lugaw87
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I wonder how many shots took kobe to get that many points just curious
IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by goldenchild9,
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darthska
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I'm so glad 2 of the first responses after that "At 28" thing were Kobe fans discrediting that crap. Well done.
CP, to answer your last post w/ one word: no.
Can anyone w/ a brain prove that Magic was a better basketball player? No, they can't. Kobe is faster, stronger, jumps higher, shoots better, and without checking, pretty sure he's taller and has a bigger wingspan.
And James White in his prime was also far more athletic than Prime Magic.
Thing is... SPORTS... is not JUST... about ATHLETICISM. I've mentioned this SOOOO many times in different debates on here: if MEASURABLE ATHLETICISM was all there is to it, there would be no such thing as 'busts'. James White jumps higher, runs faster, and is taller than Prime Magic, but only an IDIOT would compare measurables and go "Yeah, I'll take White."
There's more to it than that, and you know that. Yes, Kobe is a much better athlete. So how did Magic accomplish more (in less time) in some areas or at least be equal (in less time) in so many areas? We know they both had all star casts and coaches, so can we just call the 'Assistance' category even, for the sake of argument? Someone says 'Shaq', someone else says 'Kareem'. Bring up 'Worthy', counter w/ 'Pau,' and so on. So they both experienced a supporting cast full of talent (I love LA
). But Magic's career is at least... at LEAST on par w/ Kobe's (I think it FAR trumps Kobe's, but for the sake of argument, I'll say 'at least on par'), despite Kobe being more athletic in virtually every way.
What I'm talking about here is the EXACT reason I can show up at any park around my way filled w/ HS kids FAAAARR more athletic than me, and I can still hang, and sometimes dominate.
Foolish of me to use a 'average Joe' example to explain something that has to do w/ pros? I already mentioned James White. I'll throw Jerry Rice out there. I've heard him say from his OWN MOUTH that there were times going into camp, he wasn't the fastest WR out there, but he knew he would dominate his teammates despite his inferior athleticism to them. How? Tricks, persona, psychology... things a stat sheet doesn't concern itself with. Down 3 in the waning seconds, we're 1-13 from 3 and Kobe shoots the last four 3-balls to end the game, missing all of them. We lose. Same situation, Magic hits Scott and Scott nails it. That counts... OFFICIALLY... as 1 little measly assist. That's all. Just a dime. No more. But PSYCHOLOGICALLY, that counts for SOOOOO much more, and while I can't quantify the impact, you can't deny the impact. But on paper? Just a '+1' in one little column.
Yes, at the game of basketball, I think Magic Johnson did it better. But no, I can't tell you a single athletic feat Magic has over Kobe.
CP, to answer your last post w/ one word: no.
Can anyone w/ a brain prove that Magic was a better basketball player? No, they can't. Kobe is faster, stronger, jumps higher, shoots better, and without checking, pretty sure he's taller and has a bigger wingspan.
And James White in his prime was also far more athletic than Prime Magic.
Thing is... SPORTS... is not JUST... about ATHLETICISM. I've mentioned this SOOOO many times in different debates on here: if MEASURABLE ATHLETICISM was all there is to it, there would be no such thing as 'busts'. James White jumps higher, runs faster, and is taller than Prime Magic, but only an IDIOT would compare measurables and go "Yeah, I'll take White."
There's more to it than that, and you know that. Yes, Kobe is a much better athlete. So how did Magic accomplish more (in less time) in some areas or at least be equal (in less time) in so many areas? We know they both had all star casts and coaches, so can we just call the 'Assistance' category even, for the sake of argument? Someone says 'Shaq', someone else says 'Kareem'. Bring up 'Worthy', counter w/ 'Pau,' and so on. So they both experienced a supporting cast full of talent (I love LA
What I'm talking about here is the EXACT reason I can show up at any park around my way filled w/ HS kids FAAAARR more athletic than me, and I can still hang, and sometimes dominate.
Foolish of me to use a 'average Joe' example to explain something that has to do w/ pros? I already mentioned James White. I'll throw Jerry Rice out there. I've heard him say from his OWN MOUTH that there were times going into camp, he wasn't the fastest WR out there, but he knew he would dominate his teammates despite his inferior athleticism to them. How? Tricks, persona, psychology... things a stat sheet doesn't concern itself with. Down 3 in the waning seconds, we're 1-13 from 3 and Kobe shoots the last four 3-balls to end the game, missing all of them. We lose. Same situation, Magic hits Scott and Scott nails it. That counts... OFFICIALLY... as 1 little measly assist. That's all. Just a dime. No more. But PSYCHOLOGICALLY, that counts for SOOOOO much more, and while I can't quantify the impact, you can't deny the impact. But on paper? Just a '+1' in one little column.
