IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[darthska]

I don't think there's a set of criteria that anyone has that they can formulate into a standard equation.

Do you have an equation for why you like the food you do? An equation I can look at and go "Yep, guarantee he'll like this" if I were to make a new dish based off that equation? Sure, you might have preferences towards certain tastes, but a standard, 'always' true equation for your preferences? Impossible.

So goes it with fandom/criticism.

Dr. J changed the game. You can't standardize that. I've contended w/ people before that Magic would have done what Dr. J did if Dr. J hadn't done what Dr. J did, but the bottom line is... Dr J did it. And when I think of him... and I think this is true for most... I don't so much think of his talent; I think more of his overall contribution.

Shaq was a dominant force. Period. I could throw out stats to show much of a problem he was, but in reality, stats don't tell the WHOLE story, which is why I seldom use stats ALONE in my stances. Look how high Antwawn Jamison is on the all time scoring list; look at some of the names he's ahead of. Bam, according to a stat, he's an all time great! Yeahno.

There was a time when basketball 'belonged' to Dr. J. There was a time when it was clear Shaq was a huge (literally) problem for everyone else. Jordan owned the league in the 90s. Magic captivated everyone in the 80s. And even people who had short runs... Bird, Moses, etc... they still had their time, even if it was just 15 minutes.

Kobe never had that. He never had that time where he was THE MAN, either 'The Man' of the league, or THE SINGLE DOMINANT FORCE in a Finals, or anything. He's had little stretches... but they were just in scoring, nothing else. That stretch where he went bananas w/ the 40/50/60 point streaks, the 81 pt game... an excellent scoring run, but it didn't shut everyone else in the league down and catapult him to the front of everyone's mind the way other greats have done. And being the opening topic on SportsCenter is not being catapulted to the front of everyone's mind.

He's never 'owned' any part of the game, to where... he was... IT.

And you can't quantify that. I can tell you how many triple doubles and championships Magic has, but I can't quantify his contribution to the game, his dominance w/ a smile that everyone loved. I can throw some Dr. J ABA/NBA numbers into a tidy reply, but I can't make an equation for how Kobe fell short of captivating everyone according to that Dr. J equation; it doesn't exist.

I'm a huge David Robinson fan, but I never argue him as a GOAT... or even a contender... for the same reason. Drob has a 70+ point game, couple championships, couple gold medals. Did you know he's the ONLY PLAYER IN LEAGUE HISTORY to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocks at some point in his career (not all in the same year) AND ALSO BE ROTY his rookie year AND ALSO be DPOY at some point; only guy to do all that. GOAT? Hardly. Not even close. He never 'owned' the league, or any portion of basketball. HIGHLY effective and productive Spurs employee, and a great guy. But doesn't belong in the discussion.

No, I didn't just compare Kobe to Drob, but have fun laughing at that.

And no, I didn't just say nobody was ever afraid of Kobe or Kobe never did anything special, but that's another interpretation I'm sure will be made and scoffed at.

"Those who don't get it, don't get that they don't get it."

I'm aware. Thyat's why I don't spin my wheels. But you asked a question; there's my answer, fwiw.

 

[CP1708]

No, that's good, that's a very good reply, and honestly was not aware of the David stat.

To double check tho, Kobe never "owned" the NBA in any stretch? You're sure of that?

What about Bird, or Kareem, did they ever own it for a period of time?

Reason I ask, if you slot those 5-6-7 guys first, all time, that's fine. Now comes 8-9-10. And they would beeee? So if one rates in that range, how can that be overrated? Because people think of him 3-5 slots higher?

 

[xx hpdv iii]

XX HPDV III: *warned* (trolling)

This thread... any thread... is not intended for you to defend others calling you a troll, nor is it intended for you to express who has troll credentials.

"Damn, ska, it's almost like you only want us to talk about whatever topic has to do with whether or not Kobe Bryant is overrated" said everyone who gets it.

So I get warned for saying that other people are trolling, not me.

But the other guy calls me a troll, and doesn't get a warning.

Okay.

