post that Kobe is an elite scorer in the present tense.
Y'all so sensitive
And Stockton and Jordan can easily be compared. Jordan was a much better all-around player. Open and shut case.
What was so hard about that?

jordan is a much better all around player than stockton based on what? scoring points? yes, but stockton was a pg and it wasnt his job to drop 40 a night.

stockton has records in steals and assists.He holds the NBA's record for most career assists (15,806) by a margin of more than 4,000, as well as the record for most career steals (3,265). He had five of the top six assists seasons in NBA history (the other belonging to Isiah Thomas). He holds the NBA record for the most seasons, games, and consecutive games played with one team, and is third in total games played, behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Robert Parish. He missed only 22 games during his career, 18 of them in one season. He played in 38 games where he tallied 20 or more assists.

On defense, Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Jason Kidd, who is currently active.

led the league in assists 9 years in a row..

so you might think jordan is the much better player and that it is an easy choice, but it is closer than you think. again different positions, means different stats so comparing them is stupid..

Brah....

Minutes played is a measure of skills now, most consecutive seasons on one team?

Playing with the #2 points man in history for 17 years not being factored in...

Rebounding, leadership, ball IQ, Jordan's defense (#3 in steals, versatility on D) etc, etc. etc.

Stockton was a better passer than Jordan, thats it.

Jordan was better at every other facet of the game. Stockton had more steals but MJ was a better defender, he is #3 in steals all time from the SG position, which required him to guard more athletic players and a wider range of positions and he had almost triple the amount of blocks that Stockton had.

You're making my point for me.

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

2 GoldenChilds going back and forth

 

[sb]

Would you like to speak of his record THIRTY (30) missed field goals in a game that is matched by ZERO people?

Would you like to speak about this record:
[h1]Kobe Bryant to break the record for most missed shots in a career[/h1][h2]The Black Mamba should pass John Havlicek in the season 2013/14[/h2]

[h3]Kobe Bryant is on pace to break the record for most missed shots in a career, according to some fun research by John Hollinger at ESPN.
likely to fall is John Havlicek’s record for missed field goals, which Kobe Bryant should break at some point early in the 2013-14 season. My method gives him a 97 percent chance of setting the mark, which essentially means that barring an injury Kobe will hold the record. His current rate is 866 misses a season and he’s only 2,204 short of the record.

Bryant may not own this one for long, however, as several younger players have established a shot to re-break it once he’s moved on. LeBron James (33.3 percent chance to set record), Durant (23.8 percent) and Carmelo Anthony (23.7 percent) all stand a chance to surpass Havlicek in the later parts of their careers.[/h3]

and because he has the bad records that makes his 30k average?

 

[do be doo]

Can Goldenchild, and Goldenchild9 please not argue, confuses the **** outta me.

AC, do not create that MJ overrated thread, that isn't the point, don't stoop to their level.

Yeah thats why I aint go on no twitter rant like you.

Glad you're finally growing up.

 

[essential1]

Would you like to speak of his record THIRTY (30) missed field goals in a game that is matched by ZERO people?


Would you like to speak about this record:

[h1]Kobe Bryant to break the record for most missed shots in a career[/h1]

[h2]The Black Mamba should pass John Havlicek in the season 2013/14[/h2]

[h3]Kobe Bryant is on pace to break the record for most missed shots in a career, according to some fun research by John Hollinger at ESPN.

likely to fall is John Havlicek’s record for missed field goals, which Kobe Bryant should break at some point early in the 2013-14 season. My method gives him a 97 percent chance of setting the mark, which essentially means that barring an injury Kobe will hold the record. His current rate is 866 misses a season and he’s only 2,204 short of the record.


Bryant may not own this one for long, however, as several younger players have established a shot to re-break it once he’s moved on. LeBron James (33.3 percent chance to set record), Durant (23.8 percent) and Carmelo Anthony (23.7 percent) all stand a chance to surpass Havlicek in the later parts of their careers.[/h3]

and because he has the bad records that makes his 30k average?

Just ignore that Jordan missed more than 824 shots a year in his career. And that Kobe will have played the equivalent of 2 seasons more than Jodan.


FYI if Lebron goes on his current rate, and plays through 34

7,900- 8,000 missed after this season.

807 average on his first 9 seasons... 807 x 6 = 4,800

He'll be at 12,800 through age 34. He'll be at #4. If he plays 1 more season he'll be #2.


That Kobe stat is nothing more than he has been a high scorer for a LONG period of time.

 

[longstroke]

"He doesn't shoot the same percentage [.455] as Michael [.497]. He has the same characteristics as Michael, but he's not the same player. It takes nothing away from him -- he's a great player in his own right."

http://www.foxsportswest.com/msn/03...n-Lakers-c/landing_lakers.html?blockID=440081

 

[essential1]

It's a statement about the absurdity of using missed shots..