Yes, at the game of basketball, I think Magic Johnson did it better. But no, I can't tell you a single athletic feat Magic has over Kobe.
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Fair enough Ska, I see your point, only both of them both also have the drive, will, work ethic, etc that James White does not, therefore elevating them both.
So then, why is it ABSURD, to compare Kobe and Magic when Magic is great, but Kobe is overrated?
They have so many comparable feats, wills, clutch factors, just different ways about performing, one dishes, one scores, yet one is universally accepted top 5, the other is top 15-20-57 Pierce, Parker, JR Smith etc.
Is that not a bit of a contradiction?
So then, why is it ABSURD, to compare Kobe and Magic when Magic is great, but Kobe is overrated?
They have so many comparable feats, wills, clutch factors, just different ways about performing, one dishes, one scores, yet one is universally accepted top 5, the other is top 15-20-57 Pierce, Parker, JR Smith etc.
Is that not a bit of a contradiction?
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I was reading those Kobe numbers with the 
face the entire time...
face the entire time...
darthska
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Because I don't like the way Kobe Bryant plays*.
Least I'm being honest.
What, you want another long essay? I've never liked his style of basketball, not from the first day I saw him utter the words "Ive decided to take my talents to the NBA", before he was a Laker. Watched him airball vs. Utah, watched him regularly get 30+ on 20-25 shots, watched him alienate himself from teammates... I know, he was a HSer, they were grown men, whatever... and I just... didn't like his approach, what he brought to the table, my table. Then I go out and play ball and I'm stuck w/ some dude chucking and chucking and chucking and I'm getting all his boards (one of the things I do), and I hear dudes laughing like "Damn, dude's going Kobe out there, ain't he?
He's going to have to ice his elbow back at the house." Like cartune (I think) already mentioned, he's got dudes out there fading away w/ one leg out and their body behind the backboard going "KOOOBEEEE!!!", and that's not basketball, man. And I think it is NOOOO COINCIDENCE that we have turned our season around w/ him playing the most calculated, facilitating basketball I've ever seen from him.
That's all it is for me, all it ever has been. I don't like his brand, the way he plays. Straight up.
#dathonesty
*I love the way he's playing right NOW. And I've made that no secret in the Lakers thread, to the point where dudes are asking me if I bumped my head recently. Even in losses, I'm a fan of the current Kobe, no doubt.
Least I'm being honest.
What, you want another long essay? I've never liked his style of basketball, not from the first day I saw him utter the words "Ive decided to take my talents to the NBA", before he was a Laker. Watched him airball vs. Utah, watched him regularly get 30+ on 20-25 shots, watched him alienate himself from teammates... I know, he was a HSer, they were grown men, whatever... and I just... didn't like his approach, what he brought to the table, my table. Then I go out and play ball and I'm stuck w/ some dude chucking and chucking and chucking and I'm getting all his boards (one of the things I do), and I hear dudes laughing like "Damn, dude's going Kobe out there, ain't he?
That's all it is for me, all it ever has been. I don't like his brand, the way he plays. Straight up.
#dathonesty
*I love the way he's playing right NOW. And I've made that no secret in the Lakers thread, to the point where dudes are asking me if I bumped my head recently. Even in losses, I'm a fan of the current Kobe, no doubt.
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Because I don't like the way Kobe Bryant plays*.
Least I'm being honest.
What, you want another long essay? I've never liked his style of basketball, not from the first day I saw him utter the words "Ive decided to take my talents to the NBA", before he was a Laker. Watched him airball vs. Utah, watched him regularly get 30+ on 20-25 shots, watched him alienate himself from teammates... I know, he was a HSer, they were grown men, whatever... and I just... didn't like his approach, what he brought to the table, my table. Then I go out and play ball and I'm stuck w/ some dude chucking and chucking and chucking and I'm getting all his boards (one of the things I do), and I hear dudes laughing like "Damn, dude's going Kobe out there, ain't he?
That's all it is for me, all it ever has been. I don't like his brand, the way he plays. Straight up.
#dathonesty
*I love the way he's playing right NOW. And I've made that no secret in the Lakers thread, to the point where dudes are asking me if I bumped my head recently. Even in losses, I'm a fan of the current Kobe, no doubt.
My only answer to this is, how as a Lakers fan can you say how he plays isn't basketball when in turn he has been a perennial winner year in & year out ?
quik1987
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Phil turned the Lakers into a perennial winner year in and year out
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Because I don't like the way Kobe Bryant plays*.