 

[SORIANOTRON]

how you overrated when you didnt even come into this league as a starter?

 

[mister friendly]

I don't think there's a set of criteria that anyone has that they can formulate into a standard equation.

Do you have an equation for why you like the food you do? An equation I can look at and go "Yep, guarantee he'll like this" if I were to make a new dish based off that equation? Sure, you might have preferences towards certain tastes, but a standard, 'always' true equation for your preferences? Impossible.

So goes it with fandom/criticism.

Dr. J changed the game. You can't standardize that. I've contended w/ people before that Magic would have done what Dr. J did if Dr. J hadn't done what Dr. J did, but the bottom line is... Dr J did it. And when I think of him... and I think this is true for most... I don't so much think of his talent; I think more of his overall contribution.

Shaq was a dominant force. Period. I could throw out stats to show much of a problem he was, but in reality, stats don't tell the WHOLE story, which is why I seldom use stats ALONE in my stances. Look how high Antwawn Jamison is on the all time scoring list; look at some of the names he's ahead of. Bam, according to a stat, he's an all time great! Yeahno.

There was a time when basketball 'belonged' to Dr. J. There was a time when it was clear Shaq was a huge (literally) problem for everyone else. Jordan owned the league in the 90s. Magic captivated everyone in the 80s. And even people who had short runs... Bird, Moses, etc... they still had their time, even if it was just 15 minutes.

Kobe never had that. He never had that time where he was THE MAN, either 'The Man' of the league, or THE SINGLE DOMINANT FORCE in a Finals, or anything. He's had little stretches... but they were just in scoring, nothing else. That stretch where he went bananas w/ the 40/50/60 point streaks, the 81 pt game... an excellent scoring run, but it didn't shut everyone else in the league down and catapult him to the front of everyone's mind the way other greats have done. And being the opening topic on SportsCenter is not being catapulted to the front of everyone's mind.

He's never 'owned' any part of the game, to where... he was... IT.

And you can't quantify that. I can tell you how many triple doubles and championships Magic has, but I can't quantify his contribution to the game, his dominance w/ a smile that everyone loved. I can throw some Dr. J ABA/NBA numbers into a tidy reply, but I can't make an equation for how Kobe fell short of captivating everyone according to that Dr. J equation; it doesn't exist.

I'm a huge David Robinson fan, but I never argue him as a GOAT... or even a contender... for the same reason. Drob has a 70+ point game, couple championships, couple gold medals. Did you know he's the ONLY PLAYER IN LEAGUE HISTORY to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocks at some point in his career (not all in the same year) AND ALSO BE ROTY his rookie year AND ALSO be DPOY at some point; only guy to do all that. GOAT? Hardly. Not even close. He never 'owned' the league, or any portion of basketball. HIGHLY effective and productive Spurs employee, and a great guy. But doesn't belong in the discussion.

No, I didn't just compare Kobe to Drob, but have fun laughing at that.

And no, I didn't just say nobody was ever afraid of Kobe or Kobe never did anything special, but that's another interpretation I'm sure will be made and scoffed at.

"Those who don't get it, don't get that they don't get it."

I'm aware. Thyat's why I don't spin my wheels. But you asked a question; there's my answer, fwiw.

I get what you're saying but by that stretch only Wilt and Jordan have really ever "owned" the game as a singular force.

For Wilt they can changed many rules because of him, I cant think of any other people that has happened to.

Jordan changed the game from a big mans guy to wing oriented game.

But those other guys you mention....Dr.J, Magic, Shaq and Bird. I telling you without a doubt there are kids and teenagers who feel the same about Kobe, the way you feel about those guys. To them....Kobe captivates....hes their it. Same with Lebron...hes their it.

Thats the reason why there are so many Kobe vs Lebron....Lebron vs Kobe arguments. Because they are captivating the audiences for like past 7 years or so.

They are this generations..... Magic vs Bird


I assume you watched Kobe's ascension as you were a teenager or adult. I would guess you're within the same age group as Kobe. So youre viewing it thru a different spectrum. It hard to feel the same level of captivation of something that you felt when you were a youth.