When it equates to nothing more than the length at which a player was a top scorer.

Hondo was a 43% FG shooter.. In which he never took 1 3 point shot.. NOT ONE....


Malone, Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe all in the top 6 of most missed shots.. What do they have in common? 30,000 points.

Other two Elvin Hayes & Havlicek 26K & 27K in points

 

[goldenchild9]

Kobe is really living off Jordan's legacy.

He's a great scorer and looks like an MJ doppelganger on the court, which blurs people's vision and assessment of his game but he's nowhere close to the same caliber of player Jordan/Magic/Bird/Olajuwon were.

Kobe is not that much better that Paul Pierce and his contemporaries.

Look at the numbers.

 

[essential1]

Kobe is really living off Jordan's legacy.

He's a great scorer and looks like an MJ doppelganger on the court, which blurs people's vision and assessment of his game but he's nowhere close to the same caliber of player Jordan/Magic/Bird/Olajuwon were.

Kobe is not that much better that Paul Pierce and his contemporaries.

Look at the numbers.

Career Player Efficiency Ratings

Kareem 24.58
Magic 24.11
Malone 23.9
Hakeem 23.59
Bird 23.50
Kobe 23.48
Oscar Robertson 23.17


Paul Pierce 20.61
Carmelo 20.47


I would love to hear the nonsense like he's not much better than Paul Pierce with any NBA analyst, or even any barbershop outside of Boston. The hilarity that would ensue. (I'm glad you edited out Melo though)

 

[akajae]

Would you like to speak of his record THIRTY (30) missed field goals in a game that is matched by ZERO people?


Would you like to speak about this record:

[h1]Kobe Bryant to break the record for most missed shots in a career[/h1]

[h2]The Black Mamba should pass John Havlicek in the season 2013/14[/h2]

[h3]Kobe Bryant is on pace to break the record for most missed shots in a career, according to some fun research by John Hollinger at ESPN.

likely to fall is John Havlicek’s record for missed field goals, which Kobe Bryant should break at some point early in the 2013-14 season. My method gives him a 97 percent chance of setting the mark, which essentially means that barring an injury Kobe will hold the record. His current rate is 866 misses a season and he’s only 2,204 short of the record.


Bryant may not own this one for long, however, as several younger players have established a shot to re-break it once he’s moved on. LeBron James (33.3 percent chance to set record), Durant (23.8 percent) and Carmelo Anthony (23.7 percent) all stand a chance to surpass Havlicek in the later parts of their careers.[/h3]

and because he has the bad records that makes his 30k average?

Kobe still setting records

 

[goldenchild9]

Pierce:

22 pts, 6.0 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 0.6 blocks, 1.5 steals

.447 FG%, .369 3pt%, .808 FT%

Kobe:

25.5 pts, 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.5 steals

.454 FG%, .338 3pt%, .838 FT%




Kobe is a slightly better player than Paul. He just has that added offensive arsenal and athleticism but they aren't that far removed.

The bigger difference in perception is Kobe's mannerisms look like Jordan's and he played with Shaq.

 

[essential1]

Let's take starter stats.. Because you're misleading the first two years again.

From 1999/00 Kobe has started 1027 of 1032

Pierce began in 1998/99 1042 of 1045.


Kobe

27.4 ppg 5.7 RPG 5.1 apg 45.5% FG 33.7% 3Point 84.7% FT


Pierce
22.0 ppg 6.0 rpg 3.8 apg 44.7/36.9/80.8



It's not remotely close.... And no person who has ever successfully watched and analyzed basketball would say it is even remotely close.

 

[goldenchild9]

Get out of here with that man...how you just gonna subtract the first 2 years from a players legacy?

Those years when he was shooting up airballs off the bench count towards his legacy as well. Just like Bron, STAT and Dwight's impressive HS to the pro Rookie years count towards theirs.

Everyone has their own path to greatness, you can't cut and paste parts of that story together to make it look better.

Take away Paul's first 2 seasons as he adjusts to the league and he's averaging close to 24 points a game for his career....so it's still essentially the same numbers if you play fair.

They're both 20+ point scorers. With Kobe averaging about 3/4 more points a game on 3 more shot attempts per game.

 

[powerballin]

Paul Pierce is underated and a HOF player....but even he knows he aint messing with that boy Kobe

 

[goldenchild9]

Paul Pierce is underated and a HOF player....but even he knows he aint messing with that boy Kobe

"I have an opinion, I have a right to have one and that’s the way I feel. I felt I’ve played against the best over the years and felt right now that I’m the best player in the world." - Paul Pierce July 2008