Least I'm being honest.
What, you want another long essay? I've never liked his style of basketball, not from the first day I saw him utter the words "Ive decided to take my talents to the NBA", before he was a Laker. Watched him airball vs. Utah, watched him regularly get 30+ on 20-25 shots, watched him alienate himself from teammates... I know, he was a HSer, they were grown men, whatever... and I just... didn't like his approach, what he brought to the table, my table. Then I go out and play ball and I'm stuck w/ some dude chucking and chucking and chucking and I'm getting all his boards (one of the things I do), and I hear dudes laughing like "Damn, dude's going Kobe out there, ain't he?
That's all it is for me, all it ever has been. I don't like his brand, the way he plays. Straight up.
#dathonesty
*I love the way he's playing right NOW. And I've made that no secret in the Lakers thread, to the point where dudes are asking me if I bumped my head recently. Even in losses, I'm a fan of the current Kobe, no doubt.
My only answer to this is, how as a Lakers fan can you say how he plays isn't basketball when in turn he has been a perennial winner year in & year out ?
I agree with Ska.
The Lakers have been winners year in and year out. Kobe Bryant has contributed but he has never been on a mediocre team and when he was he got mediocre results.
That's a franchise thing not a Kobe Bryant thing.
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So cuz someone doesn't like the style he plays, the WAY he plays, then he can't be mentioned with Magic as GLOAT or one of the true NBA greats, thus overrated?
I see. That makes a lot of sense.
Or none at all really. But as you said, least you were honest. I'm good with that.
*Kobe is overrated and not one of the all time greats cuz I hate his style of play, don't matter that he actually has the skills, talent, and drive to match the greats, he's plays a style I don't agree with so he can't be near Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt etc.*
Basically what I figured. No one could actually make the point, or refute the claim that Kobe's overall game, defense included, matches up pretty well with Magic.
Ride Shaq
Phil made them great
Pierce, Kidd, Vince comparisons
Misses a ton of shots
And style
Those replies, those can be added with ease. None of these "basketball minds" in here could speak on the players themselves tho. Couldn't refute my point about the holes in Magic's game, just gloss over them and pretend the point was never made.
By a Laker fan, no less.
That's what this thread is.
Ska, Cartune, you guys at least make your points and back them. Even if I don't agree, you make good debates.
I see. That makes a lot of sense.
Or none at all really. But as you said, least you were honest. I'm good with that.
*Kobe is overrated and not one of the all time greats cuz I hate his style of play, don't matter that he actually has the skills, talent, and drive to match the greats, he's plays a style I don't agree with so he can't be near Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt etc.*
Basically what I figured. No one could actually make the point, or refute the claim that Kobe's overall game, defense included, matches up pretty well with Magic.
Ride Shaq
Phil made them great
Pierce, Kidd, Vince comparisons
Misses a ton of shots
And style
Those replies, those can be added with ease. None of these "basketball minds" in here could speak on the players themselves tho. Couldn't refute my point about the holes in Magic's game, just gloss over them and pretend the point was never made.
By a Laker fan, no less.
That's what this thread is.
Ska, Cartune, you guys at least make your points and back them. Even if I don't agree, you make good debates.
quik1987
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So cuz someone doesn't like the style he plays, the WAY he plays, then he can't be mentioned with Magic as GLOAT or one of the true NBA greats, thus overrated?
I see. That makes a lot of sense.
Or none at all really. But as you said, least you were honest. I'm good with that.
*Kobe is overrated and not one of the all time greats cuz I hate his style of play, don't matter that he actually has the skills, talent, and drive to match the greats, he's plays a style I don't agree with so he can't be near Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt etc.*
Basically what I figured. No one could actually make the point, or refute the claim that Kobe's overall game, defense included, matches up pretty well with Magic.
Ride Shaq
Phil made them great
Pierce, Kidd, Vince comparisons
Misses a ton of shots
And style
Those replies, those can be added with ease. None of these "basketball minds" in here could speak on the players themselves tho. Couldn't refute my point about the holes in Magic's game, just gloss over them and pretend the point was never made.
By a Laker fan, no less.
That's what this thread is.
Ska, Cartune, you guys at least make your points and back them. Even if I don't agree, you make good debates.
Kobe has great all-round game, nobody can refute that.
What people can refute quite easily IMO is how is uses his game to impact his team but you don't want hear that so there is no point.
I despise whenever people bring up skill sets in determining how great a player is like this is NBA 2K or some ****.
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Ok, what am I answering?