Im not judging your views or anything

im just trying to have a good debate

 

[sea manup]

maybe i have my history wrong but kareem did "own" the league in the 70s right? theres somewhat of a black spot in my knowledge of nba history between the early celtics and the 80s (other than the one lakers title and a few knicks ones). I do agree that numbers alone cant determine where a player ranks all time, but i also think that everyone has a bias and it shows when we have threads like this. if we are only looking at resume i think that kareem is the greatest player of all time. in my life time kobe is the greatest player i have ever watched, of course the fact that 80% of the nba games i watch are lakers games has something to do with it, but the amount of borderline impossible shots he takes and makes is something that i will always remember. sure some people dont like that kind of basketball and theres nothing wrong with that, but i have gotten to watch someone who i think is the greatest scorer of all time (will get into this later) AND despite him "shooting his team out of more games than he wins

" i have still gotten to see my team win 5 championships. 

to cps post about potential, i think that players should be ranked on exactly what they did while playing not what they could have done. it doesnt matter if you think tmac could have won 5 chips on the lakers, he didnt. it doesnt matter if kobe would have won nothing if the hornets kept him, he didnt. sure its great as fans to watch in awe at amazing talent but success in life is a combination of talent, luck and hard work. it shouldnt matter which of those factors you think had more of an influence on what a player did, at the end of the day he did X Y and Z while another player didnt. I also think that things like "shaq could have been so much more if he wasnt so lazy" should not take away from what he did in the NBA

at the end of the day as a lakers fan, im just happy that my team has won more championships while kobe has played for us than your favorite player and his team 

 

[nako xl]

Dr. J changed the game. You can't standardize that. I've contended w/ people before that Magic would have done what Dr. J did if Dr. J hadn't done what Dr. J did, but the bottom line is... Dr J did it. And when I think of him... and I think this is true for most... I don't so much think of his talent; I think more of his overall contribution.

...

He's never 'owned' any part of the game, to where... he was... IT.

And you can't quantify that. I can tell you how many triple doubles and championships Magic has, but I can't quantify his contribution to the game, his dominance w/ a smile that everyone loved. I can throw some Dr. J ABA/NBA numbers into a tidy reply, but I can't make an equation for how Kobe fell short of captivating everyone according to that Dr. J equation; it doesn't exist.

Serious note:

Because I've seen his name mentioned around the forum a few times, I have to say I think Dr. J is overrated.  Was he ever really the best player in the world? I take ABA statistics with a grain of salt because of the division of the leagues and talent, and Julius never dominated the NBA and skills wise never developed a perimeter game even though the 3 pointer had become a big part of the league in the 80s.  You wanna talk about most overrated players ever.

If he ever was considered the most dominant force in the league, it's because people were holding on to this fanciful misconceived memory of him as a player that he never really was and he just faced a ton of less athletic guys so he made it look good.  Super athletic in the 70s and early 80s? Certainly.  The best basketball player in the world?  Possibly never.

I also think it's naive to think players like Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki (or maybe it was KG) and Allen Iverson haven't had as big an impact on basketball as Dr. J did in the 70s.

(And yes I realize Jordan birthed Kobe and VC but the best under 21 basketball players right now probably never saw Jordan play. They grew up in the Kobe era.  Russell Westbrook is the player he is because of Kobe.  Demar Derozen, Damian Lillard, even Lebron -- because of Kobe.  They may not emulate his game entirely.  And learned from his mistakes.  But we are in the Kobe generation.  To say he hasnt had the impact of all the players you named isn't only misinformed, it's naive.  Or willfully blind...)

 

[noblekane]

Is kobe bryant overrated? No. Because being rated is a matter of opinion and will never be fact. No matter how many stats you throw out there. These arguments are just our opinions. Most are biased opinions going both ways.

There is no factual top 5, top 10, top 20.

This is kind of like the religion thread. Nobody will be changing their beliefs anytime soon.

 

[jc619er]

Not overrated, just not the GOAT. He'll go down as a top 50 player and be in the hall of fame but will never be GOAT.

 

[acbboyz84]

No... because Kobe Bryant shouldn't even be a number one scoring option with his career 45% shooting.

So a guy who's capable of putting up 40, 50, 60 even 81 points shouldnt be a number one scoring option?
Answer this question

How come no team pay JR smith to be their go to guy?

 

[acbboyz84]

Also, the people in this thread that are saying that it's farfetched to believe that Paul Pierce is in the same league as Kobe Bryant or that it's farfetched to suggest that Jason Kidd would have accomplished equal to or more than Kobe Bryant given the same rosters & coaches as Bean... those people have a lot more troll credentials than I do.

But you wouldn't admit that because you're in denial about your favorite superhero, Robin.

GM and coaches would have pick Robin Bryant over KIdd and Pierce with no hesitation.

 

[mister friendly]

Is kobe bryant overrated? No. Because being rated is a matter of opinion and will never be fact. No matter how many stats you throw out there. These arguments are just our opinions. Most are biased opinions going both ways.

There is no factual top 5, top 10, top 20.

This is kind of like the religion thread. Nobody will be changing their beliefs anytime soon.

Now that is the deepest post in this thread

Its reminds me of that Pitchfork skit on Portlandia.... Basically that's all that needs to be said.

 

[flyerthandelta]

Kobe Bryant 2005 2006 Mix The Return Of Kobe - YouTube​

35.7 PPG on 45% from the field | Kobe Season > And it's not even close

 

[nako xl]

Since some of you guys love to quote them and get mad when people

at them as a source

As per Bleacher Report:

There is no doubt that the 2006 NBA season was Bryant’s best season. Bryant had his best points per game average that year, and one of the best point per game averages in NBA history. In that year, Bryant slaughtered the Toronto Raptors with an 81-point performance, destroyed the Mavs in three quarters with a 62-point performance and set a franchise record for the most 40-point games ever by a Laker.

Bryant’s poor reputation had a huge boost that year. The Black Mamba reconciled with rival Shaquille O’Neal, and brought the Lakers back in the playoffs with a terrible cast (young Andrew Bynum, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker).  

Forget the first round exit in the playoffs, this was Kobe’s biggest year in his career. He converted critics into fans, improved his image in a lot of ways and drew some new fans to the NBA when those people heard that some guy scored 81 points in a game.  

He also averaged 5 rebounds, 5 assists, and 2 steals a game and was all nba first team and all defensive first team, won western conference player of the month twice (the only player to do that), but finished 4th in MVP voting (entirely because of his teams record.)  Steve Nash didn't win player of the month once.  Not once.  No other player in the league won it twice.

"But he shot them out of games!  The Lakers always lost when Kobe played Kobe ball! They would have won many more handily without him shooting the way he did!"

He scored 65 points on 23 for 39 shooting to steal a 5 pt win against Portland in a game that the rest of his team did their darndest to lose.  the second leading scorer in that game was Lamar Odom with 15 on 7 for 14 shooting and Mo Evans (

) 95% of people in this thread probably don't even remember who Maurice Evans is.


"But they were a 7th seed!"

Yes.  A team that boasted a starting line up of Lamar Odom, Brian Cooke (alternating with Luke), Kwame Brown, and Smush Parker was a SEVENTH SEED.  Let that sink in.

Of the players on that roster besides Kobe, only 5 are still in the league: Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Rony Turiaf, Brian Cooke and Luke Walton

"But they lost to Phoenix in the first round. And it was entirely Kobe's fault."

Kobe averaged 28 pts, 6 rbnds, 5 asts, on 50% shooting that series.  While only attempting 20 shots a game.

The second leading scorer was Lamar Odom who had a great series averaging 19 pts, 11 rbnds, 5 asts on 50% shooting, then Luke Walton and Kwame Brown with 12 a piece.

In game 6 of that series, Kobe had 50 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals.  Lamar added 22. Tim Thomas dropped 21 off the bench.  That was the difference in the game.  That is not Kobe's man.

In game 7 Kobe had 24 points again on 50% shooting.  Lamar had 12 pts 5 rebounds on 5 for 14 shooting.  Luke stepped up with 16, surprisingly.  The rest of the team had 38 points.  COMBINED.  38.