I see those numbers, random ones you chose, and that's fine. You realize that MVP's can be given and taken and are subjective, right? Or you really feel Nash at 15 and 11 was more valuable than Kobe at 35 and 5?
**** happens. Was D Rose really more valuable than LeBron?
Was Malone more valuable than MJ?
It's just as subjective as anything else. Magic and Duncan have more, that's great, they are both great players.
Can I pick numbers now? Just random numbers to pick and choose? What difference would it make?
On the court Kobe was an elite scorer, could lockdown his man (during his prime), get 5 boards and assists every single night for 16-17 years, play thru EVERY injury imaginable and bring it, 38-40 minutes a night EVERY night.
There are not 10 other guys that can say that. Magic, Bird, Shaq they weren't lockdown guys. Shaq didn't bring it for 40 EVERY night. Magic didn't have the range Kobe did. Bird was done after 10-11 seasons, he was gone. Magic was taken moreso than done. Not that Kobe is better or worse than them, some things they did better than Kobe, that's the point, they match up skill for skill.
He's right there in the mix. 6, 7, 8, 9, whatever.
That's not overrated, I'm sorry.
I see those numbers, random ones you chose, and that's fine. You realize that MVP's can be given and taken and are subjective, right? Or you really feel Nash at 15 and 11 was more valuable than Kobe at 35 and 5?
**** happens. Was D Rose really more valuable than LeBron?
Was Malone more valuable than MJ?
It's just as subjective as anything else. Magic and Duncan have more, that's great, they are both great players.
Can I pick numbers now? Just random numbers to pick and choose? What difference would it make?
On the court Kobe was an elite scorer, could lockdown his man (during his prime), get 5 boards and assists every single night for 16-17 years, play thru EVERY injury imaginable and bring it, 38-40 minutes a night EVERY night.
There are not 10 other guys that can say that. Magic, Bird, Shaq they weren't lockdown guys. Shaq didn't bring it for 40 EVERY night. Magic didn't have the range Kobe did. Bird was done after 10-11 seasons, he was gone. Magic was taken moreso than done. Not that Kobe is better or worse than them, some things they did better than Kobe, that's the point, they match up skill for skill.
He's right there in the mix. 6, 7, 8, 9, whatever.
That's not overrated, I'm sorry.
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Shaq in his prime was a greater defensive player than Kobe Bryant ever has been.
And its not that Kobe wasn't a better "man" defender its simply that fact that a good defensive big will always have more impact than a "lockdown" wing its the nature of basketball
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there's nothing to answer. what ska said was opinion and doesn't mean much beyond that.CP1708I've already tried this.
1 in 17 < 3 in 12
2 in 17 < 3 in 12
10 in 17 < 9 in 12
league leader in their individual skill:
2 in 17 < 4 in 12
But whatever.
Answer this please
Quote me so he can see it
kobe came in much younger than magic, less developed and didnt even get burn for two years. so all that he accomplished was really done in 15 years of play. magic came in on a STACKED team and had the benefit of playing on one his entire career. Kobe had bad teams at the start and bad teams in the middle.
magic also won a finals mvp just because kareem got hurt at the end. look at the numbers that series and that playoffs. kareem would have won that fmvp.
that league leader in individual skill thing is kinda dumb.
and we already established that giving magic props for leading the nba in steals means nothing defensively when you can say allen iverson WHO CAN'T GUARD ANYONE led the nba in steals 3x. it just means he gambled in passing lanes his entire career.
and say what you want about tim duncan being better than kobe (i dont even understand where that comes from or the point youre trying to make comparing the two) or about kobe riding shaq, but for several years (or at the very least 2002-2003) kobe was hands down the best player in the nba.
hands down.
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thats not fair. both worthy and kareem played with magic
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quik1987
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And Kobe played with Dwight Nash Jamison Artest pau
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They don't count.
jumpmanfromdabay
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I mentioned LeBron to a friend of mine who's a Kobe fan and instantly he got all mad
They really hate it that LeBron is better right now
They really hate it that LeBron is better right now
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Why? Cause he couldn't make them better?
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Michael Jordan played with Rip, Stack, Oakley, and Laettner. Couldn't make the playoffs. Twice.
Lebron made it to the finals with less. Hakeem won a chip with less.
How can Jordan be the best player ever?
Hell Jordan has NEVER won ANYTHING without another hall of famer and Phil Jackson coaching.
Jordan couldn't even sniff the finals without the best small forward in the world on his team.
Overrated. Lebron > Jordan.
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jumpmanfromdabay
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But they drafted that best Small Forward though