Leandro Barbosa alone for Phoenix came off the bench with 26.

"But they should have never been in a position to lose that series!!!"

Kobe shot a team that would have won the lottery without him into a near upset of the the #2 seed in the West that was led by the MVP Steve Nash.

In game 5 (what could have been the decisive victory for the lakers in that series) Kobe put up 29 pts 7 rebounds 5 assists on 60% shooting.  Lamar again showed up with 19pts 15 rbnds on 50% shooting himself (though a bit of that came in garbage time.)  No one else even suited up unless you count Kwame Brown who had 14 points and 3 rebounds.  The lakers lost by 17.

But before any of you can say it, "yeah, their problems in 2006, were Kobe's fault."

 

[SneakerProSr.]

What position did Leandro Barbosa play in that series?

And why didn't the all defensive team player stop him from going off since he's a lock down defender?

 

[nako xl]

What position did Leandro Barbosa play in that series?

And why didn't the all defensive team player stop him from going off since he's a lock down defender?

he was the back up point guard. sometimes the two guard when on the court with nash.  and he averaged all of 14 points in 32 minutes a game that series.

Barbosa had 11 pts, 22 pts, and 26 pts in the last three games of that series.  Kobe had 29pts, 7 boards, 5 assists and 50pts in the first 2 of those games.  The rest of the team didn't show up.  For better or worse, Kobe wasn't on Barbosa in game 7.

The Lakers lost that game because the rest of the team besides Odom disappeared and NO ONE D'd up Diaw or Leo.

 

[nako xl]

More stats from that game:

The Lakers team outside of Kobe (who shot 50% from the field), shot 32%. Keep in mind, that this percentage was based on shots that were, in large part, either wide open (because Kobe was double teamed every possession of the 2nd half) or several feet away from the basket if contested. Besides Kobe and Walton, the remaining Lakers shot 1-16 from the 3 point line. No Laker in the front court had more than 5 rebounds against Boris Diaw when he was on the court. Only one Laker player had more than 2 assists.

 

[flyerthandelta]

What are y'all talking about F the game!!!! We talking about that season Kobe 05-06' Season > and it's not even close!!!! Shut this damn thread up plz mods

 

[nako xl]

And before anyone says I can think of better modern offensive seasons by shooting guards, for instance "Jordan had better seasons in 88 and 89" I'm just gonna yell at the top of my lungs "Jordan never faced the zone and he couldn't shoot!!!" and run out of the room.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

And before anyone says I can think of better modern offensive seasons by shooting guards, for instance "Jordan had better seasons in 88 and 89" I'm just gonna yell at the top of my lungs "Jordan never faced the zone and he couldn't shoot!!!" and run out of the room.

And Kobe never faced hand checking,

Pistons in 2004 where able to get a little physical with him and you know how that turned out.

I'm lightweight sick Noble Kane of all people has the coldest post in the thread.

 

[acbboyz84]

And Kobe never faced hand checking,

Pistons in 2004 where able to get a little physical with him and you know how that turned out.

I'm lightweight sick Noble Kane of all people has the coldest post in the thread.

No physical defend could intimidate Kobe.

The Piston simply played better team defense and offense.

Watch the games.

 

[nako xl]

hand checking's overrated.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

There was a reason in 05-06 you had three players average over 31 points a game for the first time in 20 years.

 

[mertonhanks]

No physical defend could intimidate Kobe.

The Piston simply played better team defense and offense.

Watch the games.

Kobe struggled against those Pistons and both Celtics defenses. Its not about intimidation.

 

[sea manup]

Is kobe bryant overrated? No. Because being rated is a matter of opinion and will never be fact. No matter how many stats you throw out there. These arguments are just our opinions. Most are biased opinions going both ways.

There is no factual top 5, top 10, top 20.

This is kind of like the religion thread. Nobody will be changing their beliefs anytime soon.

its not about changing peoples opinions, everyone knows that aint happening. this thread is just where people come in and talk about kobe, its all in good fun